Few will make it to Heaven?

[Kurisu35712]

It is not the sacrament of penance that is “nearly useless”

It is the Grace of God, which is plentiful but yet fragile.

It is so fragile, it is broken by one mortal sin.

We’re in a war against the Devil, and our bullet proof jacket is fragile, made of glass or paper.

I’d argue with this. Our bulletproof vest is the infinite and unconditional Love and Mercy of the God who created us.

Unfortunately, many people seem to be using the flannel shirt of self-reliance.

God’s Mercy is not broken by one mortal sin. He loves even those in a state of mortal sin. What is fragile is our love of Him. The sacrament of penance is not a way to get God to love us again. It’s an opportunity to show that we take responsibility for our own fallibility and want to love Him back again.

Those who get into Heaven aren’t necessarily the ones who do all manner of wonderful things on their own. The one’s who will get in are those who stumble and fall and break down and then turn to God to pick them up and bandage them. The one’s who enter Heaven are the ones who realize that the value of Heaven is being able to be with the one Person who will always and has always loved you. The eternal peace and joy and glory in Heaven is not the goal, it’s the side effect.

I’m debating whether to post this, because I’m afraid it’ll be misinterpreted, but I’ll do it anyway. If I need to further expand, I will. The Saints are such because instead of giving up and turning away from God when they realized they can’t live on their own, they turned to God and realized that they couldn’t even love Him without His help. And by that I mean that, without God’s presence and care in our every action, even as seemingly simple as prayer, we will fail, because God made us to be with Him always. Like a best friend who never tires of seeing you and wants nothing more than to make you smile.

 

[Kurisu35712]

If the Church does indeed teach that God is infinitely merciful (and I may be incorrect that this is the case), then he will let anyone into heaven who wants to be there. They might have to spend 10,000 years in purgatory, but they will still get in. That is, of course, if God’s love is infinite and unconditional and he wants us to be with him in heaven.

If God’s mercy is finite and his love conditional, then in that respect he may be thought of as little greater than a human, which doesn’t seem right.

God is infinitely merciful. I’m pretty sure, don’t know the verse, that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which I’ve seen before as meaning rejection of God’s mercy. The people who go to Hell are those who are prideful enough to believe that God cannot love them and will not forgive them if they ask, and as a result, they never do. The unrepentant are just that. Unrepentant. They do not seek forgiveness and do not accept responsibility because they’re afraid. I’ve said it on other threads and I’ll say it again (might have even said it on this one), the fires that burn the souls in Hell are the same as those that give life to the saints in Heaven. Namely, the fire of God’s love.

If you could choose to be in a beautiful comfortable room with your best friend for the rest of eternity, I imagine you would. However, if you had to be in the same room as someone you hate for the same eternity, you would be bitter and resentful the entire time. The souls in Hell are people who are locked into a room with the one thing they hate more than anything else, which is God’s love for them. They are punished because they chose to be without God, who they require to have happiness. Without God, we cannot be happy, even if we don’t necessarily recognize God in the things we love and care about. Those who reject the love of God are rejecting the love of everyone who cares about them, because those relationships derive from God.

 

[Another_Andrew]

If the Church does indeed teach that God is infinitely merciful (and I may be incorrect that this is the case), then he will let anyone into heaven who wants to be there. They might have to spend 10,000 years in purgatory, but they will still get in. That is, of course, if God’s love is infinite and unconditional and he wants us to be with him in heaven.

If God’s mercy is finite and his love conditional, then in that respect he may be thought of as little greater than a human, which doesn’t seem right.

I’d like to add to that.

Consider this:
If people consign themselves to hell, they can only do so if they do not want to go to heaven. Thus, even those who don’t really want to go enough will get in, albeit with a considerable amount of purification in purgatory.

 

[ready]

If the Church does indeed teach that God is infinitely merciful (and I may be incorrect that this is the case), then he will let anyone into heaven who wants to be there. They might have to spend 10,000 years in purgatory, but they will still get in. That is, of course, if God’s love is infinite and unconditional and he wants us to be with him in heaven.

If God’s mercy is finite and his love conditional, then in that respect he may be thought of as little greater than a human, which doesn’t seem right.

Many people *want *to become doctors or famous athletes, but are not willing to do the work it takes to succeed and become one–they do not want to become a doctor or a winning athlete badly enough. Merely wanting to get into Heaven without doing the necessary work–that is, without wanting to get into Heaven badly enough–is the same thing as merely wanting to become a doctor or a winning athlete without doing the work required to become one or without wanting to become one badly enough. When one is not willing to do the hard work required to actually become a doctor or a great athlete, when one does not want to become one badly enough, one can NOT become one … just as one can not enter Heaven unless one wants it badly enough, for the road to Heaven is narrow, hard and constricted. God bless you.

 

[underacloud]

Yes, it means few are saved. All the doctors and theologians of the church have agreed that few are saved.

This sermon by St. Leonard of Port Maurice will explain why :
olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

Thank you for posting this, although you do not realise that this sermon does not say what you think it does.

St. Leonard’s concluding remarks:

Brothers, I want to send all of you away comforted today. **So if you ask me my sentiment on the number of those who are saved, here it is: Whether there are many or few that are saved, I say that whoever wants to be saved, will be saved; and that no one can be damned if he does not want to be. **And if it is true that few are saved, it is because there are few who live well. As for the rest, compare these two opinions: the first one states that the greater number of Catholics are condemned; the second one, on the contrary, pretends that the greater number of Catholics are saved. Imagine an Angel sent by God to confirm the first opinion, coming to tell you that not only are most Catholics damned, but that of all this assembly present here, one alone will be saved. If you obey the Commandments of God, if you detest the corruption of this world, if you embrace the Cross of Jesus Christ in a spirit of penance, you will be that one alone who is saved.

Now imagine the same Angel returning to you and confirming the second opinion. He tells you that not only are the greater portion of Catholics saved, but that out of all this gathering, one alone will be damned and all the others saved. If after that, you continue your usuries, your vengeances, your criminal deeds, your impurities, then you will be that one alone who is damned.

**What is the use of knowing whether few or many are saved? **Saint Peter says to us, “Strive by good works to make your election sure.” When Saint Thomas Aquinas’s sister asked him what she must do to go to heaven, he said, “You will be saved if you want to be.” I say the same thing to you, and here is proof of my declaration. No one is damned unless he commits mortal sin: that is of faith. And no one commits mortal sin unless he wants to: that is an undeniable theological proposition. Therefore, no one goes to hell unless he wants to; the consequence is obvious. Does that not suffice to comfort you? Weep over past sins, make a good confession, sin no more in the future, and you will all be saved. Why torment yourself so? For it is certain that you have to commit mortal sin to go to hell, and that to commit mortal sin you must want to, and that consequently no one goes to hell unless he wants to. That is not just an opinion, it is an undeniable and very comforting truth; may God give you to understand it, and may He bless you. Amen.

Even St. Leonard of Port Maurice, who is often cited in support of the position that few are saved, declines to give an opinion (my first bolding), and asks “what is the use of knowing” (my second bolding). Let’s listen to him, and instead focus on ensuring our own salvation.

 

[Another_Andrew]

Amen to St. Leonard’s conclusions.

@ready I’m afraid I must disagree with your comparison. There is no infinitely loving doctor waiting to bestow a doctorate on an aspiring doctor, nor is there an infinitely loving coach that wants you to be on his sports team with all his heart. Let’s say, for instance, I doubted that I could ever be in the NFL even though I wanted it, and so I didn’t practise as hard as I could. Let’s also say there was a coach who loved me as much as is humanly possible, and desperately wanted me to be on his team. He invited me to join the NFL, provided I let him drill me and improve my skills, promising that no matter what, I’d end up on the NFL, and it was just a matter of time. Do you think that I would refuse? How much less so if instead of the NFL it was heaven, and the coach was God (and I had hell as my other option)?

 

[CuriousAlways]

It seems so difficult to lift just one paragraph out of the Bible and try to define it by yourself? Other references shows God’s kindness and mercy - like that poor gal who was going to be stones to death and the lady at the well - wow. One would think on their own that these gals might never enter the Kingdom of God - but Jesus told them your sins are forgiven and to go and sin no more.

When the Bible talks about the path to the gates of heaven being narrow - they are - because we all have to work at following that path to those gates an it is not easy. The other “wider” path is often the one so many folks seem to be attracted to and take because it is so much easier - would be my guess and we really shouldn’t be guessing.

I am in favor of working really hard to squeeze into that narrow path and never give up hope - but keep your eyes on the Lord!

This sure is an interesting thread.

 

[bernardrichards]

I’ve found that talking in percentages is meaningless for this discussion.

Whether 99% of people reject God’s mercy or 1% rejects God’s mercy, is it really any better for you? You don’t want to be in Hell, full stop. Work your salvation with Fear and Trembling.

We know hell exists. We have a reasonable certainty people are in hell. You don’t want to be one of those people. Act accordingly.

 

[BobCatholic]

I’d argue with this. Our bulletproof vest is the infinite and unconditional Love and Mercy of the God who created us.

If we had a bulletproof vest, then we’d have to believe in Once Saved Always Saved, which we don’t.

God’s love alone does not get us to heaven, it is his Grace that gets us there. Love without grace = burning in hell for all eternity, but hey, God loves me. Big whoop…

What is fragile is our love of Him.

God’s grace is fragile, if one mortal sin breaks it.

I want to love God more…but I can’t seem to do it…

Those who get into Heaven aren’t necessarily the ones who do all manner of wonderful things on their own. The one’s who will get in are those who stumble and fall and break down and then turn to God to pick them up and bandage them. The one’s who enter Heaven are the ones who realize that the value of Heaven is being able to be with the one Person who will always and has always loved you. The eternal peace and joy and glory in Heaven is not the goal, it’s the side effect.

Then how do I make it there without the grace of final perseverance?

I’m debating whether to post this, because I’m afraid it’ll be misinterpreted, but I’ll do it anyway. If I need to further expand, I will. The Saints are such because instead of giving up and turning away from God when they realized they can’t live on their own, they turned to God and realized that they couldn’t even love Him without His help. And by that I mean that, without God’s presence and care in our every action, even as seemingly simple as prayer, we will fail, because God made us to be with Him always. Like a best friend who never tires of seeing you and wants nothing more than to make you smile.

If I can’t love him without his help, and I can’t love him now, that means he does not want to help me to love him. That breaks my heart.

I feel like I’m in a wild west town, bullets flying all over the place (shot by the devil and his minions) and all I have is a glass vest (God’s fragile grace) to protect me from those bullets.

One bullet, one mortal sin, smash…

I’m just going to have to live in a confessional for the rest of my life.

 

[BobCatholic]

Now imagine the same Angel returning to you and confirming the second opinion. He tells you that not only are the greater portion of Catholics saved, but that out of all this gathering, one alone will be damned and all the others saved. If after that, you continue your usuries, your vengeances, your criminal deeds, your impurities, then you will be that one alone who is damned.

I’m like this.

Imagine I’m a high school student that is applying for colleges but haven’t graduated yet. There is this one college nearby. It is very exclusive and only accepts those with excellent grades. I can’t go anywhere else (due to limitations on my life), so if I can’t get into this college, I can’t go to college period. This college is a metaphor for heaven.

So I get good grades (do good deeds) and try to get in.

Suppose I knew at day one of high school that I could never get in, because I got one too many B’s in class.

Fine, I’ll finish high school with mediocre grades at best, why bother working hard if I’m destined to fail?

But let’s say I knew I was getting in. That would put rocket boosters to my confidence and my GPA too. Not only that, I’d be taking AP classes so I can get college credit.

If I knew I was going to hell, why bother doing good? It won’t matter, game over, doom, despair, horribleness…

If I knew I was going to heaven, I’d be then trying to go further…now that I got in, let’s go for the next level of heaven. I’d take those AP classes while in high school in addition to trying to get better grades. I’d have a great motivation.

God’s grace is my ability to learn and get good grades (in this metaphor). It is not only on my shoulders, but rather the grace of God working through me.

 

[Another_Andrew]

I’m like this.

Imagine I’m a high school student that is applying for colleges but haven’t graduated yet. There is this one college nearby. It is very exclusive and only accepts those with excellent grades. I can’t go anywhere else (due to limitations on my life), so if I can’t get into this college, I can’t go to college period. This college is a metaphor for heaven.

So I get good grades (do good deeds) and try to get in.

Suppose I knew at day one of high school that I could never get in, because I got one too many B’s in class.

Fine, I’ll finish high school with mediocre grades at best, why bother working hard if I’m destined to fail?

But let’s say I knew I was getting in. That would put rocket boosters to my confidence and my GPA too. Not only that, I’d be taking AP classes so I can get college credit.

If I knew I was going to hell, why bother doing good? It won’t matter, game over, doom, despair, horribleness…

If I knew I was going to heaven, I’d be then trying to go further…now that I got in, let’s go for the next level of heaven. I’d take those AP classes while in high school in addition to trying to get better grades. I’d have a great motivation.

God’s grace is my ability to learn and get good grades (in this metaphor). It is not only on my shoulders, but rather the grace of God working through me.

This.

If I knew I had only a tiny, tiny chance of getting into heaven, why would I bother trying, throwing earthly pleasures away only to end up in hell? I would probably fulfill the minimum requirements in my spiritual life but not try hard. There’s no way I would be praying an hour a day if I didn’t think I had a good chance of getting into heaven when I died due to my many other faults.

 

[DanB146]

I made it as far as page 3 and had not seen this expressed yet -

I think the danger in putting a percentage or calculating the odds of “few” or “many” may be that we could fall into the trap of comparing ourselves to others and drawing conclusions from that - did we / can we “make the cut?” Judging is not ours to do.

I would personally love to see everyone saved - probably not likely. I can’t do much about that except for prayer and trying to reflect the light from blessings I’ve received in the hope it does some good. In the meantime, it’s my observation that daily Eucharist, daily prayer and frequent confession seem to have a very positive effect and I put my faith and trust in that.

 

[johnherro]

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it. ~ Matthew 7:13-14

How can this be taken to mean anything other than that <50% of people will go to Hell?

These verses used to bother me a great deal, until I asked a very good Jesuit priest about them. Of course, God wants all to be saved, and of course not all are saved. So for God, even one person going to Hell is too “many,” and however many go to Heaven, since not all are there, it’s too “few.” I surely hope that this dear priest’s interpretation is correct!

 

[ajcstr]

Then all the theologians and doctors of the church are wrong!

Is St. Thomas Aquinas wrong? What about Pope St. Gregory the Great? Or St. Augustine of Hippo? They all agree few are saved

They have all expressed their opinion/belief (which I happen to agree with) which should be a “wake up call” for all but I also agree they could be wrong - they are not infallible (yes - even the Pope as he mane no ex cathedra pronouncement as far as I know). God IS the only one who knows for sure. Meditate on this… Would anyone who knew the thief on the cross throughout his life have thought that he would go to heaven?

 

[ajcstr]

These verses used to bother me a great deal, until I asked a very good Jesuit priest about them. Of course, God wants all to be saved, and of course not all are saved. So for God, even one person going to Hell is too “many,” and however many go to Heaven, since not all are there, it’s too “few.” I surely hope that this dear priest’s interpretation is correct!

Well, start with these verses. I don’t think they say once you commit to following Jesus, now you have to chose the right path. Following Jesus is the path.

Look at the world - what percent of the population even gives a **** about choosing the correct path. How many people wake up in the morning/go to bed at night with the slightest thought of their Creator. I think that may partly be where the “few” comes in. Scripture doesn’t say few who seek God are saved.

 

[nealfjr]

I hope and pray I am one of “God’s elect”, but there are no guarantees. We can not on our own earn salvation, forgiveness or heaven and eternal life.
I can do little other than refrain form sin and live according to God’s will. I know I have failed miserably so far, so I will have to trust in God’s mercy and infinite goodness in allowing me to join him in heaven.

 

[Bill1940]

It would not be in our best interest to know how many will be saved or lost, or when the world will end, or when we ourselves will die, and so on. In His Wisdom, God keeps these from us.
There seems a risk here of rash judgment on a colossal scale, to suppose most souls are lost. We do so, as myopic mankind, blind to the Divine reality of God’s justice and mercy. And is the one separate from the other?
From the Cross Christ said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”. I believe this prayer included so often ignorant me and you.
Jonah was “angry with reason unto death” when God did not follow through with His threat to destroy Nineveh. But God put Jonah in his place with, “And shall not I spare Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons that know not how to distinguish between their right hand and their left, and many beasts?”

 

[ready]

It would not be in our best interest to know how many will be saved or lost, or when the world will end, or when we ourselves will die, and so on. In His Wisdom, God keeps these from us.
There seems a risk here of rash judgment on a colossal scale, to suppose most souls are lost. We do so, as myopic mankind, blind to the Divine reality of God’s justice and mercy. And is the one separate from the other?
From the Cross Christ said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”. I believe this prayer included so often ignorant me and you.
Jonah was “angry with reason unto death” when God did not follow through with His threat to destroy Nineveh. But God put Jonah in his place with, “And shall not I spare Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons that know not how to distinguish between their right hand and their left, and many beasts?”

I can not believe that you could think that the Church Fathers and the other Saints and Doctors of the Church who have taught the fewness of the saved are guilty of rash judgment–rash judgment is a sin. It is you rather than they who are rashly judging, for you say that it is “rash judgment on a colossal scale to suppose most souls are lost,” but this is exactly what these holy** Saint **experts have taught. Yes, Church Fathers and the other Saints and Doctors of the Church are the experts in theology, even if several of them hold no degree in theology. God bless you.

 

[agnes_therese]

I can not believe that you could think that the Church Fathers and the other Saints and Doctors of the Church who have taught the fewness of the saved are guilty of rash judgment–rash judgment is a sin. It is you rather than they who are rashly judging, for you say that it is "rash judgment on a colossal scale

No, he said “there seems a risk here of rash judgment on a colossal scale.” Not the same thing at all. So there’s no basis to accuse him of rash judgment.

. . . but this is exactly what these holy** Saint **experts have taught. Yes, Church Fathers and the other Saints and Doctors of the Church are the experts in theology, even if several of them hold no degree in theology.

And all that means is that we should give respectful consideration to their opinions. Canonization means they led a holy life; it does not mean that every word they said or wrote is infallible.

 

[ready]

No, he said “**there seems a risk **here of rash judgment on a colossal scale.” Not the same thing at all. So there’s no basis to accuse him of rash judgment.

And all that means is that we should give respectful consideration to their opinions. Canonization means they led a holy life; it does not mean that every word they said or wrote is infallible.

How can a person not rashly say that there is even a RISK involved when Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and Saints have taught this teaching in agreement, especially given that the Church has made certain that every canonized Saint’s teaching is error-free. There is only a risk to us when we do not heed the number of Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and Saints, who in agreement teach the fewness of the saved and who ARE the experts–not we. No, these people are not omniscient, but many of them are in agreement on this subject. From their great depth of knowledge of God and of man they have spoken, and they would not speak ANYTHING that is RISKY that could lead souls astray. I disagree with you and still see that the other poster was being rash, as it is rash to say that there is ANY RISK involved in heeding the Saints’ teaching on the fewness of the saved, given that many of them are in agreement. I have provided on this thread 101 quotes on the teaching of the fewness of the saved, and the only RISK involved to us in reading them is in NOT heeding them and taking them dead seriously. God bless you.