fiance and i just had a huge fight and im in need of help!

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Both your points are well-meaning and protective of the young woman but fundamentally flawed.
  1. She is on the internet to get advice from complete strangers about whether to get married. That’s nuts. That is a trainwreck waiting to happen. Sorry, no other way to characterize it.
  2. Myself and most who have butted heads with her highness have done so out of genuine concern for her future - disobeying Christ is no way to start a marriage.
  3. We are also writing out of concern for the Church. She is dragging the Catholic Church through the mud in a public forum any non-Catholic may view or join. She is admitting to cohabiting. She has been told it is wrong and insists she will do so anyway up to the day of her marriage.
  4. Yes many have problems with priests or deacons who marry those in this state. Many are priests and deacons who will not marry them. If Tar had only one priest or deacon within many miles of her and that man refused to marry her because of her obstinate sin - as is his right - she might have go “priest shopping” - a sad solution to what she wants.
  5. She is doing what she wants. She is ignoring good advice from many here. She is harming our church with her public sin. That is scandal, and all the Catholics here who have called her out on it have that right.
  6. “emotional trainwreck” is neither a meanspirited jab nor an innacurate remark given her posts. This woman does not have it together, is getting great advice from many here to pause or call off her wedding until she is living in conformity with God’s law. Do you want me to lie to her and call her a mature and God-fearing good Christian.
No, she is headed for trouble and that is self-evident. I also find that those apologizing for her are forgetting that the interests of the Church and Christ come first.

Maybe those she knows in real life - not this cyberspace attempt to get justification for her sins will be as blunt with her.

If the truth hurts, let it hurt her because sometimes you have to be a little cruel to be kind - in the right measure.

Grow up Ashley. Do what these good people and your Deacon are advising you to do. Get married by a priest if you are able to, and stop living in sin - and telling all of us about it.
 
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George2:
I spoke to a monsignor at the chancery when I was trying to convince my friend not to cohabit.

He told me that the rules had been changed, couples living together could be married by the Church and that this a pastoral, not a canonical rule.

However, he noted that he does not marry couples who are cohabiting and that neither he or any other priest has too.

It is not a matter of canon law. It is a pastoral concern.

It is that priest or deacon’s call whether to administer the sacrament to that couple or not. Indeed there are many reasons why they could be denied it.

My criticism is not at the priest or deacon who will marry them. My criticism is that this woman is an emotional trainwreck - going on the internet to strangers for help one month before her wedding.

Also, you can’t deny she is committing the grave sin of scandal by telling Catholics and non-Catholics here that she is cohabiting.

If she is being allowed to be married despite her cohabitation, she should not be advertising that fact, even anonymously or in cyberspace as it harms the sanctity of marriage.

I wish she had an older or more conservative priest who would simply tell her to grow up and come back to him when she is done playing house.

In any case she is going to learn eventually. If she can’t sacrifice this little thing now, her marriage is going to be a disaster or at best an ongoing series of crises.

It is unmitigated selfishness. True love waits.

She is acting like a spoiled princess. This is a textbook example of KerryCafeteria Catholicism. She wants her cake and wants to eat it too. The rules don’t apply to her.
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Cry me a river…
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Sorry George, I believe your monsignor is wrong. I know one of my priest friends was told by our very orthodox bishop he could cannonically deny marriage to a co-habitating couple. If I’m not mistaken, I think my bishop also has a background in canon law.
 
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bear06:
Sorry George, I believe your monsignor is wrong. I know one of my priest friends was told by our very orthodox bishop he could cannonically deny marriage to a co-habitating couple. If I’m not mistaken, I think my bishop also has a background in canon law.
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So you agree with George? I’m confused–you both are saying priests can refuse to marry co-habitating couples.
 
*Any *priest can refuse to marry a cohabiting couple.

I did not say it was Church law. It is their pastoral decision. I am guessing that several things factor into their decision, including how scandalous it is - how many are scandalized by it, the likelihood that refusal might push them away from the Catholic Church etc.

It is certainly better to not lose them as Catholics so this is why many priests now marry these couples. But it is not the ideal.

They can also decide for pastoral reasons that the couple is too immature, not serious enough about their faith etc.

Not every situation a priest can or will face is written down in the code.

You are wrong. No priest is obligated to marry cohabiting couples.

It also makes me wonder why Tar is being being married by a Deacon.

Does the priest not want to marry you Tar?
 
It is not a canonical impediment to marriage, but no priest is obliged to marry such a couple if he does not want to.

Just as female altar acolytes are now licit, but no bishop has to accept their use in his diocese if he does not want to.

Many of you have the mistake idea that Tar has the right to be married. She does not. In fact, many priests would face no sanction from their bishop for simply saying “no I won’t marry you”.

Priests are pastors, not preprogrammed robots.
 
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j_arden:
So you agree with George? I’m confused–you both are saying priests can refuse to marry co-habitating couples.
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Good catch. My mistake. It should have read that he **couldn’t ** cannonically refuse marriage. It was canonically, not pastorally according to our bishop. I actually think our new bishop would be inclinded to let my priest friend refuse if it wasn’t canonically incorrect to do so. A priest may, however, delay a marriage. Why don’t you just ask the AAA forum. I’ll do a search. It may have already been answered.
 
It is common sense. Priests have consciences too. They can’t be forced to do certain things.

It might sound strange to non-Catholics reading my strong objections to Tar’s decision to wed, but I have absolutely no ill will towards the Deacon who will marry them.

It could be that the priest did not want to honour their choice by marrying them and let them get married albeit by a Deacon, a less profile wedding.

It could be that the Deacon is the only man available or it could be that Tar is pregnant and this is the best thing.

It could be that he talked to both of them, noted their spiritual immaturity and decided that if he refused to marry them, they would do what many do anyway - get a civil marriage, never go to church again and never raise their children Catholic.

That is the lesser of two evils approach many good priests have to take when marrying those who are obstinately disobeying Church law.

Take them now and hope they improve.

But I don’t think Tar should get married right now. Many here have given her excellent advice, and she keeps coming back with her own excuses why this and why that.

I agree with those who are telling her to make this sacrifice for the sake of her marriage and more importantly to honour Christ.

It boils down to this: Tar wants the man and the marriage more than she wants to please Christ.

That is problematic for the Deacon who might marry her and it is problematic for those Catholics around her who are obligated to witness to the truth.
 

Here’s a situation on the AAAof a Catholic wanting to marry a non-Catholic but the premiss is the same on being able to refuse marriage. Maybe this was what George was trying to say. Basically he can personally choose not to officiate but the Church cannot deny the marriage of a cohabitating couple. Their are reasons which fall under “consent” which they could such as age, maturity, etc which are ground for annullment. My priest friend had a policy of not marrying cohabitating couples period. It’s not really a priests call to deny the sacrament but it is his call on whether or not he wants to officiate. I wonder what would happen if all priests chose not to officiate if they could resort to the “desert island” rule? Hmmmm…​

The Catholic Church does give dispensations for Catholics to marry members of other Christian churches or of other religions. So a priest cannot refuse a wedding simply for such a reason. A priest may refuse to witness a marriage because he judges one or both parties to be too young or to be lacking in sufficient psychological maturity, etc. However, the example you give regarding Scripture could be true of a Protestant clergyman, but not of a Catholic priest. It is not for the individual Catholic to have his own private interpretation of Scripture apart from that of the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church. Further, the priest may refuse to officiate, but he cannot prevent the couple from going to another priest who might have a different pastoral opinion. All things being equal, Catholics have a right to the Sacraments.
 
Not officiating is denying the sacrament.

I also have a young priest friend who says he does not marry cohabiting couples.

He is denying them the sacrament the same way I once saw a priest deny communion to a parishioner who was causing much dissension with his odd behavior.

If that man goes to another parish and gets communion or a couple finds another priest who is willing to marry them, that is a different thing altogether.

They are not denied the sacrament automatically for this behavior - it is not an automatic impediment - but you can see where it becomes an area of pastoral, not juridical concern.

Rome can’t be everywhere and oversee everything. We are a local church too, and if the local pastor does not want to, he may deny that couple the sacrament of matrimony, he may refuse to give them communion, he may even refuse them a Christian burial.

Priests have more say in these things than many realize.
 
No I take exception with your statement that we have a right to the sacraments.

except for infant baptism any catechumen can be refused baptism.

If a Catholic shows reason why he should not be given first communion, he or she should be denied it. They have no right to receive it. Certain obligations must be met.

The same for confirmation. If the local priest recommends a person not receive it, they will not be lined up before the bishop. It is the job of the priest to prepare confirmants. Not all deserve confirmation, it is no one’s right. It is a grace given, not a right owed.

Same for marriage.

Same for holy orders.

I don’t know about whether one has the right to last rites. I hope not, but I don’t know.

I don’t know whether a priest has the right to not here a person’s confesssion. I suspect it is more that absolution is not an automatic.

For these few reasons, I feel that sacraments are gifts from god, visible symbols of God’s grace, but not really “rights”. I think that is democratic language, not ecclesial terminology and I think it comes from the latent anti-clericalism creeping into modern society.

We refuse to see the priest as spiritual leader, just instead a dispenser of stuff we are “owed” by birthright.
 
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George2:
No I take exception with your statement that we have a right to the sacraments.

except for infant baptism any catechumen can be refused baptism.

If a Catholic shows reason why he should not be given first communion, he or she should be denied it. They have no right to receive it. Certain obligations must be met.

The same for confirmation. If the local priest recommends a person not receive it, they will not be lined up before the bishop. It is the job of the priest to prepare confirmants. Not all deserve confirmation, it is no one’s right. It is a grace given, not a right owed.

Same for marriage.

Same for holy orders.

I don’t know about whether one has the right to last rites. I hope not, but I don’t know.

I don’t know whether a priest has the right to not here a person’s confesssion. I suspect it is more that absolution is not an automatic.

For these few reasons, I feel that sacraments are gifts from god, visible symbols of God’s grace, but not really “rights”. I think that is democratic language, not ecclesial terminology and I think it comes from the latent anti-clericalism creeping into modern society.

We refuse to see the priest as spiritual leader, just instead a dispenser of stuff we are “owed” by birthright.
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Uh George, you aren’t taking exception to my statement, it’s Fr. Serpa’s response.
 
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George2:
Both your points are well-meaning and protective of the young woman but fundamentally flawed.
  1. She is on the internet to get advice from complete strangers about whether to get married. That’s nuts. That is a trainwreck waiting to happen. Sorry, no other way to characterize it.
  2. Myself and most who have butted heads with her highness have done so out of genuine concern for her future - disobeying Christ is no way to start a marriage.
  3. We are also writing out of concern for the Church. She is dragging the Catholic Church through the mud in a public forum any non-Catholic may view or join. She is admitting to cohabiting. She has been told it is wrong and insists she will do so anyway up to the day of her marriage.
  4. Yes many have problems with priests or deacons who marry those in this state. Many are priests and deacons who will not marry them. If Tar had only one priest or deacon within many miles of her and that man refused to marry her because of her obstinate sin - as is his right - she might have go “priest shopping” - a sad solution to what she wants.
  5. She is doing what she wants. She is ignoring good advice from many here. She is harming our church with her public sin. That is scandal, and all the Catholics here who have called her out on it have that right.
  6. “emotional trainwreck” is neither a meanspirited jab nor an innacurate remark given her posts. This woman does not have it together, is getting great advice from many here to pause or call off her wedding until she is living in conformity with God’s law. Do you want me to lie to her and call her a mature and God-fearing good Christian.
No, she is headed for trouble and that is self-evident. I also find that those apologizing for her are forgetting that the interests of the Church and Christ come first.

Maybe those she knows in real life - not this cyberspace attempt to get justification for her sins will be as blunt with her.

If the truth hurts, let it hurt her because sometimes you have to be a little cruel to be kind - in the right measure.

Grow up Ashley. Do what these good people and your Deacon are advising you to do. Get married by a priest if you are able to, and stop living in sin - and telling all of us about it.
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When did i EVER ask wether or not i should get married?! i sifted through your other posts and you seem to be a real nasty guy! calling other people little trolls because they dont agree with you! YOU are a phsycological train wreck, you get on the forums and VENT angrily at anyone who doesnt worship the very ground you walk on! YOU need help. and the princess thing? well my Daddy never lied to me, and he always told me i was his little princess! its people like you that “represent” our faith that truly make me sick to my stomache! and by the way YOURE on the internet as well in these forums throwing about your 2 cents in horribly mean ways, you dont like people seeking advice from fellow Catholics on things that their faith can help them with, when some (like myself) are new to the faith and need guidance of those who have been here a while, well you see that little “x” at the top right hand corner of you screen?..click it.
 
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George2:
Does the priest not want to marry you Tar?
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no i didnt ask the priest to marry us, the Deacon is a dear old family friend and confidant, thats why i asked him. and by the way im not pregnant. feel better now?
 
TarAshly–I am worried about you. I have been following a number of threads that you have started. In every one of them, you ask for advice and when you don’t get the endorsement that you are looking for, you lash out at the person. I am concerned that if you behave like this in a public forum–in which you can easily ignore people–that you behave similarly in your personal life.

Furthermore, you have posted that you are 21, your fiance is 23, you are living together and you are getting married in one month. You fight with your fiance and you consider him too passive. Your mother has had more than one failed marriage. Your fiance converted to Catholicism and he has diabetes. You don’t believe in counseling.

Many people who are older and more experienced than you see many danger signs. Your angry responses suggest that you don’t want to acknowledge the problems that others see in your situation. I wish you well.
 
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