Feminism in Catholicism

[MagdalenaRita]

Yes I know that but it also had a double meaning. One of which was also that of being feminine.

 

[Mardymar]

I’m not really sure what you think I was saying. I might be reading you wrong, but it seems like you are making a defense toward me about an issue that I, myself, was defending. I’m pretty sure we’re on the same side.

 

[Sarcelle]

Absolutely. Outside of the right to vote, which women, feminist or not did fight for, many women did have bank accounts, go to college, own property and more long before the feminist movement came along. Even all the way back in the O. T. Deborah, a woman, was a judge at the city gates.

In the West maybe.

Not so in Asia and in Africa, even to this day.

By the way, @Lea101 is in Asia, Singapore to be exact.

 

[Mardymar]

feminism was very militant in the 70s as it is today.

“Militant”? What are you talking about? I wasn’t alive in the 70’s, so I can’t speak to that. But I’ve never met anyone who calls themselves a ‘feminist’ that can be described as ‘militant’.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

In the West maybe.

Yes, I was speaking of the here in the West, specifically the United States where most of feminism started and where women did and have the most rights, as far as women’s rights go.

Not so in Asia and in Africa, even to this day.

By the way, @Lea101 is in Asia, Singapore to be exact.

So after knowing this, IMHO there would be different issues to discuss.

“Militant”? What are you talking about? I wasn’t alive in the 70’s, so I can’t speak to that. But I’ve never met anyone who calls themselves a ‘feminist’ that can be described as ‘militant’.

.You need to go back and read the quote I was replying to in the conversation, in regards to the movement being militant against traditional femininity, which would also includes traditional family.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Some of them genuinely just wanted independence, others wanted to burn the whole place to the ground.

This is true but the independence, at least here in the United States, was an independence away from traditional and biblical family roles and that included freedom from children or free sex without the risk of pregnancy, which is why the abortion rights are so important to the feminist movement.

It also included freedom from the dogmas of the Catholic church. Feminists see the Catholic church as hindering their freedom, otherwise they would be right behind Amy Coney Barrett. They don’t care how high she goes up the career ladder. The only dogma they are concerned about living loudly in her is her standing with the Catholic church on abortion. They don’t care if she believes in transubstantiation or praying to the saints or statues or anything else.

 

[Mardymar]

Most of American’s know nothing about the Catholic church, especially in the parts of the country where the conversation about equality is a popular conversation. They’ll fight back if their attacked, but other than that they have no grudges against the church.

(Side note … this is a generalization. But I think the common thought agrees with me.)

I’m not going to talk to you about history, and especially not news. Those are both written by a very limited number of people who are looking for sensation rather than ideas. The idea, as I’ve learned it, is that people shouldn’t be judged for how they choose to live or who they choose to be. If they murder someone … of course, lock them up. But that’s not what we’re talking about. It wasn’t very long ago in the U.S. where even simple liberties weren’t judged, and in the majority of the population around the world those simple liberties are still denied. Thankfully, a lot of places in the world have made progress in recognizing these liberties, but the work isn’t done yet. The people who recognize the small liberties are just a minority of the global population, and the work toward the greater liberties has never really taken root in most parts of even the progressive nations.

Politics and semantics aside, there is a greater conversation going on here. It’s about not letting people use and bully each other.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Most of American’s know nothing about the Catholic church, especially in the parts of the country where the conversation about equality is a popular conversation.

I agree in part. It is true that most non Catholics do not know or understand Catholic dogma and teaching but most Americans do know of the Catholic church and that the Catholic church stands against abortion and same sex marriage. This is why Hillary Clinton said years ago when she was running for president that certain religious would have to change their beliefs. This is why the left is worried about Amy Coney Barrett

They’ll fight back if their attacked, but other than that they have no grudges against the church.

This also is not true. Jesus promised there would be persecution against His Church. It has happened and it is happening now. See video below. It is just one example.

I’m not going to talk to you about history, and especially not news. Those are both written by a very limited number of people who are looking for sensation rather than ideas.

I rarely read modern books on history. I was taught to go to the primary sources. In other words, listen to the people that were there and hear what they say.

The idea, as I’ve learned it, is that people shouldn’t be judged for how they choose to live or who they choose to be

I agree to a point. We can not judge a person, the why’s and reason’s in their hearts for doing what they do but we can judge an action if it is right or wrong based on Catholic Biblical teaching. Judging one’s heart is left to God alone.

. . . .

 

[Mardymar]

Where I’m at, people don’t think about about religion at all. They will listen and appreciate sentiment, but they don’t like religious logic. The views or history of the Catholic church has no meaning. Positive or negative.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Where I’m at, people don’t think about about religion at all. They will listen and appreciate sentiment, but they don’t like religious logic.

Not knowing where you live in the U.S., I cant really comment.

I cant think of anywhere, though, here in the U.S. that is completely void of religion.

 

[Mardymar]

I’m in a weird little pocket. In the 60’s a lot of people came to San Francisco to start their movement. Then, some people felt the movement was being hijacked and becoming political so they moved out of the city into more rural parts to live in peace. I was born in the more rural part.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Well, I am glad you are here. Welcome to the Catholic forum.

As you probably know there are a lot of Catholic churches in San Francisco and nearby. Also a lot of interesting Catholic history in California.

 

[Lea101]

There are many women who followed and today follow the feminist movement because of something they see they are fighting for but most women do not understand what the motivation is behind those pushing feminism.

Surely it’s on them for not being critical thinkers. I would expect that in the West, we would see some individualism going on. I’m also familiar with Phyllis and some of the nonsense she has spouted.

many women did have bank accounts, go to college, own property and more long before the feminist movement came along.

You might want to brush up on your history a bit to be honest. It was legal to not accept women on the basis of sex, and one needed a father or a husband to Co sign.

So, you can’t stand them?

Yep, but that doesn’t mean I am going to disagree with them on every single thing just because we disagree on a few big things. I’ve said in older threads, that when I agree with them, I’ll fight alongside them. When I disagree, I’ll fight against them. I think it’s dumb to see feminism as a group, and it’s something both leftists and conservatives tend to do instead of just a convenient word for a set of beliefs.

I am speaking of the feminist movement as a whole. If you do not do that or see it that way, you are not understanding what it is about.

You are definitely not thinking of feminism as an ideology here.

feeling left behind (what??)

Many feminists in the past, because of their desire to work to support their families or to fulfil their ambitions, have put down traditional ways of living. This made women who enjoyed the latter, or those who were only prepared for the latter, feel left behind. This was a valid concern in the past. In the present now, however, you’d find a random feminist on a street and there’s a high likelihood that she has no problems with other women being a stay at home mom as long as she freely chose it.

 

[Lea101]

independence, at least here in the United States, was an independence away from traditional and biblical family roles and that included freedom from children or free sex without the risk of pregnancy

Again this is where critical thinking comes into place.

Feminism has changed so many things.

Equal pay good. Illegal to discriminate on the account of sex good. A single woman can open a bank account without dad/husband good. Abortion bad. You get the point.

There were women who were simply tired of being told they couldn’t get the same pay as their male counterparts. Of course, they were treated as anti Christians for that too, if you look back at old writings.

Nobody here is saying that every single thing is pro Biblical values, so I feel like you’re just bringing up strawmans here. Even suffragettes were depicted as anti tradition, anti Christians etc. If you take abortion out of the picture, you’d see that women of the past and the present are branded this way. It’s very uncharitable and judgemental at times.

By the way, @Lea101 is in Asia, Singapore to be exact.

Western feminism has opened a lot of doors for us. But ironically, I would say we are definitely less misogynistic than the US.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I’m also familiar with Phyllis and some of the nonsense she has spouted.

In all charity, what you consider and insult as nonsense is what some consider wisdom. I for one, especially after listening to the debates she had and also many other women and some of the presidents of the U.S. feel the same.

You might want to brush up on your history a bit to be honest. It was legal to not accept women on the basis of sex, and one needed a father or a husband to Co sign.

I agree there were issues and it was difficult (here in the U. S.) but I know for a fact that there were women who went to college, owned property, and had bank accounts long before the feminist movement.

Many feminists in the past, because of their desire to work to support their families or to fulfil their ambitions, have put down traditional ways of living. This made women who enjoyed the latter, or those who were only prepared for the latter, feel left behind.

This works both ways. In the past and in todays world, women many times choose the career first and then try for the family next. Problem is, our bodies don’t wait.

In the present now, however, you’d find a random feminist on a street and there’s a high likelihood that she has no problems with other women being a stay at home mom as long as she freely chose it.

This is not true. One as seen by these threads that keep popping up and the comments and then I, myself as a part time worker have my feet in both worlds. I am constantly defending my choice to stay home and care for my family 90% of my time. It gets so old and over the years I have heard other women who either worked part time or stayed home completely have to do the same thing. Just the same as working women have to defend their work choice.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Equal pay good. Illegal to discriminate on the account of sex good. A single woman can open a bank account without dad/husband good. Abortion bad. You get the point.

I understand what you are saying but what I am saying is that you are giving feminism way too much credit and that is where we disagree. In all charity, you get the point?

As far as the rest, we will have to agree to disagree. A little bit of poison in a drink ruins the whole thing.

I lived through the feminist movement of the 70’s here in the U.S., saw what happened to families, how families were destroyed. I heard what I heard, read what I read. I am not being judgmental of others because I can not read their hearts but I know enough to stay away from feminism and choose to follow Christ and the Church instead. There isn’t anything in this world that could make me go back to the feminist movement.

I am not a feminist.

2 Peter 3:18 To Him be glory both now and unto the day of eternity.

 

[Mardymar]

The way you just talked has ‘feminism’ written all over it. The idea is non-jugementalism. It doesn’t seem like such a big deal now, but it is a thing,

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The way you just talked has ‘feminism’ written all over it. The idea is non-jugementalism. It doesn’t seem like such a big deal now, but it is a thing,

You’ll have to clarify what I said that is feminist. ???

Feminism is not about being non judgmental. As I said, one can not judge another person’s heart but based on Catholic teaching, one can know right and wrong.

Also, if I am being judgmental and that has feminism written all over it, then feminism is judgmental.

 

[njlisa]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

1935 The equality of men rests essentially on their dignity as persons and the rights that flow from it:

Every form of social or cultural discrimination in fundamental personal rights on the grounds of sex, race, color, social conditions, language, or religion must be curbed and eradicated as incompatible with God’s design.

@MagdalenaRita

CCC 2335 Each of the two sexes is an image of the power and tenderness of God, with equal dignity though in a different way.

And that’s the wonder of it all, isn’t it? Our roles in the Church differ. But we are equal in dignity.

To quote St. Thérèse of Lisieux:

The splendor of the rose and the whiteness of the lily
do not rob the little violet of its scent nor the daisy of
its simple charm.

If every tiny flower wanted to be a rose, spring would
lose its loveliness.”

 

[Mardymar]

Thanks! Yeah, there are missions here and lots of hispanic influence.