Filioque and Eastern Christian Trinitarian understanding

[steve_b]

Fr Ambrose:

Are you aware that Aquinas in this work you recommend teaches that all the Orthodox, the Greeks, are going to hell? And not just the Orthodox, but your Baptist aunt who sings in the choir, the Queen of England, the President of the United States, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, the non-Catholic kid who mows your lawns…

"To be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation."

What a nasty piece of doctrine! The medieval doctrine of the filioque should be considered as a disgrace to the West

Now, no need to get your ears back. We’ve been over this stuff before.

Let’s look at this quote from Aquinas…

Is it necessary for salvation to remain in the Church? Yes.
What happens with splits?

“Acts of a sinful nature are these… dissensions, factions, I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” [Gal 5:19…]

factions * from the Church keeps one from heaven and that is serious business, correct?. To put it another familiar way, by Augustine and others, outside the Church [of which there is only one] there is no salvation.

Schism from the Church is also schism from the Roman pontiff who is head of the Church. It’s not either/or but both. I think this is what Aquinas was referring to.*

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

SFH:

Father Ambrose,
That’s not an argument against St. Thomas Aquinas–that’s just beating the bully pulpit.

Aquinas is the bully -threatening us with hell if we do not come under the Pope of Rome. Likoudis is a bully for repeating Aquinas’ false teaching. Likoudis must also be a vast embarrassment to the modern Roman Catholic Church which has abandoned Aquinas’ teaching about our damnation.

Why should I concern myself with anything these two men have to say?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

steve b:

Schism from the Church is also schism from the Roman pontiff who is head of the Church. It’s not either/or but both. I think this is what Aquinas was referring to.

Have you actually read Aquinas’ "Against the errors of the Greeks (i.e., the Orthodox)?

He is writing about the Orthodox and it is the Orthodox whom he is condemning to hell because we are not subject to the Pope.

Is there anything one can say in charity about a man who writes with such hatred of his fellow man and condemns millions of them to Satan? Or what good can be said about Likoudis who echoes him?

 

[StMarkEofE]

Fr Ambrose:

Have you actually read Aquinas’ "Against the errors of the Greeks (i.e., the Orthodox)?

He is writing about the Orthodox and it is the Orthodox whom he is condemning to hell because we are not subject to the Pope.

Is there anything one can say in charity about a man who writes with such hatred of his fellow man and condemns millions of them to Satan? Or what good can be said about Likoudis who echoes him?

Aquinas must have missed reading the biblical passage, and I paraphrase: “judge not lest ye be judged”.

StMarkEofE

 

[oat_soda]

Is there anything one can say in charity about a man who writes with such hatred of his fellow man and condemns millions of them to Satan? Or what good can be said about Likoudis who echoes him?

these things need to be worked out in a honest dialouge between the catholic and orthodox churches.

unlike urban the iv, he wasn’t infallible. you’ll be hard pressed to find a saint who has influenced the church more then st. thomas aquinas.

 

[steve_b]

Fr Ambrose:

Have you actually read Aquinas’ "Against the errors of the Greeks (i.e., the Orthodox)?

He is writing about the Orthodox and it is the Orthodox whom he is condemning to hell because we are not subject to the Pope.

What about St Paul who wrote to the Galatians and Corinthians warning them against division. Paul said to Galatia, those who divide, and continue to live divided, they would not inherit the kingdom of God. [Gal 5:19…] So IOW, since you don’t believe in purgatory, the only place left is hell, right? Does Paul condemn? No. The peoples actions will condemn them.

Are the Greeks still seperated? Yes. So why make Aquinas the heavy? It seems it’s Paul you need to take this up with.

JPII is working so hard in the twilight of his pontificate to reunite the East with the West. The supernatural realities of this issue demands it. Unfortunately, his health is failing him… He was able to bring down communism, but reuniting East and West looks insurmountable.
fr ambrose:

Is there anything one can say in charity about a man who writes with such hatred of his fellow man and condemns millions of them to Satan? Or what good can be said about Likoudis who echoes him?

Was Paul being uncharitable to the Galatians when he warned the dividers who stayed divided, they wouldn’t inherit heaven? What do you think about Paul’s statement?

It seems to me that in this case, Aquinas and Likoudis echo Paul.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

steve b:

What about St Paul who wrote to the Galatians and Corinthians warning them against division. Paul said to Galatia, those who divide, and continue to live divided, they would not inherit the kingdom of God. [Gal 5:19…] So IOW, since you don’t believe in purgatory, the only place left is hell, right? Does Paul condemn? No. The peoples actions will condemn them.

Are the Greeks still seperated? Yes. So why make Aquinas the heavy? It seems it’s Paul you need to take this up with.

JPII is working so hard in the twilight of his pontificate to reunite the East with the West. The supernatural realities of this issue demands it. Unfortunately, his health is failing him… He was able to bring down communism, but reuniting East and West looks insurmountable.

Was Paul being uncharitable to the Galatians when he warned the dividers who stayed divided, they wouldn’t inherit heaven? What do you think about Paul’s statement?

It seems to me that in this case, Aquinas and Likoudis echo Paul.

So you are speaking as a cradle Catholic and are saying that both scripture (Saint Paul) and Catholic theology (Thomas Aquinas) teach that the Orthodox go to hell because we refuse to be uner the Pope?

I think that you are propagating heresy under the guise of Catholicism.

 

[steve_b]

StMarkEofE:

Aquinas must have missed reading the biblical passage, and I paraphrase: “judge not lest ye be judged”.

StMarkEofE

Maybe he wasn’t judging but was paraphrasing.

dissenters and those who cause factions, who continue to live like this, will not inherit the kingdom of God. [Gal 5:19…]

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

steve b:

JPII… was able to bring down communism.

Yes, a certain amount of credit must be given to the Pope. As a Catholic theologian has noted: “But it’s also heavily exaggerated by papal propagandists. After all, the Soviet regime did not fail because of the pope (before the arrival of Gorbachev, the pope was achieving about as little as he is now achieving in China), but instead imploded because of the Soviet system’s inherent economic and social contradictions.”

We must also look at the spiritual reality - there were the prayers of millions of Orthodox Christians every day and night in all their churches and in their home prayers .

There was also the blood and the prayers of the 20 million Orthodox martyred by the communists and gathered before the throne of the Lamb. This is, from the real viewpoint of God’s verities, the true reason why communism came crashing down so quickly - the blood of the holy martyrs.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

steve b:

Maybe he wasn’t judging but was paraphrasing.

dissenters and those who cause factions, who continue to live like this, will not inherit the kingdom of God. [Gal 5:19…]

Steve b,

Have any of the Orthodox here ever said that you and your fellow Catholics will not inherit the Kingdom of God? No!

By saying that to us you are proving the point that the Church to which you belong cannot be the Church founded by Christ the Saviour.

 

[SFH]

Fr Ambrose:

Aquinas is the bully -threatening us with hell if we do not come under the Pope of Rome. Likoudis is a bully for repeating Aquinas’ false teaching. Likoudis must also be a vast embarrassment to the modern Roman Catholic Church which has abandoned Aquinas’ teaching about our damnation.

Why should I concern myself with anything these two men have to say?

Nice out.

 

[SFH]

Fr Ambrose:

Have you actually read Aquinas’ "Against the errors of the Greeks (i.e., the Orthodox)?

He is writing about the Orthodox and it is the Orthodox whom he is condemning to hell because we are not subject to the Pope.

Is there anything one can say in charity about a man who writes with such hatred of his fellow man and condemns millions of them to Satan? Or what good can be said about Likoudis who echoes him?

Father Ambrose,
If you can’t address the substantive arguments of St. Thomas Aquinas, then admit it and move on. These personal attacks against Mr. Likoudis, St. Thomas Aquinas, and EWTN Catholic priests don’t prove anything.

 

[SFH]

StMarkEofE:

Aquinas must have missed reading the biblical passage, and I paraphrase: “judge not lest ye be judged”.

StMarkEofE

Which ironically, you turn around and do when you judge St. Thomas Aquinas.

 

[SFH]

Fr Ambrose:

So you are speaking as a cradle Catholic and are saying that both scripture (Saint Paul) and Catholic theology (Thomas Aquinas) teach that the Orthodox go to hell because we refuse to be uner the Pope?

I think that you are propagating heresy under the guise of Catholicism.

This coming from a former Catholic who renounced the views he once professed and broke his vow of obedience to the bishop and Holy Father???

 

[SFH]

Fr Ambrose:

By saying that to us you are proving the point that the Church to which you belong cannot be the Church founded by Christ the Saviour.

I missed the argument behind that one. Can you develop your position more?

 

[steve_b]

Fr Ambrose:

So you are speaking as a cradle Catholic and are saying that both scripture (Saint Paul) and Catholic theology (Thomas Aquinas) teach that the Orthodox go to hell because we refuse to be uner the Pope?

I think that you are propagating heresy under the guise of Catholicism.

1. Focus on what Paul said. Those who divide and stay divided won’t inherit heaven. Paul said that not me.
2. So I asked you what you thought of what Paul said.
3. As I said, it seemed to me Aquinas was paraphrasing Paul.

You’re the one making a big issue over what Aquinas said. Well, what about what Paul said???

 

[steve_b]

Fr Ambrose:

Yes, a certain amount of credit must be given to the Pope. As a Catholic theologian has noted: “But it’s also heavily exaggerated by papal propagandists. After all, the Soviet regime did not fail because of the pope (before the arrival of Gorbachev, the pope was achieving about as little as he is now achieving in China), but instead imploded because of the Soviet system’s inherent economic and social contradictions.”

We must also look at the spiritual reality - there were the prayers of millions of Orthodox Christians every day and night in all their churches and in their home prayers .

There was also the blood and the prayers of the 20 million Orthodox martyred by the communists and gathered before the throne of the Lamb. This is, from the real viewpoint of God’s verities, the true reason why communism came crashing down so quickly - the blood of the holy martyrs.

Joseph Stalin once dismissed the Vatican’s influence by asking, “How many divisions does the pope have?” In the end, that didn’t matter. The pope and two stalwart Western leaders helped topple the entire Soviet empire without moving a single division across a border. As Reagan himself said in his 1989 Farewell Address. “Not bad, not bad at all.”

Taken from
opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110005181

 

[Matthew_P]

Dear SFH,

I think that Father Ambrose is really addressing a more fundamental difference of how we as Orthodox Christians view things which is the result of our living experience in the Orthodox Catholic Church. We have seen in one of the other threads the notion expressed that the Bishop of Rome kissing the Koran might better be perceived as an expression of love and that such an expression either was greater than or tantamount to the blood spilled by our Holy Martyrs that preferred to die instead of doing such things. In this there is an inconsistency and profound conflict which comes from our different understandings. We have also seen comments here and in other threads that JPII was able to bring down communism and that the Orthodox should be grateful for all the prayers of Roman Catholics who helped bring down communism. Surely all Christians are grateful when others pray for them and help in numerous ways which many Roman Catholics have done and continue to do. However, Father Ambrose was correct in bringing up that rivers of blood had been poured out by Orthodox Christians who opposed the Godless communist with their spirits and their bodies. Many Priest’s had been crucified on the walls of Orthodox Churches, countless older women and younger Orthodox Christians had been tortured in the most brutal of ways. Those that died in such ways can not and do not place crowns on their own heads, and might well have regretted that they couldn’t do more to save one of the 80,000 or so Orthodox Churches or Monasteries that had been destroyed. We hear of similar stories from our beloved Patriarch Pavlo of Serbia to this very day. While the destruction in Serbia of Orthodox Churches is going on now and when it is over we will rightfully continue to give glory to God and sing hymns of thanksgiving to our God keeping in mind the Glorified Holy Martyrs. We will be thankful and are thankful now for the prayers of so many including a Baptist preacher who when seeing the destruction in Serbia first hand in front of a destroyed Church fell to his knees and wept for hours on end. When he got up he looked like he had just been through a war. He went home with the knowledge that the Orthodox “got soul” that is hard for him to describe. In short, I don’t believe that equating the witness of spilled blood with my prayers sitting in an air condition room while laying down on a soft bed or knelling on a padded carpet would be of dimension for I don’t know and I’m not at this time (able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height) since I find it difficult to even keep the fast. Even with such a disposition, it is overwhelming to know that after our local Parish Priest incenses the wall of our Church with the Holy Icons of the New Martyrs and ancient Martyrs that he turns to the faithful present and incenses us as well. It’s all connected you see.

I have communicated with Jim Likoudis and have heard him very cunningly distort the teachings of many including one of those more recent Saint’s whose Icon is on the wall. Some of those who are older in the unia remember the removal of the Icons from their Churches via the Latin directives some opposed the dismantling of their tradition some accepted it and some never know the difference. Even in your oun rite this very day there are those that have opposed the changes that have taken place and are no longer in unity with Rome. They are not looked upon in the best light by Rome at this time.

 

[Matthew_P]

I watched a program on EWTN a while ago and found something that a well known and very lovable Priest had said to be rather disturbing. I have come to the conclusion that correct Patristic tradition is necessary for correct interpretation of Holy Writ. I recall the lovable Priest speaking about the very serious sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. He gave the example of a man going to confession and confessing that he was living with a woman and not married and he knows that it is a sin but has no intention of correcting the situation. This he called the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Surely there are many sincere people who struggle with sins and intention as well as emotions. Saying such implies that there is no hope for such people. Suffice it to say many people view the EWTN program, as such I think that what is said is important as it really does effect people and some things should be expressed very accurately. As I mentioned earlier, from the Orthodox Christian perspective repentance is available until your last breath, like the wise thief on the cross and there is always hope with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Orthodox understanding of Matthew 12:32 is that the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is against the divine activity of the Spirit - the accusation that Jesus Christ healed the demonic by demonic power (v. 24). rather than the power of the Holy Spirit (v. 28; see Mark 3.29, 30) Every sin against the Son of Man can be forgiven, because the Jews do not yet know much about him. But the blasphemy against the Spirit, whose divine activity they know from the OT, will not be forgiven. This blasphemy is a willful hardness of heart. It attributes the saving action of the Spirit to Satan and refuses to accept God’s forgiveness and mercy. Such a person would not even be in a confessional booth I don’t think.

As far as Why Father Ambrose should be concerned anything these two men have to say or anyone else? I don’t think it was a “nice out.” Sometimes there is no “nice out” just a very wise out.

I will offer no comments on the Filioque and Eastern Christian Trinitarian understanding as I cannot comphrehend the mechanics of such things. However I have a “nice out”.

St. Gregory Nazianzen: On Who May Philosophize About God

Not to every one, my friends, does it belong to philosophize about God; not to every one; the Subject is not so cheap and low; and I will add, not before every audience, nor at all times, nor on all points; but on certain occasions, and before certain persons, and within certain limits.

Not to all men, because it is permitted only to those who have been examined, and are passed masters in meditation, and who have been previously purified in soul and body, or at the very least are being purified. For the impure to touch the pure is, we may safely say, not safe, just as it is unsafe to fix weak eyes upon the sun’s rays. And what is the permitted occasion? It is when we are free from all external defilement or disturbance, and when that which rules within us is not confused with vexatious or erring images; like persons mixing up good writing with bad, or filth with the sweet odours of unguents. For it is necessary to be truly at leisure to know God; and when we can get a convenient season, to discern the straight road of the things divine. And who are the permitted persons? They to whom the subject is of real concern, and not they who make it a matter of pleasant gossip, like any other thing, after the races, or the theatre, or a concert, or a dinner, or still lower employments. To such men as these, idle jests and pretty contradictions about these subjects are a part of their amusement.

First Theological Oration [27].III

Father Ambrose has a plethora of “nice outs”.

Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright, His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. ‘He is good’, He says ‘to the evil and to the impious.’ How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers?..How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over all his wealth? Where, then, is God’s justice, for while we are sinners Christ died for us! (St Isaac of Syria)

In Christ,
Matthew Panchisin

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

SFH:

This coming from a former Catholic who renounced the views he once professed and broke his vow of obedience to the bishop and Holy Father???

You are presuming too much. I find your insinuations a bit disturbing. Obviously you simply want to attack me personally and to rile me. Why are you doing this?