Feelings!

[STT]

Oddly enough, that may be true. To have custody of one’s own eyes denies them the sense of sight in an inappropriate manner.

But if you mean that one can never gain over control their passions, for instance anger, then you are quite mistaken.

You agreed that we can control our feeling by practice. Didn’t you? Isn’t life senseless when you can control your feeling? You turn into a pure rational being. Nothing left to push you to live life.

 

[joeybaggz]

There is nothing such as Original Sin. We just evolved. There was no Adam and Eve.

Opinion or proven fact?? If factual, please provide chapter and verse.

Man was made in the image and likeness of God. There is no sin in God or His creation. For sin to have entered the world, there had to be a first or “original” sin.

I share your opinion that there was no Adam and Eve, at least in the way 1 Genesis is taught to first and second graders. But your assertion that we evolved demands proof that at some point we diverged from other life forms when it comes to intelligence, the ability to think logically, to make conscious choices as to behavior, and to employ the higher emotions not found in any other species.

If you are simply trying to make the point that you believe that the story of Creation is scripture is simply allegorical, please just say so. Your retort sound arrogant and imperious.

Shalom

 

[STT]

Those are some rather polarized options. How about “we consider and are influenced by our feelings among other considerations and options.”

Reminds me, there is a book titled “Descartes Error” about the role that emotions play in rational thought.

We don’t even bother to consider options if there is no feeling. Why should we do this or that? You are slave of your feelings when you submit to them and consider options.

 

[STT]

Not pure rational, but balanced between the two. Humans beings are not infinitely unlimited in their capacities as God is. We are a balance between extremes, while having the capacity, due to free will, to mess up the balance, to not recognize our limitations, to aim for or be influenced by extremes. As we allow ourselves to freely come back into balance, generally requiring a process of recognition, conviction, maturation/change, we begin to increasingly enjoy that state of balanced ordered that God created us to have.

The Church teaches that chaos began to reign after man’s first sin of disobedience, where he broke communion with God. Man was in one way or another separated or divided from God, from his neighbor, from himself, and from the creation surrounding him.

Feelings act like a engine. There is no tendency for any motion without any feeling. That means that you obey feelings once you consider to move on and live life.

 

[STT]

Argument in favor: That simple laws of nature could lead to beautiful order at many levels, from galaxies and stars that gathered from unimaginably thin gas, to stars that started with just hydrogen and produced and then dispersed all the known elements, to hospitable planets in stable orbits around stable stars, to life that harnesses energy from light and increases in complexity, to ecosystems, to communication, cooperation, law, and love. How great God is, who designed a universe in which such order and beauty arose from such simple origins.

We know that all complexity in life can be described in term of laws of nature. So your argument is not a good one. One needs to argue about the beginning. I am afraid that this is off topic but feel free to discuss it here.

 

[fhansen]

There is nothing such as Original Sin. We just evolved. There was no Adam and Eve.

If you believe that life/existence is strictly random or chaotic, then you’ll see yourself and others that way. But remember, in the midst of sometimes seeming randomness in life, there’s an absolute mountain of order everywhere we look. Complex systems, uniformity, predictability, patterns abound, in the movement of celestial objects, in our own bodies, etc, etc, that cannot even begin to operate without order/laws in place.

 

[STT]

Opinion or proven fact?? If factual, please provide chapter and verse…

Fossils. You can read more in here.

 

[STT]

If you believe that life/existence is strictly random or chaotic, then you’ll see yourself and others that way. But remember, in the midst of sometimes seeming randomness in life, there’s an absolute mountain of order everywhere we look. Complex systems, uniformity, predictability, patterns abound, in the movement of celestial objects, in our own bodies, etc, etc, that cannot even begin to operate without order/laws in place.

Of course all complexity can be described by laws of nature.

 

[fhansen]

Feelings act like a engine. There is no tendency for any motion without any feeling. That means that you obey feelings once you consider to move on and live life.

Balance…which was lost with Adam’s failure to recognize “the limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. [Because] man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.” (CCC 396) “In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good.” (CCC 398) This is the beginning of chaos and angst for man, stemming from the first inordinate act -of disobedience-where injustice/disorder already entered man’s world by that very act. It’s to doubt that God exists. It’s to doubt that* control *exists because we doubt that the Controller exists. The door was opened to any and all possibilities and potentialities, any and all thoughts and behavior whether foreign to man’s nature or not.

Reason is good. Feelings are good, and not in conflict; neither need be denied when man is restored to the wholeness, integrity, God designed for him to have. We’re here to learn that lesson, and how much we need Him in order to achieve it.

 

[fhansen]

The internal and external conflicts that we all experience here in this life aren’t the norm for man in his naturally created state.

 

[STT]

Balance…which was lost with Adam’s failure to recognize “the limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. [Because] man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.” (CCC 396) “In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good.” (CCC 398) This is the beginning of chaos and angst for man, stemming from the first inordinate act -of disobedience-where injustice/disorder already entered man’s world by that very act. It’s to doubt that God exists. It’s to doubt that* control *exists because we doubt that the Controller exists. The door was opened to any and all possibilities and potentialities, any and all thoughts and behavior whether foreign to man’s nature or not.

Reason is good. Feelings are good, and not in conflict; neither need be denied when man is restored to the wholeness, integrity, God designed for him to have. We’re here to learn that lesson, and how much we need Him in order to achieve it.

I am afraid I cannot understand how what you stated is a proper response to my argument. Do you agree that we cannot live life without feeling? Reason just give direction to our lives.

 

[STT]

The internal and external conflicts that we all experience here in this life aren’t the norm for man in his naturally created state.

Apparently there was a conflict in man to perform the first sin?

 

[joeybaggz]

Fossils. You can read more in here.

Not debating the evolutionary process of the development of the physical man. Evolution is to my way of thinking the tool the Creator makes and remakes his world. Man’s body is the result of the evolutionary process (apologies to you fundamentalists ); man’s soul is a different story.

It is your contention that there is no Original Sin I find flawed. Regardless of all the “proof” of evolution science cites, it cannot in any way prove that human cognitive thinking, establishment of moral principle, volitional consciousness, and higher emotion such a love, hope, trust, faith, etc is a process of evolution. The very fact that only humans possess reason and will, a living soul, and not one of the billions of other species that have evolved ( including the species that have become extinct) do, mitigates against the idea that sin entered the world through an evolutionary process and not a determined conscious choice. A one in ten, twenty, ??? billion chance. Talk about your ultimate long shot.

Shalom

 

[STT]

Not debating the evolutionary process of the development of the physical man. Evolution is to my way of thinking the tool the Creator makes and remakes his world. Man’s body is the result of the evolutionary process (apologies to you fundamentalists ); man’s soul is a different story.

There would be no need for soul if we accept the fact that evolution is a continuous process.

It is your contention that there is no Original Sin I find flawed. Regardless of all the “proof” of evolution science cites, it cannot in any way prove that human cognitive thinking, establishment of moral principle, volitional consciousness, and higher emotion such a love, hope, trust, faith, etc is a process of evolution.

Love, hope, trust, faith, etc. are physical. Either there was a need for God’s intervention or not. That would be a proof for existence of God if we could indicate a change in nature. There is no sign of intervention though. Things move according to laws of nature.

The very fact that only humans possess reason and will, a living soul, and not one of the billions of other species that have evolved ( including the species that have become extinct) do, mitigates against the idea that sin entered the world through an evolutionary process and not a determined conscious choice. A one in ten, twenty, ??? billion chance. Talk about your ultimate long shot.

Shalom

Human reason is physical. His will is a problem within materialism.

 

[GEddie]

Either we follow them blindly and turned into slaves or we ignore them and face a senseless life.

Why either/or?

 

[STT]

Why either/or?

There is no other option. You cannot consider feelings and ignore them at the same time.

 

[joeybaggz]

There would be no need for soul if we accept the fact that evolution is a continuous process.

Love, hope, trust, faith, etc. are physical. Either there was a need for God’s intervention or not. That would be a proof for existence of God if we could indicate a change in nature. There is no sign of intervention though. Things move according to laws of nature.

Human reason is physical. His will is a problem within materialism.

Then answer this, why hasn’t the common earthworm evolved to the point it can do open heart surgery? Why has a pride of lions evolved to the point of building condominiums with running water and sewers? Why has man evolved to love, trust, have faith and no other species hasn’t. Seems your laws of nature are pretty damn arbitrary or your logic pretty weak.

 

[joeybaggz]

There would be no need for soul if we accept the fact that evolution is a continuous process.

A continuous process toward what?

Seeking the truth - I think for you it is Buddhism. Good luck.

 

[joeybaggz]

Or may to ask a different question. If there is no need for a soul given evolution is a continuous process,are we evolving, or devolving? After all, a body without a soul is a corpse; or if it is animated, a mere animal, like the rest of the jungle.

 

[STT]

Then answer this, why hasn’t the common earthworm evolved to the point it can do open heart surgery? Why has a pride of lions evolved to the point of building condominiums with running water and sewers? Why has man evolved to love, trust, have faith and no other species hasn’t. Seems your laws of nature are pretty damn arbitrary or your logic pretty weak.

Adaptability is the key element for any species to evolve. The genes of any being is subject of constant change. This change either kill the being or give more advantage. You can spread your genes easier once the change gives you an advantage. You can of course become dominant once you learn how to take the advantage of situation. And you need reasoning for that, what we own.