Female Altar Servers

[THurifer2]

I
In my diocese, I know of only one parish that had two seminarians ordained in the same class in the past few years. The two from the same parish were from a county that is known for being more traditional in terms of the availability of Exposition of the Eucharist, Priest duties and fewer Special Ministers, but I think all of the parishes do use female servers. I would get from that there are other faithful influences besides an all male server group.

Gee just think it that paritcular parish had boys only…perhaps instead of 2 there might have been 10!

 

[scylla]

Yup, looks like they allow girls to serve.

So, clearly we have a parish with female altar servers which also is discerning a large number of vocations. Let’s hope we can put that particular argument to rest now.

Ummm, that isn’t 17 vocations for one parish, but rather 17 for the diocese which is made up of 46 parishes…

So Brendan is still waiting…

The facts are that Altar Girls originally were implemented in disobedience, as an abuse and obstinately promoted against Church rule. Disobedience is the sin of Adam which everyone should admit is wrong and should denounce if they are to call themselves Christian.

Female Deacons\Priests\Bishops are the goal of the most vocal supporters of Altar Girls who use the false notion that Male and Female are the same, insulting both men and women by insulting their own special roles as needing to be fulfilled by filling the others role.

It is allowed to be done, yet we should always look to see if it is the best thing to do for God. Just because we like it or it feels good doesn’t make it the best thing we can do for God.

God Bless,
Scylla

 

[Brendan]

I suppose only the Holy Spirit knows exactly what produces a priest. Maybe it is the free will of the young men that allows the influences to interfere. If there is a strong catholic community surrounding him, who don’t say things like “maybe you should go to college first and then see if you feel the same way” or “my son is so bright he could be a doctor or lawyer”, that would certainly help. In the same way the community should guard against excuses like not serving because there are girl servers or thinking the church is failing because of things like female servers.

In my diocese, I know of only one parish that had two seminarians ordained in the same class in the past few years. The two from the same parish were from a county that is known for being more traditional in terms of the availability of Exposition of the Eucharist, Priest duties and fewer Special Ministers, but I think all of the parishes do use female servers. I would get from that there are other faithful influences besides an all male server group.

And once again, that is my point.

What are the influences that produce large numbers of vocations.

I am NOT even saying that all male server are even an INFLUENCE, but a RESULT that comes from the same set of influences that produce large numbers of vocations.

I personally know of six parishes that each have more than 4 men currently in the seminary. Each also has a long history of producing vocations.

Each also has an all male altar server cadre.

Given the large number of parishes in this country that use female altar servers, it would seem a statistical likelyhood that there would be many parishes that have equally powerful influences towards vocations, and also have female altar servers.

That would disprove my hypothesis, but no one has been able to produce such a case.

All I have seen presented is a parish that has produced 1 vocation in 10 years, and was told that somehow this would put my argument to rest.

You come half way there at least ( as do other parishes I know in Detroit).

But that is still only half way there.

 

[Joysong]

Brendan,

Your logic is so illogical, sorry to say. I suppose in order to win your argument, the conclusion you are guiding us to is:

God only calls to the priesthood those in parishes with all-male altar servers. He never calls those that have female altar servers. Therefore, they should be eliminated. :doh2:

Ok, you win.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

Ummm, that isn’t 17 vocations for one parish, but rather 17 for the diocese which is made up of 46 parishes…
Female Deacons\Priests\Bishops are the goal of the most vocal supporters of Altar Girls who use the false notion that Male and Female are the same, insulting both men and women by insulting their own special roles as needing to be fulfilled by filling the others role.
Scylla

No way. Female Deacons\Priests\Bishops is not my goal. My pastor allows female servers and there is a need for servers in my parish, so if that makes me a supporter so be it. This morning at Mass the two scheduled male servers did not show. Two girls at Mass served in their place. There are so many beautiful expressions of the Catholic Church that should be influencing our children to grow up to be good catholics someday, including the boys who will become priests.

 

[scylla]

That is great that you repudiate the notion that women can become priests.

I have never said that everyone who supports female altar servers supports female ordination. I was pointing out the reasons to support only male altar servers, as it is giving more to Christ to do so. In addition to all the reasons provided in this thread it reinforces the repudiation of the dissent that is fostered by organizations seeking to destroy the male priesthood.

There are many girls who serve who do a good job, there are people who support them who do care about just serving the Church, they often are unaware of the disobedience and disdain for authority that the disseters promote.

May God bless you in your support of the Church
Scylla

 

[Brendan]

Brendan,

Your logic is so illogical, sorry to say. I suppose in order to win your argument, the conclusion you are guiding us to is:

God only calls to the priesthood those in parishes with all-male altar servers. He never calls those that have female altar servers. Therefore, they should be eliminated. :doh2:

Ok, you win.

When did I make any of those claims???

In fact I have already indicated that I know multiple parishes that have produced vocations and use altar girls. I can name 2 in Detroit that currently have 2 seminarians each, and they use altar girls.

I 100% agree that there vocations are NOT an exclusive dependant variable on male altar servers.

And could you point out exactly where my illogic is? (cut and paste please)?

We all agree that there are certain environmental conditions that influence a parish to generate large numbers of seminarians, correct?

I have noted that these contitions exist in 6 parishes I know of personally. I have also noted that these parishes all use exclusively males for altar servers.

I am unaware of any parishes that generate large numbers of seminarians that also use females in altar service.

My inquiry is plain.

Do the environmental conditions that generate large numbers of semiarinas also encourage all male altar servers?

I postulate that the premise above is true.

A simple refutation of my premise would be the existance of the type of parish we are discussing. (>=4 Seminarians and female altar servers.)

The posters here cover many different diocese, if my premise is incorrect, there should be many examples to choose from, correct?

 

[Joysong]

We all agree that there are certain environmental conditions that influence a parish to generate large numbers of seminarians, correct?

I have noted that these contitions exist in 6 parishes I know of personally. I have also noted that these parishes all use exclusively males for altar servers.

I am unaware of any parishes that generate large numbers of seminarians that also use females in altar service.

There’s the illogic, Brendan.

If X church = 6,
and Y church = 0
therefore hypothesis Z exists in church X and not in church Y.

i.e., leaving out of the picture God’s election and call, and other factors that may be causative. It is illogical in my opinion to assume that Z hypothesis is the very reason for zero in church Y.

I have no problem if you want to believe that, Brendan, and it is certainly your right to do so. As I said, I can tell you with a smile that you win. In your eyes it is true. Amen.

 

[ThuribleGuy45]

Alternatively:

God is love.
Love is blind.
Ray Charles is blind.
Therefore, Ray Charles is God.

See what can happen?

 

[MrS]

Alternatively:

God is love.
Love is blind.
Ray Charles is blind.
Therefore, Ray Charles is God.

See what can happen?

betcha Joysong is convinced

 

[Brendan]

There’s the illogic, Brendan.

If X church = 6,
and Y church = 0
therefore hypothesis Z exists in church X and not in church Y.

i.e., leaving out of the picture God’s election and call, and other factors that may be causative. It is illogical in my opinion to assume that Z hypothesis is the very reason for zero in church Y.
I have no problem if you want to believe that, Brendan,.

Here is my premise

X Chuch =6
X Church = male altar servers

Y Church =0
Y Church = female altar servers

Factors X,Y, Z exists in X Church and is the cause of both factors. In otherwords, the existance of X,Y and Z is causitive for both the vocations AND causitive for the altar boys.

You seem to be operating under the impression that a single cause cannot produce two results. That is untrue.

So one more time here…

I am NOT claming that all male altar boys necessaruily produce large numbers of vocations. I know from direct data that it untrue.

What I am claiming is that the very factors that produce large numbers of vocations will also encorage all male altarboys.

You might find it illogical, but it should be easy to refute. Simply produce a single case where either

Factors X, Y, Z are present, Seminarian >=4 and altar girls are present

or

Factors, U V W are present , Seminarians >=4 and altar girls are present.

Simple and easy to refute; ll you need to prove me wrong is 1 parish anywhere that has 4 or more seminarians and uses altar girls.

Call your vocations director, they will know if such a parish exists in your diocese. ( and that is true for anyone supporting Joy’s position).

It is the “other factors that may be causative” (as you put it) that CAUSE both results.

 

[Cristiano]

Factors X,Y, Z exists in X Church and is the cause of both factors. In other words, the existence of X,Y and Z is causative for both the vocations AND causative for the altar boys.

Now what you are saying makes sense. In the previous posts it appeared to me that you were mixing correlation with cause and in reality you were not. I did not want to get in this topic/debate/thread one more time because I expressed my opinion in the past. However, I am posting and quoting you because this is a nice and clear statement, that should help people to keep the emotions under control and focus on what the real cause is.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

I have never said that everyone who supports female altar servers supports female ordination

perhaps I misunderstood “Female Deacons\Priests\Bishops are the goal of the most vocal supporters of Altar Girls”? In any event, the girls who did serve for the boys who did not show up for their assignments were not being disobedient, since the pastor allows female servers, the priest Celebrating Mass allowed them, and their were no males willing to serve.

As far as the factors that go into large vocations, we are talking about humans and with humans it will never be black and white. Two parishes that offer daily Exposition, one may have a pastor who will go out of his way to talk to young men about the priesthood, the other pastor may pray more for vocations. I don’t think there is a formula. Things outside the church impact vocations as well, like the media. Most priests I have asked about this, from extremely traditional to very liberal don’t put too much stock into using all male servers. Of course, I have to admit this could be because they are trying to run parishes day to day and need the girls because there are not enough boys.

 

[Brendan]

As far as the factors that go into large vocations, we are talking about humans and with humans it will never be black and white.

True, specific cases of human behaviour are rarely predicable with any great accuracy.

But humans are remarkably predicable on large scale.

Of course, I have to admit this could be because they are trying to run parishes day to day and need the girls because there are not enough boys.

OK, that might be some of the factors there (and I agree there are many).

1. Parents (and Pastors) who actively encourage\support their boys into service at the altar
2. Parish with large numbers of eligible boys.

 

[scylla]

So I guess we know what the verdict is, as no one has produced a Parish which produces an abundance of vocations and has Female Altar Servers.

Of course I could be wrong, but we have gone through pages of this discussion with no positive results in this request.

Scylla

 

[Glennon_P]

So I guess we know what the verdict is, as no one has produced a Parish which produces an abundance of vocations and has Female Altar Servers.

Of course I could be wrong, but we have gone through pages of this discussion with no positive results in this request.

Scylla

Well, the verdict could be that I don’t have access to the records as to the numbers of seminarains produced by each parish as well as data on the status of female altar servers in each parish.

Just because it hasn’t been documented here so far means such a parish doesn’t exist. Nor does it mean that such a parish does, in fact, exist.

 

[awindrose]

Here is my premise

X Chuch =6
X Church = male altar servers

Y Church =0
Y Church = female altar servers

Factors X,Y, Z exists in X Church and is the cause of both factors. In otherwords, the existance of X,Y and Z is causitive for both the vocations AND causitive for the altar boys.

Hate to throw this in here, but my parish has had 4 young men enter the seminary in the last 6 years. We have a mix of boy and girl alter servers.

I suspect that it is the spirit of the parish that has more to do with the number entering priesthood then the gender of the servers.

 

[Brendan]

Hate to throw this in here, but my parish has had 4 young men enter the seminary in the last 6 years. We have a mix of boy and girl alter servers.

I suspect that it is the spirit of the parish that has more to do with the number entering priesthood then the gender of the servers.

That’s the BEST we’ve seen yet.

Are all 4 currently in the seminary, or have some been ordained?

 

[Brendan]

Well, the verdict could be that I don’t have access to the records as to the numbers of seminarains produced by each parish as well as data on the status of female altar servers in each parish.
.

Call\Email your vocations director and ask if any parishes in the diocese currently have 4 or more men studying towards the priesthood.

He should be able to tell you that right off the top of his head.

 

[Glennon_P]

Call\Email your vocations director and ask if any parishes in the diocese currently have 4 or more men studying towards the priesthood.

He should be able to tell you that right off the top of his head.

But such data wouldn’t tell us anything…because female altar servers are not allowed in this diocese, so we wouldn’t be of much use in reaching a conclusion!

My original post was referencing parishes across the U.S., not just in my diocese.