"Filial correction"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Vadne
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PaulfromIowa said:
I only recognize a handful of these names, most notably Bishop Fellay of the SSPX and a few of his group.
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Vadne said:
A lot of other people wanted to sign the letter but didn’t out of fear. There is significant anecdotal evidence that there is a real climate of fear in Rome in particular about doing anything to irritate this pope.
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If the SSPX say ‘yes’ I am inclined to think ‘no’.

@Vadne: How do you know this?
 
Zaccheus said:
If the SSPX say ‘yes’ I am inclined to think ‘no’.
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The fact that the SSPX say “yes” clearly subtracts from the credibility of the document, considering they have disagreed with all the popes going back to Paul VI. Christopher Ferrara, another signer, joined with a suspended priest and tried to get the atheistic EU government to put political and legal pressure on Pope Benedict because that pope failed to meet Mr. Ferrara’s requirements on Fatima.

A few of the other signatories appear to have no special theological credentials that I know of, which does not mean they are wrong on this. The media appears to have implicitly granted everyone a doctorate in Theology. If Bishop Gracida added his name, that does add some credibility.

Sadly I think something does need to be done, but this is not the group of people to initiate it. It makes things worse, because, suppose next month, a group of people who are far, far more credible, in terms of both orthodoxy and theological credentials, does something like this. The media will then say, “sure, one more of these things again”. The “friends of the pope” will hold press conferences, and say, “We ignore all these things. The boy is crying wolf again”.

It’s not out of fear that the vast majority of bishops and orthodox theologians will not put their signature alongside some of these names.
 
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Some day, the men who signed the filial correction will be remembered as heroes of this dark hour in the Church’s history. Bishop Gracida is brave, but also retired. Any sitting bishop who signed it would likely be fired tomorrow. That sort of thing happens in this pontificate.
 
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How do you know there are “many others,” and that they didn’t sign because they were afraid?
 
Since there is an ongoing comparison between these two “corrections,” is it know who the signatories were on the first correction? Was it also signed mainly by academics? With all due respect, given the “theological stance” and legitimacy of the SSPX in the eyes of Rome, is this even their “fight?”

I guess someone needs to define who the signatories should be for a correction to be legitimate. Is this an “informal” process, based on sewn together scripture? Or is there an official process steeped in Cannon law? I don’t think any of these questions have been raised or answered.
 
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The text matters more than who signed it. The text is a devastating indictment of what has happened with Amoris Laetitia, and also the pope’s comments in Lund about Martin Luther, whom the document correctly calls a heresiarch.
 
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Was talking with my mom about this last night because she LOVES Pope Francis (and she isn’t even Catholic) while I’ve told her the things that I like and don’t like about his pontificate.

Like I told her, even if these are just misunderstandings and he wasn’t actually teaching heresy (I’m not saying one way or the other), his ambiguity on many matters and silence thereafter to people’s request for clarification is what has led to this. He has brought this on himself.
 
Vadne said:
The text matters more than who signed it. The text is a devastating indictment of what has happened with Amoris Laetitia, and also the pope’s comments in Lund about Martin Luther, whom the document correctly calls a heresiarch.
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  • Since the text states matters of theological opinion, it DOES matter who signed it. Since I am not a theologian, I look to see 2 kinds of credentials: degree of theological expertise, and orthodoxy including orthopraxis. Most people on the list have little apparent special training in theology. Furthermore, some of the signers do have significant history of dissenting with prior popes, in terms of ecclesiology, among other things.
  • Regarding the statement that sitting bishops are fearful of being fired…how many sitting bishops have been fired from their diocese for theological reasons in the last 4 years? Enough for a bridge game? Are there any?
  • We live in an age when dissenting from a pope builds your resume in many quarters. It pumps up your website hits, sells your books. Fearful?
  • I disagree with this highly ineffective initiative, by people some of whom have no credibility at all, not because there is no problem in the Vatican, but because bad solutions make things worse. When faithful, credible theologians act, in concert with orthodox bishops who are concerned about theological confusion, there are no press releases. Let us pray this kind of reform movement starts soon, if it is not already underway.
 
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pnewton said:
So, as a refresher, "“Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed”
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Well, as a refresher, the term “heresy” is a technical canonical term. It applies only to Level 1 teaching (defined dogma, e.g., ex cathredra, Council with ratification of the Pope). Level two teaching, definitive teaching, is also infallible, but becomes that way because the teaching has been established and continually taught over the centuries. This is what the Church says.

Thus, Pope John XXII was asserting what was a violation of infallible teaching, regardless of whether that violation was concerning Level 1 or Level 2 teachings.

Level of Church teaching
 
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The fruits of Amoris Laetitia have been confusion, division, and the spectacle of bishop against bishop, as some discard the perennial teaching of the Church.

The pope will almost certainly ignore this document, just as he has ignored every other question or comment on AL that he doesn’t like.

That’s part of the point. It helps to provide evidence that he is pertinacious in not defending the faith in the face of attacks from high-ranking clerics re: the question of whether the divorced/remarried who do not abstain from sex can receive Communion.

As Bishop Schneider put it, the document might as well be called “The Joy of Adultery.”
 
I’m not worried about this. From the story:
The Pope has so far not responded to the initiative, whose 62 signatories include the German intellectual Martin Mosebach, former president of the Vatican Bank, Ettore Gotti Tedeschi, and the superior general of the Society of St. Pius X, Bishop Bernard Fellay (he learned of the document only after it had been delivered to the Pope and signed it on behalf of the Society).
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The signers include a former president of the Vatican bank (who is an economist, not a theologian, and apparently not a very good one, judging by his record at the Vatican Bank - he was dismissed by the board of directors), the superior general of the SSPX, and a German novelist and (very) conservative critic of the church? Sounds like a bunch of cranks to me.

I’m not sure this has to be taken all that seriously. What strikes me as especially jarring is that one of the signatories is the head of the SSPX. Who are the SSPX that they can criticize the Pope? It doesn’t seem to me that a bunch of schismatics are in any position to criticize Pope Francis.
 
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Vadne said:
. There is significant anecdotal evidence that there is a real climate of fear in Rome in particular about doing anything to irritate this pope.
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I thought most of the Holy Father’s detractors didn’t believe in any evidence of climate change, much less anecdotal evidence.
 
2towers said:
Since there is an ongoing comparison between these two “corrections,” is it know who the signatories were on the first correction? Was it also signed mainly by academics? With all due respect, given the “theological stance” and legitimacy of the SSPX in the eyes of Rome, is this even their “fight?”

I guess someone needs to define who the signatories should be for a correction to be legitimate. Is this an “informal” process, based on sewn together scripture? Or is there an official process steeped in Cannon law? I don’t think any of these questions have been raised or answered.
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I had a similar thought. Given its track record, in what way is the SSPX “filial?”
 
Inisfallen said:
It doesn’t seem to me that a bunch of schismatics are in any position to criticize Pope Francis.
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I mean this with respect but this is an extremely ignorant statement. The SSPX have never been in schism. Please take the time to learn about the situation before spreading misinformation like this.
 
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Thank God for this correction. I pray that Pope Francis is moved by it to clarify the ambiguities and reaffirm the Familiaris Consortio and the constant teachings of the Church.
 
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Because we can only talk about this with some bewilderment and uneasiness, but not really repair or resolve anything…

Holy Trinity, remembering Christ’s promise to be with the Church till the end of time,
we ask that You protect the Church from all confusion and division.
Bless us with grace to accept the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit in the Church.,
Protect the sanctity of the Sacraments; and safeguard canon law.
We ask Your divine protection of the teachings and precepts of the Church

Deepen our knowledge and insight of truth in tradition, faith and morals.
Ensure that all members of the Church without exception live in faith and faithfulness to the spirit and doctrines of the Church. Where anyone may slip into dissension to anything that the Holy Spirit has taught in the Church, please lead them to restate truth and to remedy any scandal or harm to the faithful and to those who may have been misled.

We ask that You continue to protect the Church from secular influences that may harm and restrict the practice of our faith
Lead the clergy, and the Pope to be true and holy shepherds, protecting the correctly-informed faith and morals of Your people.
Bless and protect the Church with the intercession and vigilance of Saint Michael and his Angels, and the intercession of our Mother and the Saints
 
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