Finding Saint Francis

[Marauder]

Well, I didn’t think they were tunics because they don’t close, but then, they have hoods and so I don’t know what else to call them. I assume they are only worn at meetings

I assume that isn’t a picture of a SFO meeting. The only habit we wear is the Tau cross.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Don’t be sorry, that’s exactly what I thought would be the situation considering how the constitutions were written.

I just wonder, what would you think Francis would hope for in a Lay community of … adherents? I guess?

When I was minister, we would alternate meetings—1 at the church, and 1 at a soup kitchen serving the poor. Regional didn’t like that idea, even though our soup kitchen “meetings” were attended at nearly double the number of people that came to regular meetings.

 

[Julia_Mae]

There not supposed to be any connection between the Secular Order and the Friars. They are two distinct orders with their own rule, constitutions, mission and commitment.

(from the Constitution, no. 4)The Holy See has entrusted the pastoral care and spiritual assistance of the Secular Franciscan Order (SFO), because it belongs to the same spiritual family, to the Franciscan First Order and Third Order Regular (TOR).

No penance that can be identified with Saint Francis.

That’s because there is no such thing. Francis’ four rules are very simple, “To live the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ.”

First, I was wrong. It’s a bit buried, though. Second, I beg to disagree. Francis followers did what first? Divested themselves of all personal property. (With very limited exceptions.) What is “the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?” People focus on different things. Mary and Martha both chose to serve, not in the same way. Francis identified with something fairly specific. He could have been Joseph of Arimathea and become a more successful cloth merchant, just a very devout and generous one. After all, everyone can’t give away all their stuff and beg for a living or no one will own anything to give each other. But he didn’t. He felt called to divesting himself of all attachment and the acquisition of suffering to acheive that end.

So Francis has his own way of living the Gospel, and to pursue a Franciscan spirituality, it seems to my limited understanding, is to embrace the elements of Francis’ charism. So, for instance, that would not include Scripture scholarship, but would include eschewing excess. Not that there are not Scripture scholars amongst Franciscans, of course, thinking of Saint Anthony, but that’s not a “Franciscan” ideal as much as trait of a specific Franciscan.

But Francis had not particular form of penance that was different from the rest of the Church.

It isn’t that a single thing is different from the rest, it is that certain things are emphasized over others. If that wasn’t true, there would be no Orders or need to discern amongst them. I carefully chose the name of the thread. It’s Francis I want to follow.

 

[Julia_Mae]

When I was minister, we would alternate meetings—1 at the church, and 1 at a soup kitchen serving the poor. Regional didn’t like that idea, even though our soup kitchen “meetings” were attended at nearly double the number of people that came to regular meetings.

I think Francis would be delighted. I did read that he and his friars often stayed at hospitals for Lepers.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I assume that isn’t a picture of a SFO meeting. The only habit we wear is the Tau cross.

Well, the website identifies itself as such, but I am finding that “Secular Franciscan” is applied rather loosely, so… ???

Speaking of the Tau, because it is the habit of the SFO, is it inappropriate for someone not SFO to wear one?

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Well, the website identifies itself as such, but I am finding that “Secular Franciscan” is applied rather loosely, so… ???

Speaking of the Tau, because it is the habit of the SFO, is it inappropriate for someone not SFO to wear one?

I don’t think so. It existed before the current SFO rules, after all.

I think that the Tau crucifixes are perfect,.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I think Francis would be delighted. I did read that he and his friars often stayed at hospitals for Lepers.

Even though it was my idea , I think so, too.

I really wish sometimes that there were other Franciscan third orders. There is the BSP (Brothers and Sisters of Penance), that follows the first rule…

 

[Marauder]

Well, the website identifies itself as such, but I am finding that “Secular Franciscan” is applied rather loosely, so… ???

Speaking of the Tau, because it is the habit of the SFO, is it inappropriate for someone not SFO to wear one?

It is possible that people other then SFO members were at the meeting. We usually have one or more Conventual friars at our meetings. Of course they don’t wear anything blue.

Anyone can where the Tau cross. Although if you attend a SFO function it would be a matter of courtesy to either take it off or put it under your clothes until you are in the candidate stage.

 

[Marauder]

When I was minister, we would alternate meetings—1 at the church, and 1 at a soup kitchen serving the poor. Regional didn’t like that idea, even though our soup kitchen “meetings” were attended at nearly double the number of people that came to regular meetings.

I can see where regional would have a problem with this. They wouldn’t have any problem at all if you went to a soup kitchen every month. The problem is calling it one of your official fraternity meetings. Yes St. Francis wanted people to serve the poor but not at the expense of community time.

 

[Kevin812]

Well, I didn’t think they were tunics because they don’t close, but then, they have hoods and so I don’t know what else to call them. I assume they are only worn at meetings:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hXEEG-i2k1k/Tud804Y1FmI/AAAAAAAAAUc/p80gGur76wA/s1600/bluescapulars.JPG

(the picture and cite can be found here: marymediatrix.com/religious-life/third-order-of-the-immaculate

In regards to the picture… I believe you have discovered the Franciscan Third Order of the Immaculate and not SFO.

They are not a part of SFO and fit in the Franciscan family through the Franciscans of the Immaculate.

The Third Order of the Immaculate, strictly speaking is neither an “Order” nor of the “Third” Order.

Plug: The handful that I know and have met have all been very wonderful, kind, and most worthy of being a Franciscan.

 

[JReducation]

Well, I didn’t think they were tunics because they don’t close, but then, they have hoods and so I don’t know what else to call them. I assume they are only worn at meetings:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hXEEG-i2k1k/Tud804Y1FmI/AAAAAAAAAUc/p80gGur76wA/s1600/bluescapulars.JPG

I’ll be back with a real response in a bit… Thanks for bringing up all the stuff I wanted to talk about, BTW.

These are SFO. The Secular Franciscans that are related to the Franciscans of the Immaculate do have permission to wear the blue scapular. That is not the norm for the entire SFO.

Even though it was my idea , I think so, too.

I really wish sometimes that there were other Franciscan third orders. There is the BSP (Brothers and Sisters of Penance), that follows the first rule…

You can’t have multiple Franciscan Third Orders. Francis founded only one Order of Penance. Today, there are two arms of the Order of Penance, the Regulars (TOR) and the Secular (SFO). An order is a very difficult thing to found. In fact, the Church stopped the foundation of new orders after the founding of the Jesuits. Every community that followed was a congregation, secular institute, society of apostolic life, or a clerical society. Today we classify them under public associations of the faithful and private associations of the faithful.

Also, it must be understood that when the Holy See entrusts the SFO to the moderation and guidance of the four major obediences, it does not mean that they are part of those communities or that those friars govern the SFO. It means that those friars have a duty to provide the SFO with Spiritual Assistants, when they need them. They also serve as a resource for the SFO and are often the ambassadors between the SFO and the hierarchy, though this role seems to be decreasing as the SFO leadership is doing more of this kind of work.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :chrstimastree1:

 

[Marauder]

So Francis has his own way of living the Gospel, and to pursue a Franciscan spirituality, it seems to my limited understanding, is to embrace the elements of Francis’ charism. So, for instance, that would not include Scripture scholarship, but would include eschewing excess. Not that there are not Scripture scholars amongst Franciscans, of course, thinking of Saint Anthony, but that’s not a “Franciscan” ideal as much as trait of a specific Franciscan.

The problem is I think you are falling into a common mistake that many people outside of the Catholic Franciscan Orders make. They take a specific image of St. Francis and follow it. That image is usually tempered on what THEY think St. Francis was really like.

Many think that St. Francis was the equivalent of an eco-nut valuing the environment above all else. That is far from the truth. Others think that St. Francis’ main purpose was to reform the Church above all else, ignoring what anyone else thought. That is far from the truth.

In humility St. Francis would never tell anyone to follow him in the exact same manner he did. At times he would tell his followers to stop following his eating patterns and other manners because they were getting in the way of the prayer life. He actually broke one of his fasts and ate with his friars because he saw this happening.

St. Francis recognized that there were different ways of following him and his Order. That is why several Rules exist. There is the Rule for the 1st Order, the 2nd Order, the 3rd Order and the hermits. All are different ways of following him. All involving different methods. Is following him as a 2nd Order Poor Clare as a contemplative any worse then following him as a 1st Order friar? NO. They are just different ways.

St. Francis didn’t have a problem with “Scriptural Scholarship” he had a problem with people forgetting aspects of humility and poverty in the pursuit of scholarship. He at first didn’t want St. Anthony to become a friar because he didn’t want separate classes of friars. He didn’t want the brothers to become servant of the priests or anything like that. He didn’t want the scholars to suffer from pride. One of the strengths of Franciscanism is that is so diverse. There are many ways to follow the Franciscan charism. All the time you get people asking if you can be x [contemplative, pray the scapular, pray the rosary vs. the Franciscan crown, etc.] and still be a Franciscan and as long as it is approved by the Church as a whole the answer is almost always yes. This isn’t the always the case with other groups.

It isn’t that a single thing is different from the rest, it is that certain things are emphasized over others. If that wasn’t true, there would be no Orders or need to discern amongst them. I carefully chose the name of the thread. It’s Francis I want to follow.

The problem is making sure what you are following is really St. Francis or just your own impression of St. Francis tempered with your own wants. Many of the non-denominational “Franciscan” groups suffer from this.

 

[Kevin812]

These are SFO. The Secular Franciscans that are related to the Franciscans of the Immaculate do have permission to wear the blue scapular. That is not the norm for the entire SFO. :

We must have been writting at the same time .

To clarify the above quote - I was under the impression that the were NOT SFO in membership???

Their Canonical standing is as a Public Association of the Faithful

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

You can’t have multiple Franciscan Third Orders. :

Brother, I mean this response in complete respect. You know, I believe, how much I value you.

That’s the way it is now. 2 things:

1. In Italy, at least, Third Order members were attached to specific Franciscan charisms. There were Conventual Third Orders, and Capuchin ones, etc. At least this is how it’s been explained to me.
2. Why can’t there? There are multiple orders of Franciscan religious. Why can’t the laity have the option of choosing which branch of the family best fits them?

Again, if this comes across as “in your face” in any way, I truly apologize. Such is absolutely not my intention.

 

[Marauder]

Brother, I mean this response in complete respect. You know, I believe, how much I value you.

That’s the way it is now. 2 things:

1. In Italy, at least, Third Order members were attached to specific Franciscan charisms. There were Conventual Third Orders, and Capuchin ones, etc. At least this is how it’s been explained to me.
2. Why can’t there? There are multiple orders of Franciscan religious. Why can’t the laity have the option of choosing which branch of the family best fits them?

Again, if this comes across as “in your face” in any way, I truly apologize. Such is absolutely not my intention.

Brother JR is always much better at explaining this better then me, but in reality you only have two 3rd Order Franciscan Order. Third Order Regular or Third Order Secular (now known as SFO or OFS internationally.) All the groups you are probably thinking of as “Orders” are branches of either using either the original Third Order Rule or the new Secular Rule as their official Rule and maybe also using the Rule of the 1st Order. The differences come in in the adoption of their constitutions and such. Of course there can be SFO fraternities that have a more Capuchin “feel” to them, just like my fraternity probably has a Conventual “feel” to it since we meet in a Conventual friary.

If you want to be in a Franciscan Order and not be a vowed religious the only option of being in an Order that isn’t “controlled” by someone else is the SFO or SFO related group with a different name. It is officially its own order with its own rule. In order to be a lay person in any of the other groups you are a tertiary, lay, helper, or some other word that each of the respective groups refers to its lay people.

I am sure I am probably messing up some of the terminology, Brother JR is better at getting it exactly right.

 

[Julia_Mae]

(the picture and cite can be found here: marymediatrix.com/religious-life/third-order-of-the-immaculate

In regards to the picture… I believe you have discovered the Franciscan Third Order of the Immaculate and not SFO.

They are not a part of SFO and fit in the Franciscan family through the Franciscans of the Immaculate.

The Third Order of the Immaculate, strictly speaking is neither an “Order” nor of the “Third” Order.

Plug: The handful that I know and have met have all been very wonderful, kind, and most worthy of being a Franciscan.

Thanks for the information, I got to the page through a “Secular Franciscan” link. I never thought they weren’t lovely people, I just would rather, myself, skip any sort of “habit.”

 

[Julia_Mae]

An order is a very difficult thing to found. In fact, the Church stopped the foundation of new orders after the founding of the Jesuits. Every community that followed was a congregation, secular institute, society of apostolic life, or a clerical society. Today we classify them under public associations of the faithful and private associations of the faithful.

I had read this in one place also, but I that info might be outdated. From this site:fsecommunity.org/apprentices.htm

The foundation of the Franciscan Sisters of the Eucharist in 1973 as a new, pontifically approved Order…

They are international, there are also the Franciscan Brothers (which followed the Sisters, I believe) and they have lay people associated somehow, but not SFO. This is them, they are not like Poor Clares, they are like female friars, sort of. I think.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[iloveangels]

Brother JR is always much better at explaining this better then me, but in reality you only have two 3rd Order Franciscan Order. Third Order Regular or Third Order Secular (now known as SFO or OFS internationally.) All the groups you are probably thinking of as “Orders” are branches of either using either the original Third Order Rule or the new Secular Rule as their official Rule and maybe also using the Rule of the 1st Order. The differences come in in the adoption of their constitutions and such. Of course there can be SFO fraternities that have a more Capuchin “feel” to them, just like my fraternity probably has a Conventual “feel” to it since we meet in a Conventual friary.

If you want to be in a Franciscan Order and not be a vowed religious the only option of being in an Order that isn’t “controlled” by someone else is the SFO or SFO related group with a different name. It is officially its own order with its own rule. In order to be a lay person in any of the other groups you are a tertiary, lay, helper, or some other word that each of the respective groups refers to its lay people.

I am sure I am probably messing up some of the terminology, Brother JR is better at getting it exactly right.

The Franciscan Family has a very complicated structure compared to the other major orders.

I) The first order is friars, OFMs, Capuchin and Conventual–named for characteristics in their history. Both of these are parts of the1st order male branch of the Order, as I understand it. The Capuchins started out as a reform branch.

II) The second order is women, contemplative cloistered religious (nuns) called Poor Clares. You will almost never see one in public. This order was reformed in the 15th century so some Poor Clares are Colettine Poor Clares, the reform branch, and some are not. But they’re all nuns.

III) The third order is where it gets interesting. As I understand it, the third order was founded by St. Francis himself, as were the other orders. This 3rd order was once all non-cloistered individuals, mostly not ordained.

Some of these individuals in the 3rd order decided to live together in houses and obey as groups–this made them 3rd order regular (regular meaning not secular, not individual members). This is still going on to this day and many of the groups you see who follow the 3rd order rule but have different constitutions and practices than the SFO are in this category. The TOR and many women’s groups of Franciscan sisters are in this category. They’re third order, and part of the Franciscan order proper, but they live in convents and generally wear some kind of identifying garb, though they may not wear a full habit.

The SFO is still those who follow the 3rd order rule (now the 1978 version) but live as individuals or with their families. The secular SFO has never “split” like the 1st order and there is a lot of pressure to keep it so. All the organizational diversity in the 3rd order has always appeared around whether the members live in strict community or on their own. This is the SFO operating under CIOFS and NAFRA, the one conventionally referred to when we talk about the Secular Franciscans.

And then there are other groups that call themselves Franciscans that may use an older rule or something to identify themselves as Franciscans but they are not part of the Franciscan order proper. They are public associations of the faithful or secular institutes. BSP and the Confraternity of Penitents are examples of this type of group.

Then there are many groups, both male & female, which are really not part of the order proper, but rather are congregations of sisters or friars, with a Franciscan-like flavor. These often get confused with the Franciscan order proper. However, instead of being organized around a way of life, they’re organized around a characteristic apostolate, like teaching or medical work OR they’re organized around a particular facet of devotion, like the BVM. They may have hybrid rules, having some properties of the Franciscans and some properties of another way of life. This gets really confusing.

When talking about the Franciscans, you can describe a group by the place it holds in the 1st/2nd/3rd order structure, or outside it. You can describe a group by whether it’s regular (in a shared house) or not. You can describe it by whether it’s of diocesan right or pontifical right. You can describe it by what rule it uses or what constitutions it’s using. This is why it’s so complicated to figure out where each group belongs in the whole scheme of things. Complete descriptions are hard to come by when looking these organizations over too.

I’m not sure what might happen if a group of SFOs split off, using the same rule but different constitutions, similar to what happened with the Conventuals and the Capuchins, a sort of reform group. My feeling is that it wouldn’t be tolerated, but I’m not sure why that would be the case specifically.

The SFO has been employed through various eras of history to galvanize groups of the faithful around various types of religious practice, etc. The history is interesting. At times, it’s been treated as more of a pious group or sodality even at fairly high levels in the church, and then at other times it’s been understood as being more independent. It’s being treated independently now.

I’m not honestly sure where the Franciscan Friars & Sisters of the Immaculate fit into this picture, whether they are 3rd order regular groups or congregations with a Franciscan flavor and a modern founder. I believe the blue-garbed tertieries belong to them, as associates. I don’t think they’re part of the Order proper in any way but I could be wrong.

 

[Marauder]

They are international, there are also the Franciscan Brothers (which followed the Sisters, I believe) and they have lay people associated somehow, but not SFO. This is them, they are not like Poor Clares, they are like female friars, sort of. I think.

I am pretty sure that group would probably be a branch of the Third Order Regular or Secular. You can be a vowed community of SFO living together (which was how TOR started out in the first place). Most likely they are using the term Order in that format, not that they are a separate and distinct Order. Odds are if you see a Franciscan “nun” they are really a Third Order sister. Odds of seeing a Poor Clare are pretty low since most are contemplative, and Brother JR can correct me if I am wrong, but the only members of the 2nd Order are the Poor Clares (including other derivations of the same name.)

Not that being in 2nd vs. 3rd means anything lower or anything like that just the Order in which the Orders were founded and the rule that is followed.

It is pretty confusing understanding all the exact details of this stuff. Very few people get into understanding the differences.

 

[iloveangels]

I had read this in one place also, but I that info might be outdated. From this site:fsecommunity.org/apprentices.htm

They are international, there are also the Franciscan Brothers (which followed the Sisters, I believe) and they have lay people associated somehow, but not SFO. This is them, they are not like Poor Clares, they are like female friars, sort of. I think.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-W-r6twWpj...AAAUk/NdxhYrfnQJQ/s1600/franciscansisters.JPG

They’re an offshoot of the Franciscan Sisters of Adoration in Wisconsin. The laypeople with them will be associates.