Fights as Spanish Civil War clergy are beatified

[Caesar]

498 victims of the socialist rebel forces in the Spanish Civil War, including a bishop killed in 1936, will be beatified. There is speculation that this could be in response to a recent socialist-sponsored bill in the Spanish government that condemns the Church-backed Franco regime.

Spanish Martyrs to be Beatified

 

[RomanCrusader]

God bless those martyrs, and God bless Francisco Franco, savior of Spain.

 

[Richardols]

God bless those martyrs, and God bless Francisco Franco, savior of Spain.

Jesus Christ is the savior of Spain; the Generalissimo was not so powerful.

Lest we forget, the article notes that “the bill mentions people persecuted for their religious beliefs, but for the most part it is an unprecedented formal condemnation of the Franco regime, the executions of civilians by pro-Franco militia and summary postwar trials of people accused of opposing his regime.” And, let’s not forget how pro-Nazi Franco was and how he enlisted Nazi German and Fascist Italian “volunteers” to help overthrown the legitimately elected government of Spain.

The sight of Catholic clergy and hierarchy in photographs with raised right arms giving the fascist salute is still sickening.

 

[JimG]

I haven’t read it yet, but it’s on my list: The Last Crusade,by Warren Carroll, gives a history of that era.

 

[Genesis315]

There is speculation that this could be in response to a recent socialist-sponsored bill in the Spanish government that condemns the Church-backed Franco regime.

Spanish Martyrs to be Beatified

I think this was answered pretty well here:

zenit.org/article-20833?l=english

“It does not surprise us that there would be incorrect political interpretations; those who have made a purely political reading of a clearly religious event have always been mistaken. But that is the law of history.”

“The martyrs of the first stage of Christianity, who gave their lives for Christ, were classified as traitors of Rome; the martyrs of the French Revolution were classified as traitors of the revolution, and the martyrs of the 20th century in Russia, central Europe or Spain, were classified as people who have hindered the advance of history.”

“To say that those who the Church now beatifies were a political group is to be ignorant of history, to fail to understand the religious fact, and to fail to do justice to the facts,” Father Martínez Camino contended. “We Christians are hurt by this misrepresentation of facts, but it doesn’t surprise us, and in this sense, we accept it serenely.”

 

[Richardols]

It is a true pity that whereas some Catholic clergy, such as those in Poland, always took the side of the people, against the Communists and the Nazis both, the Spanish clergy threw in their lot with the Fascist dictator and the wealthy interests.

No wonder that when Poland rid itself of Communism, the people remained staunchly Catholic, whereas as soon as Franco was gone, Spanish life became more secular and connection with the Faith more tenuous. The Church there should have known better, and so they reaped the consequences.

 

[Caesar]

It is a true pity that whereas some Catholic clergy, such as those in Poland, always took the side of the people, against the Communists and the Nazis both, the Spanish clergy threw in their lot with the Fascist dictator and the wealthy interests.

No wonder that when Poland rid itself of Communism, the people remained staunchly Catholic, whereas as soon as Franco was gone, Spanish life became more secular and connection with the Faith more tenuous. The Church there should have known better, and so they reaped the consequences.

Franco allowed Jews fleeing from Nazi Germany into his country, and gave them protection and aid. He had his failures, but overall he was a good leader and a devout Catholic who should be honored, not condemned.

 

[estesbob]

It is a true pity that whereas some Catholic clergy, such as those in Poland, always took the side of the people, against the Communists and the Nazis both, the Spanish clergy threw in their lot with the Fascist dictator and the wealthy interests.

No wonder that when Poland rid itself of Communism, the people remained staunchly Catholic, whereas as soon as Franco was gone, Spanish life became more secular and connection with the Faith more tenuous. The Church there should have known better, and so they reaped the consequences.

Franco defeated the communists. Communist who declared themselvs enemies of the Catholic Church. How is that any different than the Polish who likewise opposed communism and those who declared themselves enemies of the Catholic Church?

 

[Richardols]

Franco allowed Jews fleeing from Nazi Germany into his country, and gave them protection and aid.

One decent thing.

He had his failures,

This year’s understatement of the year!

but overall he was a good leader

Elaborate how he was a good leader, given how many Spaniards hated him and his Fascists.

and a devout Catholic who should be honored, not condemned.

Being a practicing Catholic doesn’t excuse running one’s running a country with an iron fist, with the aid of a secret police and with imprisonment of anyone daring to oppose him.

 

[estesbob]

One decent thing.

This year’s understatement of the year!

Elaborate how he was a good leader, given how many Spaniards hated him and his Fascists.

Being a practicing Catholic doesn’t excuse running one’s running a country with an iron fist, with the aid of a secret police and with imprisonment of anyone daring to oppose him.

So you would prefer the communists took the country over? Regardless what you may think of Franco the Spanish people enjoyed a lot more freedom under him than any of the Eastern Bloc countries that fell to communism.

 

[Richardols]

Franco defeated the communists. Communist who declared themselvs enemies of the Catholic Church. How is that any different than the Polish who likewise opposed communism and those who declared themselves enemies of the Catholic Church?

The Polish clergy always supported the cause of people, not the rich and powerful, and they didn’t suck up to the communists nor the Nazis. The Spanish clergy were identified with the rich and supported the Fascist dictatorship and were friendly with the Nazis. As I said, note how the Poles are still firm Catholics, whereas the Spanish went secular immediately after the Generalissimo was buried.

There was a collective sigh of “good riddance” when Franco died.

 

[Richardols]

So you would prefer the communists of the country over? Regardless what you may think of Fraco the Spanish people enjoyed a lot more freedom under him than any of the Eastern Bloc countries that fell to communism.

To say they were better off in Spain than in the Communist Bloc nations means little when you consider how bad things were in the Bloc. The Spaniards could not oppose Franco without going to prison or being shot, and what is more important, the close ties between the Church and Fascism there guaranteed that the Church would become meaningless in Spain after the Fascists were gone. Catholicism is just symbolic in Spain; churches are nearly empty, the birth rate is small, and there aren’t that many priests. The Poles, on the other hand, have enough vocations that they export priests to the U.S. and elsewhere!

 

[bones_IV]

So you would prefer the communists took the country over? Regardless what you may think of Franco the Spanish people enjoyed a lot more freedom under him than any of the Eastern Bloc countries that fell to communism.

He can’t defend it.

 

[Richardols]

One needs only to interview Spaniards to learn what their opinion is of Franco. The fact that the country has a socialist government and a Church that hardly counts says much.

During World War II, Franco cooperated with the Germans, and I believe that Spain was considered a belligerent neutral by the Allies. Franco was quick to offer air bases to the Americans after the war to ingratiate himself, knowing that he was considered as dirt both in Washington and London.

This, to be sure, in no way diminishes the sacrifice of those Religious killed by the Communists. They certainly deserve the beatification, and perhaps through their intercession, Spain might be a truly Catholic country again some day.

 

[RomanCrusader]

Franco was a hero and a great man. Its a shame we don’t have wise and bold leaders like Francisco Franco, Antonio Salazar, and Ngo Dinh Diem around anymore. Men like them were driven by piety and conviction, not partisan nonsonse.

Vive Franco, savior of Spain!

 

[RomanCrusader]

Jesus Christ is the savior of Spain; the Generalissimo was not so powerful.

Lest we forget, the article notes that “the bill mentions people persecuted for their religious beliefs, but for the most part it is an unprecedented formal condemnation of the Franco regime, the executions of civilians by pro-Franco militia and summary postwar trials of people accused of opposing his regime.” And, let’s not forget how pro-Nazi Franco was and how he enlisted Nazi German and Fascist Italian “volunteers” to help overthrown the legitimately elected government of Spain.

The sight of Catholic clergy and hierarchy in photographs with raised right arms giving the fascist salute is still sickening.

You clearly don’t know very much about Francisco Franco.

The depraved communistic “Popular Front” had utterly destroyed Spain as a nation. The communists raped nuns, killed priests, stole land, slew all dissenters, tortured laypeople, etc. Francisco Franco and the brave falange stood up against these savage communist vermin and purified Spain of their presence. After the war Franco took the necessary steps to ensure that the communists could never hurt Spain again. It is true that some falangist militia did very bad things post-war, but Franco intended only to execute militant communists. The fact that his falangists got out of line should not be held against him.

During WWII, Franco was very neutral. He allowed Jews and other refugees to take shelter in Spain, never once turning them down. He sent troops to help the Germans fight against the Soviet communists, but he forbade any Spaniard fighting against the Americans or British. Hitler personally despised Franco, saying “I would rather have my teeth pulled out than speak to that man”. Towards the end of the war, Franco offered to declare war against Japan.

Following the war, the Soviets villified Franco. However, Franco became a member of NATO and a strong ally against the communists.

Franco was a noble man who doesn’t deserve the slander he is given today. Had I lived back then I would have been proud to serve in Francos military.

 

[RomanCrusader]

The Polish clergy always supported the cause of people, not the rich and powerful, and they didn’t suck up to the communists nor the Nazis. The Spanish clergy were identified with the rich and supported the Fascist dictatorship and were friendly with the Nazis. As I said, note how the Poles are still firm Catholics, whereas the Spanish went secular immediately after the Generalissimo was buried.

There was a collective sigh of “good riddance” when Franco died.

guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2194235,00.html

Spain is run by socialist tyrants as of RIGHT NOW. According to this article, they are literally outlawing all mention of Franco. This is clearly an effort by socialists to drag a good man like Francos name through the mud.

I encourage everyone here to spread the word of Franco and his good and honorable life. We cannot let the marxist thugs ruin and slander a good man like Franco. I bet Franco is looking down from heaven right now and shaking his head, wondering why these hateful marxists are so intent on ruining Spain.

 

[Caesar]

Franco was a hero and a great man. Its a shame we don’t have wise and bold leaders like Francisco Franco, Antonio Salazar, and Ngo Dinh Diem around anymore. Men like them were driven by piety and conviction, not partisan nonsonse.

Vive Franco, savior of Spain!

My thoughts exactly

 

[Richardols]

The depraved communistic “Popular Front” had utterly destroyed Spain as a nation.

An exaggeration.

Francisco Franco and the brave falange

Ever so brave - aided by his buddies Hitler and Mussolini and their “volunteers” and the Nazi Condor Legions.

After the war Franco took the necessary steps to ensure that the communists could never hurt Spain again.

Not just communists - with his dictatorship, he suppressed everyone who opposed him in any way.

It is true that some falangist militia did very bad things post-war, but Franco intended only to execute militant communists. The fact that his falangists got out of line should not be held against him.

He was in charge, he’s responsible.

During WWII, Franco was very neutral.

He was a belligerent neutral who favored the Nazis.

He allowed Jews and other refugees to take shelter in Spain, never once turning them down.

Such a humanitarian!

Following the war, the Soviets villified Franco.

And rightly so.

However, Franco became a member of NATO and a strong ally against the communists.

Spain didn’t join NATO until 1982, and Franco was under sod by 1975. He was no ally.

Franco was a noble man who doesn’t deserve the slander he is given today. Had I lived back then I would have been proud to serve in Francos military.

And to join in singing Cara al Sol.

Sing his praises all you want; the fact is that after he died, the Spanish people rejected the Church. Churches are still practically empty, vocations are low, the birth rate is very low (one hardly sees children around, visiting Spain) and secularization is the norm. The Church was a symbol of wealth, repression, and inequality, and by allying itself with the dictator instead of with the common people, it reaped what it had sown. The Church there has no one to blame but itself.

(Unlike the Polish Church, of which I am so proud, being of that heritage. The Polish clergy and hierarchy always stood up to the Nazis and the Communists, and that’s why it remained strong and retains the loyalty of the Polish people.)

 

[inthecloud]

Originally Posted by RomanCrusader
"The depraved communistic “Popular Front” had utterly destroyed Spain as a nation.

An exaggeration."

No but they were well in their way to doing it. Remember the burning of churches and killings of priest and nun began before Franco’s uprising. Spain as a nation was well on the way towards disintegration.

Quote:
Francisco Franco and the brave falange

Ever so brave - aided by his buddies Hitler and Mussolini and their “volunteers” and the Nazi Condor Legions.
Well, the Republic had volunteers from all the communist globe including Stalin’s NKVD, how often people forgot that. The killings of catholic clergy was organized by them. They also killed fellow Republican fighters who weren´t communists George Orwell barely escaped with his life from the NKVD allies not from the facists.
Quote:
After the war Franco took the necessary steps to ensure that the communists could never hurt Spain again.

Not just communists - with his dictatorship, he suppressed everyone who opposed him in any way.
Well, yes he was a dictator and he suppresed socialists, communists, and ethnic nationalist but in his group were facist, monarquists and free market conservatives. If you compare the books printed in Spain during Franco regime there was far more freedom than under a comunist dictatorship.

Quote:
It is true that some falangist militia did very bad things post-war, but Franco intended only to execute militant communists. The fact that his falangists got out of line should not be held against him.

He was in charge, he’s responsible.

Agreed, but the Republicans were as rutless executing Franco’s sympatizers in the parts of Spain they controlled. It was a no quarter given, no quarter asked war.

Quote:
During WWII, Franco was very neutral.

He was a belligerent neutral who favored the Nazis.

Not so according to moder research. He send people to fight the commies in Rusia but never tried to fight the western allies and even refused to handle over the germans allied airmen who escaped to Spain.
Quote:
He allowed Jews and other refugees to take shelter in Spain, never once turning them down.

Such a humanitarian!

Yes he was! Remember in those times, even the US refused to admit jewish refugees. And he did. He even tried to save the Sephardic jews of Salonica and Yugoslavia. As the current great Rabbi of Madrid said, he did a lot for the Jews, even more that some allied countries.

Quote:
Following the war, the Soviets villified Franco.

And rightly so.

Agreed, the communists will always vilify an enemy with courage, like Ronald Reagan for example.

Quote:
However, Franco became a member of NATO and a strong ally against the communists.

Spain didn’t join NATO until 1982, and Franco was under sod by 1975. He was no ally.
Spain joined NATO in 1982 because many eurosocialdemocrats did not wanted Franco in. He allowed the US to use military bases in Spain since the early 1960s including nuclear armed planes. Remember the incident in Torrejón when a H bomb was lost after a B-52 crash.

Quote:
Franco was a noble man who doesn’t deserve the slander he is given today. Had I lived back then I would have been proud to serve in Francos military.

And to join in singing Cara al Sol.
A bit excesive but I like Cara al Sol too.

Sing his praises all you want; the fact is that after he died, the Spanish people rejected the Church. Churches are still practically empty, vocations are low, the birth rate is very low (one hardly sees children around, visiting Spain) and secularization is the norm. The Church was a symbol of wealth, repression, and inequality, and by allying itself with the dictator instead of with the common people, it reaped what it had sown. The Church there has no one to blame but itself.
The problem of the Spanish Church can not only be blamed on Franco, western european churches and french canadian churches are in the same state. I blame those on the social changes of the 60s and 70s, the exceses of Vatican Council II and the european welfare state.
(Unlike the Polish Church, of which I am so proud, being of that heritage. The Polish clergy and hierarchy always stood up to the Nazis and the Communists, and that’s why it remained strong and retains the loyalty of the Polish people.)