Few will make it to Heaven?

[Another_Andrew]

How can a person not rashly say that there is even a RISK involved when Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and Saints have taught this teaching in agreement, especially given that the Church has made certain that every canonized Saint’s teaching is error-free. There is only a risk to us when we do not heed the number of Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and Saints, who in agreement teach the fewness of the saved and who ARE the experts–not we. No, these people are not omniscient, but many of them are in agreement on this subject. From their great depth of knowledge of God and of man they have spoken, and they would not speak ANYTHING that is RISKY that could lead souls astray. I disagree with you and still see that the other poster was being rash, as it is rash to say that there is ANY RISK involved in heeding the Saints’ teaching on the fewness of the saved, given that many of them are in agreement. I have provided on this thread 101 quotes on the teaching of the fewness of the saved, and the only RISK involved to us in reading them is in NOT heeding them and taking them dead seriously. God bless you.

Remember that the Church Fathers and current holders of the title “Doctor of the Church” all lived before the revelation of Divine Mercy to Sr. Faustina.

Now, you say that the Church has made certain that every canonized saint’s teaching is free from error. Free from error does NOT mean infallible, or even right. It simply means that it doesn’t contradict Church teaching. Their opinions are still opinions, no matter how you want to spin it, and though they may have been wise men, their writings were not inspired and were subject to human error. The Church does not teach one way or another on how many people go to hell, so Catholics are free to believe either way, or to not take any stance at all.

 

[Bill1940]

I think it may be wrong, somewhat sinful, to assume any particular person to be in Hell. I know it is wrong, seriously so, to wish someone would be or go to Hell. So I keep my thoughts on Heaven and pray even for those long gone, knowing that God heard my prayer before the beginning of time.

 

[agnes_therese]

How can a person not rashly say that there is even a RISK involved when Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and Saints have taught this teaching in agreement, especially given that the Church has made certain that every canonized Saint’s teaching is error-free. There is only a risk to us when we do not heed the number of Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and Saints, who in agreement teach the fewness of the saved and who ARE the experts–not we. No, these people are not omniscient, but many of them are in agreement on this subject. From their great depth of knowledge of God and of man they have spoken, and they would not speak ANYTHING that is RISKY that could lead souls astray. I disagree with you and still see that the other poster was being rash, as it is rash to say that there is ANY RISK involved in heeding the Saints’ teaching on the fewness of the saved, given that many of them are in agreement. I have provided on this thread 101 quotes on the teaching of the fewness of the saved, and the only RISK involved to us in reading them is in NOT heeding them and taking them dead seriously. God bless you.

My point had nothing to do with your quotes. It has everything to do with your accusing another poster of saying something they CLEARLY did NOT say. Apparently you consider that a perfectly acceptable thing to do. I trust that you feel the same when/if someone does the same to you.

 

[ready]

My point had nothing to do with your quotes. It has everything to do with your accusing another poster of saying something they CLEARLY did NOT say. Apparently you consider that a perfectly acceptable thing to do. I trust that you feel the same when/if someone does the same to you.

I had thought that the post-er was calling it rash to judge that few souls are saved, which it is NOT, for not only a few holy Saints have taught the fewness of the saved. How many canonized Saints have taught that MOST souls are saved? None of them! Still I disagree with the post-er’s statement about colossal risk, as there is only a colossal risk when one does NOT heed the Saints’ teaching on the fewness of the saved, as many Saints have taught this, and NO CANONIZED Saint has ever taught that MANY souls get saved. God bless you.

 

[agnes_therese]

I had thought that the post-er was calling it rash to judge that few souls are saved, which it is NOT, for not only a few holy Saints have taught the fewness of the saved. How many canonized Saints have taught that MOST souls are saved? None of them! Still I disagree with the post-er’s statement about colossal risk, as there is only a colossal risk when one does NOT heed the Saints’ teaching on the fewness of the saved, as many Saints have taught this, and NO CANONIZED Saint has ever taught that MANY souls get saved. God bless you.

And again you refuse to stay on-topic. You made a false accusation against another poster, which you refuse to admit. End of story. Goodbye.

 

[ready]

Remember that the Church Fathers and current holders of the title “Doctor of the Church” all lived before the revelation of Divine Mercy to Sr. Faustina.

Now, you say that the Church has made certain that every canonized saint’s teaching is free from error. Free from error does NOT mean infallible, or even right. It simply means that it doesn’t contradict Church teaching. Their opinions are still opinions, no matter how you want to spin it, and though they may have been wise men, their writings were not inspired and were subject to human error. The Church does not teach one way or another on how many people go to hell, so Catholics are free to believe either way, or to not take any stance at all.

I have read Sr.Faustina’s diary twice and nowhere in it does it say that MOST souls get saved. People who read this book go away thinking things that it does not even say.

 

[ready]

And again you refuse to stay on-topic. You made a false accusation against another poster, which you refuse to admit. End of story. Goodbye.

In my last post to you I stated that “I HAD THOUGHT that the post-er was calling it rash that few souls are saved.” I had thought that he was seeing the Saints who have taught the teaching of the fewness of the saved as being rash. You see, I had admitted my mistake–I said I HAD THOUGHT something. God bless you.

 

[Used2beSherryG]

Why are some folks so anxious to say how many people will go to hell?

Try anxious about whether people are in hell. Those whom we love who have departed this life in what may have appeared to us as less than optimal spiritual health cause many to WORRY about their eternal salvation. Clearly, not everyone is going to heaven as Jesus has explained to us. We cannot know specifically of the state of someone else’s soul at the moment of their death. We pray for those who have died. Those who may be in purgatory.

 

[agnes_therese]

Try anxious about whether people are in hell. Those whom we love who have departed this life in what may have appeared to us as less than optimal spiritual health cause many to WORRY about their eternal salvation. Clearly, not everyone is going to heaven as Jesus has explained to us. We cannot know specifically of the state of someone else’s soul at the moment of their death. We pray for those who have died. Those who may be in purgatory.

THAT I understand. It’s this obsession with insisting that so few will go to Heaven and so many will go to Hell. We simply don’t know.

 

[Tom_Baum]

How many were saved by the Ark? Only 8

How many entered the promised land? Only 2

How many escaped from the fire of the City of Sodom? 4

Does anyone see the pattern? In every instance, few were saved. Why is this? Because we humans have a fallen nature, and eternal beatitude surpasses the natural state.

Are you saying that even when God became One of us and took ALL of EVERYONE’S SINS upon Himself on the cross that it was all in vain for the vast majority of God’s creation?

Are you saying that God Who is Omniscient came up with this wonderful, wonderful plan where the vast majority of God’s creation would be in a place of utter pain and despair, beyond any human being’s ability to conceive of, for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and you refer to this “God” as all loving and all merciful and all forgiving and a lot of other really fine adjectives?

I happen to believe that many of those who believe in God are in for much more of a surprise than many of those who do not believe in God.

I believe that God gives us a reason to hope and if one is going to hope, why not hope for something that is worth hoping for?

If all that one hopes for is for them personally to get to the “good place”, so to speak, than maybe, just maybe, one should raise their “vision”.

Seems that some think that many will receive God’s Justice, and the absolute despicableness of what some think this to be is mind-boggling, and that others will receive God’s Mercy, I believe that ALL will receive both God’s Justice and God’s Mercy.

I happen to believe that God’s Mercy and God’s Justice are so intertwined as to be ONE.

 

[Tom_Baum]

However, God is all-powerful and could withdraw his presence from hell .

And than again, maybe God could withdraw ALL those in hell and destroy hell!

Could be that God has a “reason” for hell other than what some of those in the past have said about those in heaven enjoying seeing those in hell.

Matter of fact, maybe God could throw hell into the “lake of fire”.

It is quite amazing, to me, how different people have different “takes” on a God Who is spoken of with such wonderful adjectives , is it to anyone else?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Yes.

Who was it that said the very flames of hell are fueled by God’s love?

Don’t rightly know who said it but it could be that when “the very flames of hell” which “are fueled by God’s love” burn away all of the “crud”, so to speak, that it is quicker than instantaneous that that individual’s hell becomes heaven.

Ever given any thought along those lines?

Quite a few do tend to underestimate God, Who happens to be a “Consuming Fire of Pure Love”.

 

[ready]

It would not be in our best interest to know how many will be saved or lost, or when the world will end, or when we ourselves will die, and so on. In His Wisdom, God keeps these from us.
There seems a risk here of rash judgment on a colossal scale, to suppose most souls are lost. We do so, as myopic mankind, blind to the Divine reality of God’s justice and mercy. And is the one separate from the other??

The Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church and other Saints who agree on the fewness of the saved are NOT being myopic or blind to the Divine reality of God’s justice and mercy when they say that few souls are saved, for they are the experts on God and on man and are very careful to teach only what is in accord with right reason and truth. They know about spiritual realities much more than we do, they are much holier and wise than we are. Let us not place ourselves above them and think that we know more or better than they, especially when many of them are in agreement and especially because they are Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and Saints. God bless you.

 

[Bill1940]

God bless you.

Thank you, Ready and God Bless you too.

 

[ready]

God bless you.

Thank you, Ready and God Bless you too.

You’re most welcome, Bill, and thanks!

 

[Tom_Baum]

Try anxious about whether people are in hell. Those whom we love who have departed this life in what may have appeared to us as less than optimal spiritual health cause many to WORRY about their eternal salvation. Clearly, not everyone is going to heaven as Jesus has explained to us. We cannot know specifically of the state of someone else’s soul at the moment of their death. We pray for those who have died. Those who may be in purgatory.

When Jesus was asked by the Apostles, “Lord, just who can be saved?”, or words to that effect, He answered, “With man it is IMPOSSIBLE but with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE”.

Seems to me that “ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE” just might include something that many seem to think to be impossible.

 

[Tom_Baum]

The Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church and other Saints who agree on the fewness of the saved are NOT being myopic or blind to the Divine reality of God’s justice and mercy when they say that few souls are saved, for they are the experts on God and on man and are very careful to teach only what is in accord with right reason and truth. They know about spiritual realities much more than we do, they are much holier and wise than we are. Let us not place ourselves above them and think that we know more or better than they, especially when many of them are in agreement and especially because they are Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and Saints. God bless you.

You wrote, “when many of them are in agreement and especially because they are Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and Saints.”

So do you think that we should go with the majority just because they are “in agreement”?

What if it is the minority that are not in agreement that are right, should we have went with them?

Maybe we should think and make up our own minds and not let others do our thinking for us.

By the way, the “experts” of Jesus’s day did NOT seem to always get it right.

Didn’t Jesus seem to have “problems” at times with the “experts” of His day?

 

[BobCatholic]

Are you saying that even when God became One of us and took ALL of EVERYONE’S SINS upon Himself on the cross that it was all in vain for the vast majority of God’s creation?

God, who’s Grace is abundant and sufficient for salvation, willed it so that grace is fragile.
One mortal sin, game over.

I feel like I am in the Wild Wild West, bullets flying everywhere (shot by the devil and his minions) and I am wearing glass (instead of a bullet proof jacket) - which is God’s grace.

A part of me wants to live in the confessional, and never leave. That’s the only way for me to get saved, is to confess immediately.

 

[ready]

You wrote, “when many of them are in agreement and especially because they are Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and Saints.”

So do you think that we should go with the majority just because they are “in agreement”?

What if it is the minority that are not in agreement that are right, should we have went with them?

Maybe we should think and make up our own minds and not let others do our thinking for us.

By the way, the “experts” of Jesus’s day did NOT seem to always get it right.

Didn’t Jesus seem to have “problems” at times with the “experts” of His day?

But, Tom, they are so far above us in wisdom and in knowledge. It is safest to heed what they say. God bless you.

 

[Another_Andrew]

What makes you think that they are so far above us? Their writings weren’t inspired. They may have been smart, but I would say that many of today’s philosophers are just as smart and equally well equipped to answer these questions.