Finding other Catholic virgins

[BlueEyedLady]

Lots of responses in the past two hours!

Just getting back to the requests for clarification for post #32:

My suggestions were based upon what I thought to be probability and likelihood by observing locales and what kind of people those locales will tend to attract in number.

A woman/man who would like to meet a mate who shares their conservative values (including virginity) might turn to venues which are conducive to the more traditional methods of courting and relationship-building. These would places in which face-to-face interaction and low-pressure (not built upon superficial appearance) meetings are likely to occur. It’s no guarantee of virginity of course, but it’s not unreasonable to think that one who wants to develop a deeper connection with the opposite sex might enjoy an environment in which she can get to know a guy who isn’t seeking an object of lust, and who won’t care that her face is bare and her clothes have dirt on them, and her hands and hair are covered in clay. Outings such as community project-building, art classes, book clubs, pottery classes(lol) might draw a higher number of people who are attracted to that kind of socialization (Though I acknowledge a good point was made about there being a good number of hippies/liberals in such places, too). There’s a reason we don’t encourage people to meet “quality” mates at bars and clubs, and suggest other locales instead.

Regarding the subdued person: perhaps because their personality doesn’t orient them to mingle comfortably with a large group of people at any given time, they have a tendency to prefer limited one-on-one relationships. Just doing the numbers here: If being subdued or shy makes it difficult to attract and/or keep the attention of the opposite sex, that naturally means fewer interactions with the opposite sex, which naturally reduces the number of opportunities for sexual encounters. It’s not a concrete conclusion of course that shy/subdued people have few sexual partners and therefore outgoing/assertive people must naturally have a million notches on their bedposts; it’s simply taking statistical probability into consideration.

In giving the OPoster an opportunity to increase his chances of meeting more traditional, marriage-minded women (which is something those who value virginity are likely to be), I’m in no way presenting these options as some sort of fool-proof guarantee. When I typed my original post I was thinking about my personal observations regarding the people I’ve known who have been sexually conservative vs sexually liberal – where did they hang out?, what were their personalities?, what kind of appearances did they have?, etc.

I really think you’re off base here. “Promiscuous” women still read, like art, and perform community service. I really don’t know anyone who has so much sex that they lack the time or interest to do those things. It’s not like women who have sex spend all their time in bars and ones who don’t are Rhodes Scholars.

 

[thewanderer]

Not necessarily. If a person really didn’t hold sexuality as sacred, it would effect the marriage for a long time. However, as has been stated multiple times in this thread, non-virginity doesn’t always indicate a continuing lack of respect for the sacredness of the marital bond.

Exactly right. Also, being a non-virgin can include some other temporal side-effects, for instance, carrying an unknown STD which can be passed along. Again, not that these are insurmountable, not in the least, but its not exactly something that ceases to exist just because you love the other person.

 

[Fairwinds]

Not necessarily. If a person really didn’t hold sexuality as sacred, it would effect the marriage for a long time. However, as has been stated multiple times in this thread, non-virginity doesn’t always indicate a continuing lack of respect for the sacredness of the marital bond.

marital partners’ ideas about what’s important in a marriage evolve as their lives grow together. that’s assuming both partners mature. virginity might be the holy grail of marriage the day before the wedding, but a couple of years later, with jobs, small kids, debt, inlaws … it really won’t matter. except as fodder for fights.

 

[josh987654321]

A lot of people I saw thought sunday school and going to church was a complete joke. In college, I saw how much sex people were having, and under what circumstances. I saw how faith in jesus got put down and was viewed with contempt. I saw how people supported killing an unborn child as a form of birth control. Despite all of these things, I stood my ground. But you guys are right. The the non-practicing catholics who lost their virginity outside of marriage and think abortion is acceptable are so much more mature than I will ever be. With the stigma of doing such things being lost, it should be no wonder why they are happening more often.

lol, yes I agree, we do not lower the bar simply because the rest of society is.

It goes the same for the Catholic Church, do people think the Church should drop some issues such as “birth control” etc simply because the rest of society is?

Regarding the thread I started a while back about marriage, I’m not trying to hide anything. I am deeply skeptical of marriage today because of the pool of people that we have, the culture that a lot of people live by, and the unfair legal system governing those government contracts. Financially, I don’t see any reason to get married. As is evidenced by the old thread, the only true justification for marriage is spiritual, not financial (for a male that is). Many marriages fail because people were too casual about it, married the wrong person, or didn’t realize how long forever was. My initial comments may have been harsh, but that is how I feel.

I feel a similar way, oh man oh man, if only women had higher standards.

People might attack us for having “high” (there not actually high, it’s just societies is low) standards, but I wish more women had the same, it’s women who I wish had higher standards.

You see alot of shows like “How I met your mother” where women act just the same as the men do with sleeping around etc, as in your weird or something if your a virgin, or that promisuity/fornication or the loss of virginity is no big deal, well I’m sorry if people get offended but it is “a big deal” and I for one am sick of society pretending that sexual immorality is no big deal.

If I’m going to be with a SINGLE woman forever, then you better believe she has to meet my must-haves. If from the very beginning, I feel like she is lacking something (like her virginity) then it’s a lost cause to place bets on a sinking ship (the ship being the relationship). I am simply being bluntly honest with myself about what it will take to be with one woman forever and be 100% faithful to her. Being with one person forever is very hard to do and takes a tremendous amount of effort. If I’m going to accomplish that and be motivated to ride out the rough times, then she has to be able to give me the same gift on her wedding night, that I will give to her. There’s no point in getting married to a non-virgin, only to divorce 2 years later because it wasn’t what I wanted. If more people were bluntly honest like me, then there would be fewer divorces.

Like I said, I agree with a lot of what you have said especially about “virginity” however if I met a really nice women and I found out she had lost her virginity once or something and she had been living a chaste life ever since and was sorry for what she did, than I would certainly not cross her off of my books (so to speak).

It’s only if she lost her virginity and said “no big deal” that I would cross her off my list. It’s the “no big deal” part that really bothers me.

A lot of you mentioned how the past shouldn’t matter. That’s not how marriage works. People look at the past, present, and future when deciding if they should marry someone. A girl could be the most faithful church-goer who is active in church, volunteers all the time, and teaches Sunday school. But if that girl is an ex-drug user who has felony convictions and works at a fast food joint because she missed the boat in life, then all bets are off. I would not touch a girl like that. Call me harsh. Call me immature. Call me whatever. But most people don’t want to marry down, regardless of how in line with church teaching the person is now. The past is still very much alive and well. I want to at least marry someone who is like me.

Marry down?

I think your a bit harsh here, if a women did some of those things and was very sorry for what she did, I for one, would most certainly not cross her off my list. It’s only if they did some of those things and said or thought something like “no big deal.”

Like I said, if a women I was dating lost her virginity once and knew how much of a deal it was as she was very sorry and had been chaste for several years, I would feel upset (that I wish she knew better back than), but I would not cross her off of my list, we all make mistakes.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Allegra]

marital partners’ ideas about what’s important in a marriage evolve as their lives grow together. that’s assuming both partners mature. virginity might be the holy grail of marriage the day before the wedding, but a couple of years later, with jobs, small kids, debt, inlaws … it really won’t matter. except as fodder for fights.

Normal married people consider sexual intimacy important for the vast majority of their marriage. Lots of married couples suffer from sexual and intimacy issues, as is evidenced by this forum. Many of these problems stem from one or both partners not realizing the sacredness of sexual intimacy and its importance in their union. It’s not just viginity, it’s the couple’s entire understanding of the purpose of sex and how it relates to their marriage. This begins before the marriage, with the individuals beliefs about sexuality and chastity.

 

[psymajor]

At the end of the day, nobody wants to feel like they are getting the tail end of the deal. You TYPICALLY don’t see computer programmers and CEOs marrying fast food workers. You can’t expect to show up at a car dealership and trade in a used Geo Metro for a brand new Porsche Cayenne with no money down. Thinking that such nonsense like that is possible is downright silly in my eyes. If a woman wants the Rolls-Royce of commitment in a relationship (Marriage, what else?), then she better have the Rolls-Royce of sexual purity (her virginity). If you are going to consider following traditional values, it’s either all the way or not at all. I don’t think it’s fair for a woman to expect a man to follow the tradition of marrying her and being solely committed to her (spiritually, legally, socially, financially, etc) if she herself hasn’t been following her end of the tradition bargain (being a virgin on her wedding night). If one of the sides has followed tradition only part of the time, then it points to an increased possibility of other motives, as well as the high possibility of less impulse control. I am not saying I am a perfect, sin-free catholic because I’m not. But I did not commit the particular sin being discussed, as well as nothing that would bar me from meaningful employment. I expect no less from my future spouse.

 

[josh987654321]

if you (the generic you) could choke down the thought of marrying a non-virgin, and did so, three months into the marriage it won’t matter in the least – unless you keep picking away at it.

? can you explain please.

It’s simply fact that the less and less sacred ones sexuality becomes, the less and less intimate their marriage will be, isn’t that obvious?

I wouldn’t say “virgin” but I certainly wouldn’t be okay with “multiple sexual partners” and I certainly would be crossing them off my list if they lost their virginity and said “no big deal.”

We all make mistakes and I would forgive, but the sacredness of ones sexuality is a big deal.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Fairwinds]

Normal married people consider sexual intimacy important for the vast majority of their marriage. Lots of married couples suffer from sexual and intimacy issues, as is evidenced by this forum. Many of these problems stem from one or both partners not realizing the sacredness of sexual intimacy and its importance in their union. It’s not just viginity, it’s the couple’s entire understanding of the purpose of sex and how it relates to their marriage. This begins before the marriage, with the individuals beliefs about sexuality and chastity.

would your opinion be any different if the nonvirgin were chaste at the time of marriage? because that’s the important thing here. would Mary Magdalene make a good wife after she became a disciple of Christ? the OP doesn’t think so. do you?

 

[Allegra]

At the end of the day, nobody wants to feel like they are getting the tail end of the deal. You TYPICALLY don’t see computer programmers and CEOs marrying fast food workers. You can’t expect to show up at a car dealership and trade in a used Geo Metro for a brand new Porsche Cayenne with no money down. Thinking that such nonsense like that is possible is downright silly in my eyes. If a woman wants the Rolls-Royce of commitment in a relationship (Marriage, what else?), then she better have the Rolls-Royce of sexual purity (her virginity). If you are going to consider following traditional values, it’s either all the way or not at all. I don’t think it’s fair for a woman to expect a man to follow the tradition of marrying her and being solely committed to her (spiritually, legally, socially, financially, etc) if she herself hasn’t been following her end of the tradition bargain (being a virgin on her wedding night). If one of the sides has followed tradition only part of the time, then it points to an increased possibility of other motives, as well as the high possibility of less impulse control. I am not saying I am a perfect, sin-free catholic because I’m not. But I did not commit the particular sin being discussed, as well as nothing that would bar me from meaningful employment. I expect no less from my future spouse.

Yeah…another instance of comparing the most sacred human relation in God’s plan to purchasing a vechicle. That’s what I love to see.

 

[Kamaduck]

Hey, psy. I’m kind of sorry how this thread turned out for you, but I do think a lot of the critiques are legitimate.

I don’t think it’s a problem that you want to marry a virgin. It’s not a sentiment I share, but I can understand from your life experiences why you might see it as important.

I think you should focus on finding someone witn similar values to yourself- since you value virginity, those people are more likely to be virgins (I would think). Definitely want to meet people in your church or in church-related events. If there’s not a lot going on in your parish, maybe help out at some nearby ones. However- do not, under any circumstances, try to turn a Christ-centered activity into a hunt for a girlfriend. If you can’t find any nearby stuff like that, I still suggest the dating site idea.

I’m going to be frank- your posts do sound disrespectful to women- all women, including virgins. You say that being chaste is easy for women. I kind of want to laugh at that. We make sacrifices for the sake chastity, same as you. Respect that.

I think you would be wise to note that many of the responses focus on your use of language, and not your actual requirement. It’s OK to have high standards- but the women you’re interested in are also likely to have high standards! One of those standards might be “is not selfish”. Regardless of whether you are, you evidently sound a lot like you are. You might want to consider whether it’s possible. Even if you’re not, you definitely want to work on communication. Communication is kind of important in relationships.

Now, as far as your statement that everyone who is a non-married non-virgin has committed a mortal sin by having sex, this is simply untrue. Some did not have full knowledge, and some did not give full consent. You might want to think about how you would react to women with such pasts.

Anyways, yeah. Tough subject, but I hope you mature into the man God intended you to be, and that you (eventually, possibly after a lot of growing up) find a woman who you can love fully. Blessings.

P.S. - Comparing virginity to money is distasteful, IMO. You should probably avoid any language that compares virginity to something that can be bought. It treads far too close to considering women property. Again, that’s just the message it sends to me- but I bet it sends it to some other people, too. Maybe think about that.

 

[Allegra]

would your opinion be any different if the nonvirgin were chaste at the time of marriage? because that’s the important thing here. would Mary Magdalene make a good wife after she became a disciple of Christ? the OP doesn’t think so. do you?

Certainly, it would. It would make all the difference. Have I somehow managed to misconvey the notion that I agree with or approve of the OP’s attitude? I’m not sure how I did that! I was commenting on Josh’s comment that when people don’t value the sacredness of sex before marriage, their marriage will be negatively affected. If a person makes a mistake and learns from it, that is another matter. I imagine that there are even some cases of couples discovering the benefits of holding sex as sacred well into their marriage.

 

[psymajor]

Yeah…another instance of comparing the most sacred human relation in God’s plan to purchasing a vechicle. That’s what I love to see.

It’s not the greatest analogy, but it gets the point across. Both ends of the tradition bargain have to be kept for it to be a fair trade. If one sides works hard at honoring the bargain, and the other slipped up, it’s not a fair anymore.

 

[Fairwinds]

At the end of the day, nobody wants to feel like they are getting the tail end of the deal. You TYPICALLY don’t see computer programmers and CEOs marrying fast food workers. You can’t expect to show up at a car dealership and trade in a used Geo Metro for a brand new Porsche Cayenne with** no money down.** Thinking that such nonsense like that is possible is downright silly in my eyes. If a woman wants the Rolls-Royce of commitment in a relationship (Marriage, what else?), then she better have the Rolls-Royce of sexual purity (her virginity). If you are going to consider following traditional values, it’s either all the way or not at all. I don’t think it’s fair for a woman to expect a man to follow the tradition of marrying her and being solely committed to her (spiritually, legally, socially,** financially, **etc) if she herself hasn’t been following her end of the tradition **bargain **(being a virgin on her wedding night). If one of the sides has followed tradition only part of the time, then it points to an increased possibility of other motives, as well as the high possibility of less impulse control. I am not saying I am a perfect, sin-free catholic because I’m not. But I did not commit the particular sin being discussed, as well as nothing that would bar me from meaningful employment. I expect no less from my future spouse.

(emphasis added)

that’s really creepy. but now we have a better notion of your true priorities.

FWIW, if you can’t trade in a used Geo Metro for a new Porsche Cayenne, no money down, you’re not much of a negotiator.

 

[josh987654321]

At the end of the day, nobody wants to feel like they are getting the tail end of the deal. You TYPICALLY don’t see computer programmers and CEOs marrying fast food workers.

I would.

Haven’t you heard, “You cannot serve both God and money” and “Your heart will always be where you treasure is?”

Whats her career got to do with anything? When you are married I doubt “she is bringing in lots of money” or “she has a good career” will be worth much.

You can’t expect to show up at a car dealership and trade in a used Geo Metro for a brand new Porsche Cayenne with no money down. Thinking that such nonsense like that is possible is downright silly in my eyes.

People are not like cars though.

If a woman wants the Rolls-Royce of commitment in a relationship (Marriage, what else?), then she better have the Rolls-Royce of sexual purity (her virginity). If you are going to consider following traditional values, it’s either all the way or not at all.

Sinless or full of sin? Where do you draw the lines? As far as I am concerned, we all make mistakes, however her sexuality would need to be sacred and the sacredness of ones sexuality would have to be a big deal.

I don’t think it’s fair for a woman to expect a man to follow the tradition of marrying her and being solely committed to her (spiritually, legally, socially, financially, etc) if she herself hasn’t been following her end of the tradition bargain (being a virgin on her wedding night). If one of the sides has followed tradition only part of the time, then it points to an increased possibility of other motives, as well as the high possibility of less impulse control. I am not saying I am a perfect, sin-free catholic because I’m not. But I did not commit the particular sin being discussed, as well as nothing that would bar me from meaningful employment. I expect no less from my future spouse.

Well, I know that there is not a “one size fits all” when it comes to this, so i would not say “virgin” and if a really lovely women made a mistake, than I would not be saying that it was a “deal breaker.”

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Fairwinds]

Certainly, it would. It would make all the difference. Have I somehow managed to misconvey the notion that I agree with or approve of the OP’s attitude? I’m not sure how I did that! I was commenting on Josh’s comment that when people don’t value the sacredness of sex before marriage, their marriage will be negatively affected. If a person makes a mistake and learns from it, that is another matter. I imagine that there are even some cases of couples discovering the benefits of holding sex as sacred well into their marriage.

ok, I stand corrected.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

At the end of the day, nobody wants to feel like they are getting the tail end of the deal. You TYPICALLY don’t see computer programmers and CEOs marrying fast food workers. You can’t expect to show up at a car dealership and trade in a used Geo Metro for a brand new Porsche Cayenne with no money down. Thinking that such nonsense like that is possible is downright silly in my eyes. If a woman wants the Rolls-Royce of commitment in a relationship (Marriage, what else?), then she better have the Rolls-Royce of sexual purity (her virginity). If you are going to consider following traditional values, it’s either all the way or not at all. I don’t think it’s fair for a woman to expect a man to follow the tradition of marrying her and being solely committed to her (spiritually, legally, socially, financially, etc) if she herself hasn’t been following her end of the tradition bargain (being a virgin on her wedding night). If one of the sides has followed tradition only part of the time, then it points to an increased possibility of other motives, as well as the high possibility of less impulse control. I am not saying I am a perfect, sin-free catholic because I’m not. But I did not commit the particular sin being discussed, as well as nothing that would bar me from meaningful employment. I expect no less from my future spouse.

You don’t need to worry about finding a wife because you are nowhere near ready to marry. Your assumptions are pretty outdated. For instance, women stopped needing to marry for financial support long ago, and women don’t long for marriage like they used to. Often times it’s the man who wants to marry.

My marriage certainly doesn’t fit in your worldview. I have a pretty extensive history, my husband was a virgin when we met. He wanted to marry me and it took a long time for me to understand why he wanted to instead of just living together forever. We make about the same amount of money, though in 5 years I will be close to double his salary. If he chose to switch back into public accounting and get his CPA we would eventually be about the same though.

I think it’s very interesting that you think a woman would lie about being a devout catholic to marry someone of a higher social standing. Are virginal catholic men really making more on average than men who are willing to have sex before the wedding? I really don’t see a phony woman going without sex for several years just to marry a catholic and get her hands on his money.

 

[Allegra]

It’s not the greatest analogy, but it gets the point across. Both ends of the tradition bargain have to be kept for it to be a fair trade. If one sides works hard at honoring the bargain, and the other slipped up, it’s not a fair anymore.

It does indeed get your point across. It also supports BlueEyedLady’s comment about “being creepy.”

 

[Kamaduck]

It’s not the greatest analogy, but it gets the point across. Both ends of the tradition bargain have to be kept for it to be a fair trade. If one sides works hard at honoring the bargain, and the other slipped up, it’s not a fair anymore.

I don’t think it’s fair that Jesus died for me, even though he was perfect.

Christianity’s not really big on “fair”.

Again, I’m not saying you should cave to the culture and lower your standards. Just please believe me that comparing virginity to money and objects that are routinely bought and sold is really, really dang creepy. It shouldn’t be about “fair”- it should be about following God and adhering to his plan for you.

 

[edwest2]

I agree with you, however when you say “Catholics” they are probably cradle catholics. It really boils down to, “I would not like to find out my future wife (whoever she may be) had another sexual partner and thus it would be wrong for me to do it to her or for her to do it to me.”

Unfortunately sexual immorality is on the rise, just look at how many advocate same sex marriage. I certainly don’t plan on lowering the bar just because the rest of society is.

It pisses me off when people say things like “Take what you can get.” Or “If your standards are that high (over something like virginity) than you don’t deserve or you wont find someone.” When they say things like “Your standards are too high, your dreaming or that’s not reality or scoff with something sarcastic like good luck.”

Absolutely

I agree.

I think it’s the same for women as it is for men. I would have just said “If I can do it, than they should be able to too.”

I would also say “I don’t want to lower the bar or settle, just because the majority of society is embracing sexual immorality.”

As Jesus said “servants don’t deserve special thanks for doing what they are supposed to do.”

however remember that if they have fallen short, say they had sex once and were very sorry and chaste for many years etc than that certainly wouldn’t be a deal breaker, because we all make mistakes.

I don’t know.

In saying all of this, I agree with a lot of what you have said especially about “virginity” however if I met a really nice women and I found out she had lost her virginity once or something and she had been living a chaste life ever since and was very sorry for what she did, than I would certainly not cross her off of my books (so to speak).

Our sexuality is sacred, the less and less sacred our sexuality becomes, the less and less intimate our marriage will become.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Well done, Josh. The “let’s lower the bar even more club” has made certain that adding a bit more and a bit more and a bit more sex to movies and TV programs has produced the gradual desensitizing to sin they desired. Now it’s, “Everybody’s doing it, so what’s your problem?”

We are now, as a society, and as individuals, at that point where Catholics, at least, have got to wake up to the fact that men and women were gradually deceived into believing well-planned lies and deceptions. Small groups got their access on the radio and other media to spread lies and create suspicion. As a boy, I was taught gossip was to be avoided entirely. To make up false stories was wrong. Today? Gossip Girl on TV.

The Bible is pretty clear on all this, but God is left out of the equation. A non-virgin is somehow given automatic powers for “good” while virgins are made out to be suspect or bad. All this is is more of the same. Good bad. Bad good. You say you want a virgin? You fool!!

Self-respect.

Respecting others.

Honor.

Virtue (as in, a virtuous man or woman)

Your good name - unsullied and worthy of respect due to the words of friends and neighbors. No, no man, is perfect. But to try - today? You fool!! Why labor at virtue and just go out and do it!

Pleasure über alles !

biblehub.com/romans/1-32.htm

May God have mercy,
Ed

 

[psymajor]

(emphasis added)

that’s really creepy. but now we have a better notion of your true priorities.

FWIW, if you can’t trade in a used Geo Metro for a new Porsche Cayenne, no money down, you’re not much of a negotiator.

I don’t mean for trade-in value, I mean handing the Metro over and expecting a Cayenne without adding extra money to the deal.

I don’t know why you are focusing on money. If a girl I was with made 35k and I made 50k, I would be fine with it as long as I felt she was the real deal and not the “I’m Catholic so the players leave me alone” type. Marriage is a contract before God. The point I’m trying to hammer home is that I’m going to try hard in a marriage because I know it’s a buttload of work. But I expect equal effort from the woman I’m with, and that includes her protecting her sexual purity. I protected mine, so I don’t see that as an outrageous request. I won’t tolerate less effort than what I put into it.