Finding other Catholic virgins

[Fairwinds]

It’s not the greatest analogy, but it gets the point across. Both ends of the** tradition bargain have to be kept for it to be a fair trade. ** If one sides works hard at honoring the bargain, and the other slipped up, it’s not a **fair **anymore.

(emphasis added)

what are you offering for her virginity?

 

[SalesianSDB]

After reading threads like this, I am thankful that the Savior is merciful and willing to accept us and love us, broken and sinful as we are.

I am not perfect, I fail and have sinned (yes, even mortal sins), but you know what? I try my best to follow Christ and sometimes fall short. But I get up, ask forgiveness, and carry on.

I’m only 20, but I believe that for a marriage to work, you have to accept the other’s baggage and past. Yes, they won’t be perfect and things in their past may not be the best, but have they changed? I know I change for the better and mature daily. Every day I try to follow Christ better than the day before and unfortunately, there are things in my past I can’t erase. I just hope that my spouse would be willing to accept that fact and see the person I’ve become, a disciple of Christ. And I will lovingly do the same for her.

That is my view of marriage and love. But what do I know? I’m only 20.

As I said, the Savior is merciful. He accepts all of us and calls all of us regardless of our past. All He asks for is a conversion of the heart and of our lives. I want to follow his lead!

 

[Kamaduck]

Marriage is a contract before God. The point I’m trying to hammer home is that I’m going to try hard in a marriage because I know it’s a buttload of work. But I expect equal effort from the woman I’m with, and that includes her protecting her sexual purity. I protected mine, so I don’t see that as an outrageous request. I won’t tolerate less effort than what I put into it.

**Stick with that wording. Never, ever compare virginity to money and cars ever again. **

I think it’s still problematic in that you’re still viewing marriage as being an equal trade (rather than being about total self-giving), but it’s much less creepy than comparing virginity to objects that are bought and sold.

 

[SalesianSDB]

I think it’s still problematic in that you’re still viewing marriage as being an equal trade (rather than being about total self-giving)

I think most married men would say that their marriage isn’t an equal trade and their wives got the short end of it.

 

[Fairwinds]

I don’t mean for trade-in value, I mean handing the Metro over and expecting a Cayenne without adding extra money to the deal.

I’ve done something like that, its not uncommon. why do you think that’s something special?

I don’t know why you are focusing on money.

your own words

If a girl I was with made 35k and I made 50k, I would be fine with it as long as I felt she was the real deal and not the “I’m Catholic so the players leave me alone” type. Marriage is a contract before God. The point I’m trying to hammer home is that I’m going to try hard in a marriage because I know it’s a buttload of work. But I expect equal effort from the woman I’m with, and that includes her protecting her sexual purity. I protected mine, so I don’t see that as an outrageous request. I won’t tolerate less effort than what I put into it.

so, Mary Magdalene isn’t good enough for you. right? that’s not a rhetorical question.

 

[Fairwinds]

…

Pleasure über alles !..

the OP is obsessed with virginity – in particular, the trade value of virginity – rather than concerned with chastity. you know there’s a difference, right?

 

[Allegra]

I won’t tolerate less effort than what I put into it.

Oh boy!
Okay, let’s try a different analogy. I assume you agree with the Church’s teaching on being open to life and are looking forward to accepting children as a gift from God. Perhaps you’ve thought of what you hope your future children will be like. Perhaps you hope your child will be alot like you. Maybe he and you will bond over playing a certain sport that you like. Or maybe you hope he will be the top of his class at school. There is nothing wrong with this.

However, perhaps when your first child is born, you realize that he has spina bifida and will be semi paralysed. It would be normal for you to be sad that your son will not be able to play the sport you play…or he might have to use a walker to get around…or he might have health concerns you hadn’t thought of.

At the same time, it would be rediculous to be angry and say, “This is unfair. I’ve always worked so hard on my health and my athletic ability and I want a son who is just like me. Why should I have to settle for an imperfect son? Spina bifida doesn’t fit into my idea of a perfect family.” Of course you would never say such a thing! This child is the one God gave to you. He is not “beneath you”. He is exactly what you need and he needs you as well. The same unconditional love that we have for our imperfect children is the love we are meant to have for our spouse. That’s what appears to be missing from every one of your posts and that is why we are saying that you are not ready for marriage.

No one is saying you need to marry a promiscuous woman or a woman who doesn’t appreciate the importance of sexuality. What we are saying is that you should not be so concerned with what a woman has to offer you in a bargain, but instead, you should be preparing your heart to forgive and love unconditionally because without that, your marriage definately will fail!

 

[1ke]

At the end of the day, nobody wants to feel like they are getting the tail end of the deal. You TYPICALLY don’t see computer programmers and CEOs marrying fast food workers. You can’t expect to show up at a car dealership and trade in a used Geo Metro for a brand new Porsche Cayenne with no money down. Thinking that such nonsense like that is possible is downright silly in my eyes. If a woman wants the Rolls-Royce of commitment in a relationship (Marriage, what else?), then she better have the Rolls-Royce of sexual purity (her virginity). If you are going to consider following traditional values, it’s either all the way or not at all. I don’t think it’s fair for a woman to expect a man to follow the tradition of marrying her and being solely committed to her (spiritually, legally, socially, financially, etc) if she herself hasn’t been following her end of the tradition bargain (being a virgin on her wedding night). If one of the sides has followed tradition only part of the time, then it points to an increased possibility of other motives, as well as the high possibility of less impulse control. I am not saying I am a perfect, sin-free catholic because I’m not. But I did not commit the particular sin being discussed, as well as nothing that would bar me from meaningful employment. I expect no less from my future spouse.

Have you considered therapy?

 

[josh987654321]

the OP is obsessed with virginity – in particular, the trade value of virginity – rather than concerned with chastity. you know there’s a difference, right?

But remember Fairwinds, while forgiveness is important, the past does have relevance. There are certainly past things that are deal breakers for marriage regardless of who they are today, for exmaple if they have previously been validly married.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[thewanderer]

At the end of the day, nobody wants to feel like they are getting the tail end of the deal. You TYPICALLY don’t see computer programmers and CEOs marrying fast food workers. You can’t expect to show up at a car dealership and trade in a used Geo Metro for a brand new Porsche Cayenne with no money down. Thinking that such nonsense like that is possible is downright silly in my eyes. If a woman wants the Rolls-Royce of commitment in a relationship (Marriage, what else?), then she better have the Rolls-Royce of sexual purity (her virginity). If you are going to consider following traditional values, it’s either all the way or not at all. I don’t think it’s fair for a woman to expect a man to follow the tradition of marrying her and being solely committed to her (spiritually, legally, socially, financially, etc) if she herself hasn’t been following her end of the tradition bargain (being a virgin on her wedding night). If one of the sides has followed tradition only part of the time, then it points to an increased possibility of other motives, as well as the high possibility of less impulse control. I am not saying I am a perfect, sin-free catholic because I’m not. But I did not commit the particular sin being discussed, as well as nothing that would bar me from meaningful employment. I expect no less from my future spouse.

OP, I don’t understand entirely exactly what you think marriage is, but I can assure you that with this attitude you do not understand it. Marriage is not about seeking 50-50, its not about making sure you get your fair share, it is about unconditional giving to another. Yes, choose that other wisely, but once you have chosen, thats it, once you are married there is no room for the idea that you are owed anything. Instead it is your job to focus on what you can give your spouse. Period. Its tough, its an extremely tough thing, but thats what marriage is about. The fact that you keep focusing on it as though your vows are conditional upon your wife holding up her end of the bargain is very very problematic. That view of marriage is destructive and needs to be eradicated before you attempt to marry because if it isn’t it will eat away at your marriage and destroy it.

I don’t think it’s fair that Jesus died for me, even though he was perfect.

Christianity’s not really big on “fair”.

Again, I’m not saying you should cave to the culture and lower your standards. Just please believe me that comparing virginity to money and objects that are routinely bought and sold is really, really dang creepy. It shouldn’t be about “fair”- it should be about following God and adhering to his plan for you.

Excellent post!

**Stick with that wording. Never, ever compare virginity to money and cars ever again. **

I think it’s still problematic in that you’re still viewing marriage as being an equal trade (rather than being about total self-giving), but it’s much less creepy than comparing virginity to objects that are bought and sold.

Also this!

I don’t mean for trade-in value, I mean handing the Metro over and expecting a Cayenne without adding extra money to the deal.

I don’t know why you are focusing on money. If a girl I was with made 35k and I made 50k, I would be fine with it as long as I felt she was the real deal and not the “I’m Catholic so the players leave me alone” type.

what if she doesn’t make any money? What if you marry her and she changes and decides that she wants you to stay at home with the kids? what if you marry her and she becomes disabled and so is no longer able to put in anywhere near the same amount of effort you put in. Would you feel as though you had been jipped? Would you be upset because she is not keeping up “her end of the bargain”? When you make the vows of marriage you vow to love that person no matter what, even if they change and become the worst sinner you’ve ever known, even if they get so depressed they just laze about the house all day, even if they just get lazy and laze about the house all day. You will still have made a promise to them which you are still bound to keep and which will be practically impossible to keep if you focus on what they owe you. Marriage is not for the faint of heart and it is not for those who are seeking assurance of getting out of it what they put in.

Marriage is a contract before God.

Yes, it is a contract before God that you will live a life of unconditional love and service for the other person. A sense of entitlement is destructive of a true healthy marriage.

The point I’m trying to hammer home is that I’m going to try hard in a marriage because I know it’s a buttload of work. But I expect equal effort from the woman I’m with, and that includes her protecting her sexual purity. I protected mine, so I don’t see that as an outrageous request. I won’t tolerate less effort than what I put into it.

Once you’re married there is no room left for demands of exact equality. The vows of marriage are not vows to give and love only if you get. They are vows to love unconditionally, no matter what. It is not a tit-for-tat contract, it is a covenant of love.

 

[Fairwinds]

But remember Fairwinds, while forgiveness is important, the past does have relevance. There are certainly past things that are deal breakers for marriage regardless of who they are today, for exmaple if they have previously been validly married.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

if God has forgiven a sin, I’m not the one to keep it on the front burner.

otherwise, we seem to agree.

things in the past like a commercial mentality towards marriage and the Fair Market Value of virginity according to Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, are likely to poison any future marital relationship. you can’t alter the past, but its entirely possible that (1) the OP’s future ex spouse will forgive him and, (2) the OP will grow out of that mentality enough to give the marriage a chance.

 

[thewanderer]

Oh boy!
Okay, let’s try a different analogy. I assume you agree with the Church’s teaching on being open to life and are looking forward to accepting children as a gift from God. Perhaps you’ve thought of what you hope your future children will be like. Perhaps you hope your child will be alot like you. Maybe he and you will bond over playing a certain sport that you like. Or maybe you hope he will be the top of his class at school. There is nothing wrong with this.

However, perhaps when your first child is born, you realize that he has spina bifida and will be semi paralysed. It would be normal for you to be sad that your son will not be able to play the sport you play…or he might have to use a walker to get around…or he might have health concerns you hadn’t thought of.

At the same time, it would be rediculous to be angry and say, “This is unfair. I’ve always worked so hard on my health and my athletic ability and I want a son who is just like me. Why should I have to settle for an imperfect son? Spina bifida doesn’t fit into my idea of a perfect family.” Of course you would never say such a thing! This child is the one God gave to you. He is not “beneath you”. He is exactly what you need and he needs you as well. The same unconditional love that we have for our imperfect children is the love we are meant to have for our spouse. That’s what appears to be missing from every one of your posts and that is why we are saying that you are not ready for marriage.

No one is saying you need to marry a promiscuous woman or a woman who doesn’t appreciate the importance of sexuality. What we are saying is that you should not be so concerned with what a woman has to offer you in a bargain, but instead, you should be preparing your heart to forgive and love unconditionally because without that, your marriage definately will fail!

Another excellent post.

 

[Fairwinds]

…They are vows to love unconditionally, no matter what. It is not a tit-for-tat contract, it is a covenant of love.

the OP will discover what “in sickness and in health, for better or worse” really mean. and then what? what to do when she’s not pulling her weight because she’s got cancer and can’t even take care of the kids. its not fair! its not what he bargained for!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

the OP will discover what “in sickness and in health, for better or worse” really mean. and then what? what to do when she’s not pulling her weight because she’s got cancer and can’t even take care of the kids. its not fair! its not what he bargained for!

Having cared for my husband, then fiance, during a very serious, very painful illness after which he’s lucky to be alive for the better part of the last year I would like to be the first to assure the OP that any ideas of “fair”, any notions of prior agreements, and even your flashes of selfishness fly out the window as soon as the computer turns off and real life calls. You don’t go into marriage hoping to gain anything. You must go into it thinking only about what you can give.

 

[josh987654321]

No one is saying you need to marry a promiscuous woman or a woman who doesn’t appreciate the importance of sexuality. What we are saying is that you should not be so concerned with what a woman has to offer you in a bargain, but instead, you should be preparing your heart to forgive and love unconditionally because without that, your marriage definately will fail!

Psymajor, Instead of focusing on “I have preserved the sacredness of my sexuality, I will be pissed if my future wife whoever she may be doesn’t do the same.” it should be “I will preserve the sacredness of my sexuality because I want to give my self to my future wife whoever she may be completely and fully” and thus vice versa she will want to do the same as you will be like minded.

The whole reason for you not dropping the bar, shouldn’t be because you want something from your future wife whoever she may be, but because you want to give something to your future wife whoever she may be.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[psymajor]

Oh boy!
Okay, let’s try a different analogy. I assume you agree with the Church’s teaching on being open to life and are looking forward to accepting children as a gift from God. Perhaps you’ve thought of what you hope your future children will be like. Perhaps you hope your child will be alot like you. Maybe he and you will bond over playing a certain sport that you like. Or maybe you hope he will be the top of his class at school. There is nothing wrong with this.

However, perhaps when your first child is born, you realize that he has spina bifida and will be semi paralysed. It would be normal for you to be sad that your son will not be able to play the sport you play…or he might have to use a walker to get around…or he might have health concerns you hadn’t thought of.

At the same time, it would be rediculous to be angry and say, “This is unfair. I’ve always worked so hard on my health and my athletic ability and I want a son who is just like me. Why should I have to settle for an imperfect son? Spina bifida doesn’t fit into my idea of a perfect family.” Of course you would never say such a thing! This child is the one God gave to you. He is not “beneath you”. He is exactly what you need and he needs you as well. The same unconditional love that we have for our imperfect children is the love we are meant to have for our spouse. That’s what appears to be missing from every one of your posts and that is why we are saying that you are not ready for marriage.

No one is saying you need to marry a promiscuous woman or a woman who doesn’t appreciate the importance of sexuality. What we are saying is that you should not be so concerned with what a woman has to offer you in a bargain, but instead, you should be preparing your heart to forgive and love unconditionally because without that, your marriage definately will fail!

Of course I am open to the church’s teaching on life. I am pro-life all the way, even in the more controversial cases. A disabled child is not a fair comparison to a non-virgin woman. The child had no choice to be born that way. However, most women, had a choice to loose their virginity. Yes, a few were raped. But rape isn’t so common that there is a van on every street corner with a creeper who is looking for 4 year olds to scoop up. I don’t think non-virgins are the scum of the earth, but they just aren’t for me. Human society, regardless of religion or culture, is hierarchical in nature. It is natural for people to classify themselves and others into different classes. I KNOW that virginity is not an indicator of marital success. Neither is making sure the person has a certain income or is a certain race. I know marrying another virgin could result in a dead marriage. But I will sure as hell take my chances with a woman who held out over a woman who caved in. I know virginity isn’t the same as chastity. Obviously, I will look to see if I’m compatible with the girl and not just go for her on the grounds that she’s a virgin. But the point of having a relationship is ultimately to have lifelong happiness with the person you are with, underneath God. But if people can’t be honest about some of the core requirements or things that will be a turnoff, there will be problems.

 

[edwest2]

the OP will discover what “in sickness and in health, for better or worse” really mean. and then what? what to do when she’s not pulling her weight because she’s got cancer and can’t even take care of the kids. its not fair! its not what he bargained for!

Where did you get your “Gloom and Doom Predictor”? I don’t want one, just curious.

Perhaps you have the numbers for next week’s Lotto? I’ll gladly give you 5%.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Allegra]

Of course I am open to the church’s teaching on life. I am pro-life all the way, even in the more controversial cases. A disabled child is not a fair comparison to a non-virgin woman. The child had no choice to be born that way. However, most women, had a choice to loose their virginity. Yes, a few were raped. But rape isn’t so common that there is a van on every street corner with a creeper who is looking for 4 year olds to scoop up. I don’t think non-virgins are the scum of the earth, but they just aren’t for me. Human society, regardless of religion or culture, is hierarchical in nature. It is natural for people to classify themselves and others into different classes. I KNOW that virginity is not an indicator of marital success. Neither is making sure the person has a certain income or is a certain race. I know marrying another virgin could result in a dead marriage. But I will sure as hell take my chances with a woman who held out over a woman who caved in. I know virginity isn’t the same as chastity. Obviously, I will look to see if I’m compatible with the girl and not just go for her on the grounds that she’s a virgin. But the point of having a relationship is ultimately to have lifelong happiness with the person you are with, underneath God. But if people can’t be honest about some of the core requirements or things that will be a turnoff, there will be problems.

Alright, you completely missed the point there. Well, it was worth a shot.

 

[josh987654321]

Well done, Josh. The “let’s lower the bar even more club” has made certain that adding a bit more and a bit more and a bit more sex to movies and TV programs has produced the gradual desensitizing to sin they desired. Now it’s, “Everybody’s doing it, so what’s your problem?”

We are now, as a society, and as individuals, at that point where Catholics, at least, have got to wake up to the fact that men and women were gradually deceived into believing well-planned lies and deceptions. Small groups got their access on the radio and other media to spread lies and create suspicion. As a boy, I was taught gossip was to be avoided entirely. To make up false stories was wrong. Today? Gossip Girl on TV.

The Bible is pretty clear on all this, but God is left out of the equation. A non-virgin is somehow given automatic powers for “good” while virgins are made out to be suspect or bad. All this is is more of the same. Good bad. Bad good. You say you want a virgin? You fool!!

May God have mercy,
Ed

Thanks Ed, I agree, in today’s society virginity is seen as odd or unusual, which annoys me, it seems that the media is really pushing for people to embrace sexual immorality, there are far too many young people who see sex as “harmless fun.”

It’s the exact same reason why same sex marriage is being embraced, because I really question the sexual morality of those who advocate the sexual acts of homosexuality as an encouraged varient of sexuality for society.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Allegra]

Where did you get your “Gloom and Doom Predictor”? I don’t want one, just curious.

Perhaps you have the numbers for next week’s Lotto? I’ll gladly give you 5%.

Peace,
Ed

Even if she doesn’t get cancer, there will be times when one or the other will be unable to “pull their weight” and the other will have to pick up the slack, physically, emotionally, and/or spiritually. That’s not doom and gloom. That’s reality. It’s actually a perk of marriage. Your spouse is supposed to help you through the hard times. As it’s been said, a marriage isn’t about equality, it’s about selfless giving.