Fiance doesn't want to join the church

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Why dont you invite her to a Catholic Charismatic service,after Mass?
 
Woke up this morning and saw that this thread was still going. I just want to say one more time that if she is dead set against the Catholic Church then don’t do it. At least put it off for a while. As you know, in the Catholic Church there is no divorce, so this could be an issue that you struggle with for the REST OF YOUR LIFE. Now think on that.
 
I say this as someone married to a non-Catholic. Marrying someone who does not share your faith, but who is willing to support you in practicing it, that is one thing. That is hard enough on both of you. Marrying someone who is critical of your faith, that is something else again.

Now, if she is merely saying, “this is why I’m not ready to convert yet, in spite of a lack of doctrinal differences”, that is one thing. If she is saying, “this is what is wrong with your faith”, that is something else.

As far as uniformity, I’d say the Church is going in the direction of greater uniformity, rather than less. Generally speaking, too, inserting greater liturgical novelty into the Roman Rite has not, as a rule, lead to pretty results. It’s kind of like making random changes to a person’s DNA. Some changes are going to be advantageous, but the more likely result is dysfunction. The more highly evolved an organism is, after all, the more random changes are going to do harm to the good things it has going.

If you’re going to explain the Mass to her, I’d recommend reading “What Happens at Mass”, by Fr. Jeremy Driscoll, OSB. He is a consultor to the Congregation for Divine Worship, but the book is very much accessible to the lay reader. The book goes through the Order of the Mass and explains what happens in the various parts. I think it will help you to help her to see that if properly understood, Catholic worship is very active. It isn’t always loud, it isn’t free form, but it is very active, if you only know what is going on.
 
My wife was a Seventh Day Adventist when we got married. You can’t get much more anti-Catholic than that. After thirteen years of marriage, she converted. We have eight kids. We love each other very much, and I can’t imagine life without her. If you two love each other, and she won’t oppose your practice of your faith, you should get married. If she does oppose your being Catholic, then you should not marry.
 
coachkfan1 said:
Every time I see one of these threads I feel compelled to respond based on my personal experience and the experiences of so many other that I have talked to. So I want you to read the next part very slowly: If you are committed to your Catholic faith, and your fiance has no interest in becoming Catholic, then my advice is to NOT GET MARRIED unless or until that situation changes! As you grow in faith and years your faith will become more important to you, the center of your life, and may very well become a huge source of contention in your marraige. It’s your life and you are free to do with it as you will, but I would strongly urge you to read what I have just written over again and ask the Holy Spirit if this is what you truly ought to be doing.
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Yes and yes and yes. Please think very carefully about your decision to marry. It is completely possible to have a good marriage with a non-Catholic spouse but if your faith is central to your life, then it will be a very lonely experience and a possible source of tension.
 
This is a really difficult decision and a hard situation. If you are a true catholic you would do anything possible to make sure your marriage is in the Church. Your marriage will be much happier and enjoyable if you rely on the church for help and you priests. Marriage is a sacred thing and God knows this is difficult for you and your fiancé ,but God will help you through this. If you know religion and faith is always going to be an issue between the two of you than this might always be an ongoing issue. So it is extremely important to get married in the church. Peace and I hope everything works out.
 
kbwall said:
The girl I got engaged to is really against the Catholic church. I initially thought it was because of bias and prejudices about things that simply aren’t true. But she finally told me the truth, that she just feels empty when she goes because there’s so much recited prayer.
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Although I do agree with people who tell you to think long and hard about whether you can spend the rest of your life with someone who is in dsiagreement with your faith, I don’t think the issue is religion. I think the whole issue is communication

Why would she finally tell you? Was she keeping it a secret? Did she tell you but you never really heard it? I think before you can even start to tackle the religious issue, you need to fix the communication issue

CM
 
cmscms said:
Although I do agree with people who tell you to think long and hard about whether you can spend the rest of your life with someone who is in dsiagreement with your faith, I don’t think the issue is religion. I think the whole issue is communication

Why would she finally tell you? Was she keeping it a secret? Did she tell you but you never really heard it? I think before you can even start to tackle the religious issue, you need to fix the communication issue

CM
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She was trying to like it before pronouncing sentence. I wouldn’t hold that against her.
 
EasterJoy said:
She was trying to like it before pronouncing sentence. I wouldn’t hold that against her.
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I am not discrediting your theory, however, if that was the case I think the OP would have wrote something like ‘My fiancee came to church with me to learn about the Catholic faith but after giving a honest effort, she just couldn’t feel comfortable there’

However, the way the OP wrote it, it can lead one to think she just didn’t speak up before. That is why I say there needs to be communication, to get to the bottom of it all

CM
 
If she is unwilling to have any children of the union, baptized and raised Catholic then marriage should be out of the question. She should not be forced to join the Church but at least respect your views & beliefs on things are to be done in the Catholic Church. I know I could not marry someone that would not at least respect the ways of the Church.

My grandmother converted to Catholicism to marry my grandfather just after the end of World War 2. She was a Protestant, and had several ancestors that were Protestant ministers. She converted because back then the rules were more strict on mixed marriages, and she has been a devout Catholic ever since. Her Protestant family did not turn their back on her due to her conversion. They remained married until her husband’s death despite their differences at times.

My mother and father both came from Catholic homes. My mother had a more strict Catholic upbringing with Catholic school early on with daily Mass until their parents moved to a rural area with no Catholic schools nearby (so they had to go to public schools), plus Sunday & Holy Day Mass attendance a must. My father’s family was less strict from what I’ve found out: weekly catechism classes during school time (which the boys did not care for much as it took from their play time), and Sunday/Holy Day Mass attendance. My mother goes to Mass weekly and holydays; my father seldom goes & my mother has stopped forcing him unless its for Xmas, Easter, or family things like weddings or funerals.
 
exnihilo said:
I’d consider taking the time to discuss this issue because I think it is a big one for both church and marriage. We dont worship God to make us feel anything. True and proper worship is not that which creates a certain feeling. If it were you’d have to say anyone who doesn’t get the right feeling at a church service has wasted their time. They have not worshipped. If the worship service is rated based on how it makes us feel then the worship service becomes more about us than God. Also, we are obliged to worship God whether we feel like it or not. Worshiping God when we dont feel like it is actually the very test of faith. It is easy to do the right thing when we want to. The real test is when we dont want to.
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Um, God is God. The worship service IS about us. God doesn’t need our worship. The purpose of the service is to build ourselves and our community. The obligation is because we need the obligation, not because God needs it. So yes, how you feel about it is very important.

As someone who became Catholic, what I found troublesome was that so many Catholics don’t understand many of the very symbolic rituals included in rites. Thus, the rituals become meaningless, and hence “magic” rather than understandable symbolism. And I have definitely met cradle Catholics who feel the same way as the OP’s fiancee.

I would suggest to the OP that he as that she at least become well-educated on the Church. Perhaps he should offer to do the same on a selection of her choice. They can work through this together with a Priest for example.

I’d also consider reading the book “Why Catholics Can’t Sing”
 
I will be very blunt. It is your fault, not hers. And it is very Christlike of you to acknowledge that things will not work this way, especially when it comes to marriage (you are bound to marry in the Church unless you want to give up on receiving the Eucharist for the rest of your life) and children.

That being said, I think that your explanation contradicts the first sentence: from what you explain, she does not seem to be really against the Catholic church. If she hated the Church and claimed that it belongs to Satan, then maybe. But if she feels that way, it simply means that she does not know anything about the Catholic church.

Try learning more about the liturgy of the Church and the story of the Church itself. For 1500 years there has been one Church, the Catholic church, consistent in her unity but definitely not in her uniformity: there are 24 ad iuris Churches or rites that compose what we call the Catholic church. Try and bring her to several rites, if you have a chance: a solemn Tridentine mass in Latin, a Melkite or other orthodox Catholic mass…everything in each rite is so unique that the Church did not even attempt to change them, just accepting them as they are.

Explain to her that all those denominational churches were born after the Reform of 1500 out of disobedience towards the Catholic Church, and that is why there are literally thousands of them…because having lost the unity, they are like sheep without a shepherd…they come up with their own interpretations of the Scriptures, and they give up some or all of the Sacraments that the Church has treasured for almost 2000 years. Which is why we believe that all Christians are members of one Church, but also that the one Church subsists in the Catholic church governed by Peter’s successor and the bishops in communion with him.

Worship isn’t active enough? Talk to her about missionaries, about religious orders like the Franciscan friars and similar orders that take solemn vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience…talk to her about the Discalded Carmelite cloistered nuns that give up the world in its entirety out of sheer love for Christ and spend their entire life in prayer…talk to her about Third Order or Secular religious communities in which lay faithful get together and follow a rule similar to that of the actual religious order while still living in the world and marrying and carrying out their lives.

Tell her that recited prayer - such as the Liturgy of the Hours, that can be recited by lay faithful, deacons, priests, bishops, and by the pope himself - is given as an aid to the faithful, just like the Lord taught us how to pray and ever since we all keep the Lord’s Prayer as the utmost model for all recited prayer.

But add that there are other prayers…such as contemplative prayer…talk to her about what the Perpetual Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is…about how we spend hours at the presence of the Lord, either praying to him in our hearts, or just looking at Him and loving Him.

Finally, try to find out as much as you can about the Real Presence and the mystical spirituality of Holy Communion. Her feeling of emptiness can be almost fully attributed to her never having received the Beloved in the Eucharist. Oh, if only she had gone through RCIA and had received Christ at least once, she would never feel empty again.
you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church.

http://img.aquinasandmore.com/saint-peter-the-apostle.jpg
 
kbwall said:
But she finally told me the truth, that she just feels empty when she goes because there’s so much recited prayer. She doesn’t feel like worship is active enough. She believes everybody has their own style of worship, and the Catholic way is too uniformed.
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As others have already said, it’s not a good idea to marry if you are unequally yoked. If you spend any amount of time here you will see how many people are in serious disagreements with their spouses of other denominations. If you disagree on moral issues it can make married life very difficult.

I don’t think your problem is without possible resolution however it should be accomplished before marriage. I grew up with some protestant influences, and these were my exact thoughts about the Church at one point. It was simply a lack of proper catechesis as well as spiritual immaturity. In this culture, we want to “feel” closer to God and hear music which is emotionally charged and elevates the “drama” of our “church” experience. The problem is, this is worldly and not spiritual delight.

I would discuss this with her. Ask her if the most important thing about Church is how it feels… Does she have an interior life of quiet prayer, or must all worship be outward to her? Is there an objective true Church for her or is it subjective?

I advise looking into the apologetical materials available from Catholic Answers to help you in your discussions.

The point is not to find your own personal worship style, but to find the true Church.
 
kbachler said:
Um, God is God. The worship service IS about us. God doesn’t need our worship. The purpose of the service is to build ourselves and our community. The obligation is because we need the obligation, not because God needs it. So yes, how you feel about it is very important.
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I agree that God does not need our worship but that does not mean the purpose of worship is to improve man. The purpose is to show the honor due to God as creator. As part of true worship we will improve ourselves and our community because our will becomes aligned with God’s. But the purpose is not that.
kbachler said:
As someone who became Catholic, what I found troublesome was that so many Catholics don’t understand many of the very symbolic rituals included in rites. Thus, the rituals become meaningless, and hence “magic” rather than understandable symbolism.
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Maybe what you are trying to say about feelings is that vain or empty repetition is not actually worship. If you do not have the intent to worship God then I agree that religious acts lose meaning. But intent is not the same as feeling. Intent is our will. Feelings are something that else.
 
What happens at The Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (any form) is fundamentally different than what happens at Protestant worship services. Your fiance may be more open to it if she is willing to make the effort to understand it. It would be a hopeful sign if she were willing to attend RCIA simply to learn what YOUR faith. From your description however, it sounds like she is hoping to convert you and that should be a deal killer.

If you both care about your faith, you will find a lot of conflict trying a co-exist approach. There are early battles as well - you must be married in the Church (unless granted dispensation from canonical form), attend Catholic marriage prep and promise (just you) to raise your children as Catholic.

Even if you feel that she will cooperate with the Catholic education of your children, it is different once they are born. Not only will her feelings change once the theoretical becomes real, but she will be under pressure from her family, friends and church. Do not brush these things under the rug now and hope for the best or blindly believe everything will magically be OK.

Make an appointment to speak with your priest and then have a long, deep conversation with her.
 
Corki said:
Well, you can certainly go to different parishes and let her experience different liturgical styles. There are also the Eastern Catholic churches but those are also fairly rigid (I mean that in a good way) in terms of structure. You can also see if there are any Charismatic Renewal Masses or Masses at monestaries that you can go to . But, as for “branches”, the Latin Rite is about as freewheeling as any.

But there are some serious problems here.
  1. She “finally told me the truth” 😃 Does that mean that she was less than honest before you got engaged? Or does it mean that, as a couple, you glossed over your religious differences in the heat of young love. If the latter, we’ve all done something similar. 😃 But if the former, that’s a big red flag.
  2. If you church shop now, what happens if you move to another area and there aren’t as many options (assuming you have options now)? It would be unwise to join the Church based on enjoyment of a single style of worship.
  3. “And there’s no way things can continue if we go to different churches.” Is that what she said or is this your own conclusion? There are many cases of successful mixed marriages. But there are also many cases where a difference caused too much stress and caused the marriage to fail. This is a huge deal when you add children to the mix. That being said, if someone converts, it needs to be for more than just wanting to go to church together.
Sounds like you need to give the whole situation some time. Look around and go talk to a good priest.
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Corki, You always have the best advice, presented in a caring and straightforward manner.

I agree with Corki on this 100%. I had a failed marriage. He was Jewish and I was Catholic. After some time it was all about HIS faith and not at all about mine. I was so determined to make it work that my faith was just left by the wayside.

What about your children? It will become a HUGE deal. In my family growing up my parents were two different Protestant denominations. They fought HARD in front of us kids and we were always confused. My Mom trashed Catholics out of misinformation she was given. Your children’s mental health and spiritual status are at stake. Your peace of mine is at stake. And…I will say this even though it may come off rude, when you marry in the Catholic faith (as a Catholic should) you had better be SURE or you could be facing a situation where you are NOT granted an annulment and the rest of your life is impacted. Have her set an appt with a priest and go meet with him. Then met with him yourself and see what he recommends. This doesn’t sound good to me. After my failures I can always spot what doesn’t look good.

My prayers are with you,
Lorrie
 
exnihilo said:
I agree that God does not need our worship but that does not mean the purpose of worship is to improve man. The purpose is to show the honor due to God as creator. As part of true worship we will improve ourselves and our community because our will becomes aligned with God’s. But the purpose is not that.
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I disagree. God is God; hence for Him worship is not a requirement Therefore, if worship is to have a purpose, that purpose is only in relation to man. If our individual growth and growth is therefore, not the purpose, what is? We already know God is God, thus the statement that we do it to honor is absurd since He does not require the honor. Hence we ar left only with the improvement of man
exnihilo said:
Maybe what you are trying to say about feelings is that vain or empty repetition is not actually worship. If you do not have the intent to worship God then I agree that religious acts lose meaning. But intent is not the same as feeling. Intent is our will. Feelings are something that else.
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No, that is not what I am trying to say. Even if one has that the intent to worship, if one simply follows what is required without understanding, it lacks meaning. We are to love God with all our heart, all our spirit, all our strength, and all our mind. Three out of four doesn’t cut it.
 
kbachler said:
I disagree. God is God; hence for Him worship is not a requirement Therefore, if worship is to have a purpose, that purpose is only in relation to man. If our individual growth and growth is therefore, not the purpose, what is? We already know God is God, thus the statement that we do it to honor is absurd since He does not require the honor. Hence we ar left only with the improvement of man
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Worship is a moral obligation. Worship is honoring God, which is a moral obligation for the created being. You are right that God is lacking in nothing. But moral duties do not exist to fulfill the needs of man. Such a morality would be humanism, not the Christian concept of morals. Morality, which flows from God’s essence, does require us to honor Him. In Matthew 4:10 Jesus says ‘for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve’. The purpose of Worship is to fulfill our duty. It is true that in fulfilling our duty we will be rightly oriented toward God and from that will come blessings (not blessing from a worldly point of view but from a Heavenly). But the blessings are not the goal.
kbachler said:
No, that is not what I am trying to say. Even if one has that the intent to worship, if one simply follows what is required without understanding, it lacks meaning. We are to love God with all our heart, all our spirit, all our strength, and all our mind. Three out of four doesn’t cut it.
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Are you saying heart is the key to meaning? And are you saying that heart is feelings we experience? If so might I suggest a Dr. Peter Kreeft article I just happened to read the other day. In it he points out:
Three other words for will in Scripture are “heart” (the center or core of the person), “spirit,” and “I” (as in “I AM WHO AM”). All three mean the self. The source of agape is not any function of the self but the self itself, that mysterious and non-objectifiable personal center which is the root and source of all our functions.
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The Importance of Free Choice: The Role of Our Will

If heart is what you mean then I think you might be importing modern romantic notions of heart into the meaning of heart as used in Sacred Scripture.
 
kbwall said:
The girl I got engaged to is really against the Catholic church. I initially thought it was because of bias and prejudices about things that simply aren’t true. But she finally told me the truth, that she just feels empty when she goes because there’s so much recited prayer. She doesn’t feel like worship is active enough. She believes everybody has their own style of worship, and the Catholic way is too uniformed. And there’s no way things can continue if we go to different churches.

Is there any branch of Catholicism that would still be considered going to Christ’s true church that is a bit more free like what she wants?
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Faith is a personal thing it may be that she is better off in her own church if that is where the spirit of GOD speaks to her. While you can answer her questions and help with some encouragement a person really has to find their faith on there own or else it won’t last. At least that’s my opinion.
 
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