Female priests and patriarchy

[edwest211]

It appears that “equality” must be 50/50 without any concern for the Church or an understanding of the fact that it was founded by Christ.

 

[stpurl]

Cherry picking quotes from authors over a hypothesis really brings nothing to a discussion based on reality.

Unfortunately, too much of this thread’s discussion has wallowed into the modern “Wah you hurt my feelings because I feel excluded” territory.

 

[Thorolfr]

Cherry picking quotes from authors over a hypothesis really brings nothing to a discussion based on reality.

Unfortunately, too much of this thread’s discussion has wallowed into the modern “Wah you hurt my feelings because I feel excluded” territory.

I’m not Catholic, so it’s really none of my business whether the Catholic Church allows women to be priests. But I am a Christian and disagree that we can know that Jesus said anything that would prevent women from holding all the same positions as men. In my opinion, women were excluded from true positions of authority in both Protestant churches and the Catholic Church until the modern period because they were considered to be inferior to men, something which it is quite easy to document.

 

[RobertAdams]

On the other hand Jesus also never said women cant be priests, but somehow men don’t doubt the Church has the “authority” to make that call.

 

[edwest211]

Pope John Paul II had the last word. There is nothing more to say about the Catholic Church regarding this.

 

[Lea101]

I know but it has already declared equal dignity in both men and women. So it is very straightforward issue.

Yes and I’m saying that the interpretation of dignity isn’t infallible. Equal dignity definitely means that both will go to heaven (one gender isn’t favoured over the other), but the infallibility of this interpretation does not cover other areas. E.g. Law, roles. Because of this, you see a whole lot of differences in views about gender.

We rely on the Church yes, but their take on ‘equal dignity’ changed depending on the culture. That was what I was referring to. Hence why the early church held on the sexist views despite genuinely believing in the concept of equal dignity.

 

[edwest211]

The Pope had Scriptural reasons which override any attempts to agitate for something that does not apply. Jesus arranged everything as the Son of God. He was no mere man.

 

[Fauken]

For those who simply must have female clergy, the Episcopal communion waits with open arms. Heck, they’ll probably pick you up at your door.

That’s funny, because when I was church shopping before I was Catholic, I all but put myself out on a silver plate to the Episcopalians in my area and they seemed hardly moved by the fact I was looking to be baptized.

 

[Thorolfr]

The Pope had Scriptural reasons which override any attempts to agitate for something that does not apply. Jesus arranged everything as the Son of God. He was no mere man.

Protestant denominations that allow the ordination of women have Scriptural reasons for their decisions, too. And believe it or not, they also believe that Jesus was the Son of God and was no mere man.

 

[edwest211]

Catholics are not Protestants.

 

[JimG]

The Pope has the last word about the Catholic Church, but not about what Jesus taught.

Actually he does. Jesus established the Church in order to hand on his teachings through the ages. And the pope is the successor to Peter. His job is to preserve the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Lea101]

Kind of a stupid question:

Since the Church says it does not have authority to ordain women, does that mean that they were not given authority by God yet (in other words, God can allow it 300 years later as part of his larger plan), or that the issue of male only clergy forever is already settled and that any change would be a contradiction?

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

The Pope has the last word about the Catholic Church, but not about what Jesus taught.

Actually he does. Jesus established the Church in order to hand on his teachings through the ages. And the pope is the successor to Peter. His job is to preserve the teachings of Jesus.

And Protestants disagree which is why there was a Reformation, and why all of my ancestors for the last 500 years have not been Catholics. And although there are things I admire about the Catholic Church, I’m glad that I go to a church that allows women to be pastors and even bishops. A few years ago, I saw a sermon given by Elizabeth Eaton, the Presiding Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and was very impressed. I found her to be quite extraordinary. And about a month ago, I heard Katherine Jefferts Schorri speak. She’s the recently retired Presiding Bishop of the Episcopalian Church, and also impressive in my opinion.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

A few years ago, I saw a sermon given by Elizabeth Eaton, the Presiding Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and was very impressed. I found her to be quite extraordinary. And about a month ago, I heard Katherine Jefferts Schorri speak. She’s the recently retired Presiding Bishop of the Episcopalian Church, and also impressive in my opinion.

Being a priest is about much more that public speaking skills… I can think of several Catholic women who are excellent preachers.

 

[JimG]

Since the Church says it does not have authority to ordain women, does that mean that they were not given authority by God yet (in other words, God can allow it 300 years later as part of his larger plan), or that the issue of male only clergy forever is already settled and that any change would be a contradiction?

It would be a contradiction. Jesus was / is a man, so a priest must be a man. If Jesus had been a woman, priests would be women. In persona Christi applies.

 

[Thorolfr]

Being a priest is about much more that public speaking skills… I can think of several Catholic women who are excellent preachers.

I agree that a priest is about more than public speaking skills which is also true for a Lutheran pastor or a Lutheran bishop, whether male or female.

 

[JMMJ]

This is a false understanding. Jesus, in everything He did, acted in a completely sovereign manner and had no obligation to observe the customs of the times. Please do not lie.

Who said anything about obligation?

 

[Prodigal1984]

I guess it could be justified if only looking at scripture.
However the early writing The Acts of Paul has a section called The Acts of Paul and Thecla which was quite popular in the early Church that seems to show a woman who followed Paul baptising.
It wasn’t put in the Canon and seems to have been written in the mid second century however I never just throw off the New Testament apocrypha, the orthodox writings that is, as this actually shows what the early Christians may have regarded as tradition. Also many of our traditions are only referenced in the New Testament apocrypha such as Peter being crucified upside down etc.
Also, Thecla is a saint. She is more known in the east but to just disregard this writing because it isn’t in the Bible is wrong as it was quite popular in some areas. Some have made the claim it wasn’t put in the canon solely for the fact that it promotes female clergy.

 

[edwest211]

So far, I’ve seen a number of stir the pot posts. The Church was founded by Jesus Christ. This discussion should be done. Everyone has (name removed by moderator)ut to the Church but to even suggest it’s an old boys’ club, you’ll have to take that up with the founder or the Pope. So, write a letter to the Pope.

 

[graciew]

Sounds to me it is more of an issue with limits.
Out of all the arenas, out of all the spheres, juridictions, well… it has to be that one.The one where there is a “no”…