Finding Saint Francis

[Julia_Mae]

The problem is I think you are falling into a common mistake that many people outside of the Catholic Franciscan Orders make. They take a specific image of St. Francis and follow it. That image is usually tempered on what THEY think St. Francis was really like.

Thank you for taking the time to post all of this. I have read all of Francis extant writings, including his Rules and fragments of rules and the Life of Saint Francis by Fr. Chalippe. (I’m just starting.) I agree with everything you said. Well, except about Francis not wanting Saint Anthony to be a friar, as it was fait accompli before they met.

However, I was responding to what I perceived as the idea that following Francis was some simple intent to follow the Gospels. Franciscan spirituality is something, something not the same as other charisms. As I said, if that were not true, there’d be nothing to discern.

So, very seriously, my intent was always ITT to discuss just what that is, so I can learn and also so others looking for an Order to attach to will have a place with lots of info. I think it would be cool to have other thread for Dominicans and so forth. As you obviously have vastly more information than I have and have spent so much time discerning and praying and living this, I’d be very grateful if you’d say what you think Franciscan spirituality/charism comprises.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I had read this in one place also, but I that info might be outdated. From this site:fsecommunity.org/apprentices.htm

They are international, there are also the Franciscan Brothers (which followed the Sisters, I believe) and they have lay people associated somehow, but not SFO. This is them, they are not like Poor Clares, they are like female friars, sort of. I think.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-W-r6twWpj...AAAUk/NdxhYrfnQJQ/s1600/franciscansisters.JPG

Do they accept “long distance” “SFO’s” (as the Third Order used to)? Do you have a link to them, please?

 

[iloveangels]

Thank you for taking the time to post all of this. I have read all of Francis extant writings, including his Rules and fragments of rules and the Life of Saint Francis by Fr. Chalippe. (I’m just starting.) I agree with everything you said. Well, except about Francis not wanting Saint Anthony to be a friar, as it was fait accompli before they met.

However, I was responding to what I perceived as the idea that following Francis was some simple intent to follow the Gospels. Franciscan spirituality is something, something not the same as other charisms. As I said, if that were not true, there’d be nothing to discern.

So, very seriously, my intent was always ITT to discuss just what that is, so I can learn and also so others looking for an Order to attach to will have a place with lots of info. I think it would be cool to have other thread for Dominicans and so forth. As you obviously have vastly more information than I have and have spent so much time discerning and praying and living this, I’d be very grateful if you’d say what you think Franciscan spirituality/charism comprises.

BR JR has some very good posts on specifically this topic. He’s been a Franciscan friar for a long time and has a lot of information and I’d search for those posts, if I were you. I learned a lot from them.

The order itself, all 3 branches, holds Franciscan community to be very important, and this is missing from some of the non-order groups. And in general, those following the approximately 6 major ancient rules of the church follow a way of life rather than a specific apostolate or method. Whereas the later foundations have more emphasis on particular apostolates that are characteristic features of their spirituality.

The other thing is that the approximately 6 major ancient rules have illustrious founders whose persons are revered as almost voices of God for their orders. This is usually absent in later foundations as well. Franciscans talk about Francis a lot; Dominicans talk about Dominic a lot, etc, because he was a legitimate guide to what the Church taught for them–a way of living out the Gospel authentically.

Sometime in the early part of the 2nd millenium (1200AD etc), the church stopped recognizing these great rules, simply because the number of great interpretations of the Gospel (Benedictine, Augustinian, Franciscan, etc) was exhausted. That is still the case. All others are derivatives.

 

[Marauder]

Well, except about Francis not wanting Saint Anthony to be a friar, as it was fait accompli before they met.

When I said he didn’t want Saint Anthony to be a friar, it would clearer to say he didn’t want ANY priest to be a friar. Saint Anthony had to apply for a special dispensation from St. Francis to become a friar and to preach. This was all due to the things I mentioned before about St. Francis being nervous about having priests in the Order. For a long time St. Francis would totally ignore St. Anthony and even purposely face the other way when St. Anthony was present. He did this not as a “dis” or anything like that he did it to “teach” St. Anthony humility.

As you obviously have vastly more information than I have and have spent so much time discerning and praying and living this, I’d be very grateful if you’d say what you think Franciscan spirituality/charism comprises.

There are many more learned people out there then me. I have read a lot in my discernment process before joining SFO and a lot more since. I never profess to be an expert on it. Brother JR has had to correct some of my understandings at times. I learn a lot from him many times when I come on here. As for the second part I will try to answer that tomorrow, my day online has come to an end and I have to go home to my wife.

 

[Julia_Mae]

They’re an offshoot of the Franciscan Sisters of Adoration in Wisconsin. The laypeople with them will be associates.

Yes, that’s what they are called. I just don’t know what they do or if/how they are organized. You are correct about Wisconsin. However, they do seem to be an “order” not a branch of something else. I have no idea how to define “order.”

We were founded as the Franciscan Sisters of the Eucharist in 1973 by a decree of the Vatican’s Sacred Congregation for Religious.

Our founding was in response to the call of Vatican II for religious communities to renew religious life. The fifty five original founding Sisters were members of the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration in La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA and had participated in a program of renewal within that congregation. It was discerned by the Sacred Congregation for Religious that the new expression of religious life emerging from this program of renewal would grow more fully if it were established as a separate congregation in its own right. As a result, on December 2, 1973, the First Sunday of Advent, the Franciscan Sisters of the Eucharist came into being as a Pontifical Community. The founding years drew upon the energy, drive and commitment of the young Community to form centers of community life that expressed the vision which impelled the Sisters to move into this new venture, and to initiate various forms of apostolate to meet the needs of people.

The vision and Spirit-directed leadership of our foundresses, Mother Rosemae Pender and Mother Shaun Vergauwen (pictured above), continued to inspire the community as they served as Mother General and Vicar General, respectively, from the beginning until 2005, at which time, Mother Shaun Vergauwen was elected Mother General and Mother Miriam Seiferman was elected Vicar General.

A new era of founding was inaugurated in December 2002 with the establishment by the Archdiocese of Hartford of the Franciscan Brothers of the Eucharist as a Public Association of the Faithful with the intention of being aggregated to the Franciscan Sisters of the Eucharist as the men’s branch of the order.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Do they accept “long distance” “SFO’s” (as the Third Order used to)? Do you have a link to them, please?

Here’s a link to the main site. They are sisters, not lay people. But check the locations tab, they seem to be spreading. fsecommunity.org/index.htm They even have an Assisi location, I think.

The Confraternity of Penitents accepts “long distance” but I am not recommending them, just saying. penitents.org/

 

[iloveangels]

Do they accept “long distance” “SFO’s” (as the Third Order used to)? Do you have a link to them, please?

They won’t be SFOs. They’ll be something else. You’d have to contact them to see if they accept associates that are not local to them, and see what their formation would be like.

 

[Julia_Mae]

There are many more learned people out there then me. I have read a lot in my discernment process before joining SFO and a lot more since. I never profess to be an expert on it. Brother JR has had to correct some of my understandings at times. I learn a lot from him many times when I come on here. .

Well, I wasn’t looking for a lecture of facts. I think your great value here in this thread is that you are an SFO. Br JR., whatever he knows and may be, is not SFO and SFO is what I am discerning. It’s your personal take on Franciscan spirituality I am interested in. IOW, why Francis and not someone else?

After all, one of the things Br JR has said over and over is that the SFO is an independent entity. He’s OFM. I hope as SFO you might find time to share. In this case, you are most qualified to speak to those things I am most interested in.

 

[Julia_Mae]

BR JR has some very good posts on specifically this topic. .

Yes, he does. In this case, though, searching his posts kind of defeats the purpose of having a Francis thread in the Vocations forum for people looking to discern what path to follow. I am hoping, of course, he’ll bless the thread with his insight and knowledge.

 

[iloveangels]

Well, I wasn’t looking for a lecture of facts. I think your great value here in this thread is that you are an SFO. Br JR., whatever he knows and may be, is not SFO and SFO is what I am discerning. It’s your personal take on Franciscan spirituality I am interested in. IOW, why Francis and not someone else?

After all, one of the things Br JR has said over and over is that the SFO is an independent entity. He’s OFM. I hope as SFO you might find time to share. In this case, you are most qualified to speak to those things I am most interested in.

Julia Mae,

The best thing to do when you’re discerning is to go and visit the orders and groups that are near you. You can find them using the internet. This is far more important than any description I can give you. They can show you their formation courses and you can get a bit of a flavor of what they’re about by attending a few of their meetings. It’s really difficult to discern a good fit before you go see some groups locally.

Also an openness to a variety of charisms is good when you’re first discerning. There are Dominicans, Carmelites, Servites and others from the old orders. Then also the smaller groups like the FSE you have posted here.

Call them up or go and visit them. I’m sure they will be glad to help you with details.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Julia Mae,

The best thing to do when you’re discerning is to go and visit the orders and groups that are near you. .

Thanks. No is near me right now. But will be in a few months. Right now I wanted to explore Saint Francis in a thread in the Vocation forum on CAF, not solely for my own benefit. I wasn’t looking so much for discernment advice, as for how Franciscan spirituality is being understood and lived out in this time.

I’m sorry if I should know this but, are you SFO? Perhaps you’ll share.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

**They won’t be SFOs. ** They’ll be something else. You’d have to contact them to see if they accept associates that are not local to them, and see what their formation would be like.

I know. That’s why I put it in quotes

 

[TrueLight]

Also an openness to a variety of charisms is good when you’re first discerning. There are Dominicans, Carmelites, Servites and others from the old orders. Then also the smaller groups like the FSE you have posted here.

Call them up or go and visit them. I’m sure they will be glad to help you with details.

Thank you for saying this. One would have me think I am wrong for wanting to visit different groups.

 

[jwinch2]

Well, I wasn’t looking for a lecture of facts. I think your great value here in this thread is that you are an SFO. Br JR., whatever he knows and may be, is not SFO and SFO is what I am discerning. It’s your personal take on Franciscan spirituality I am interested in. IOW, why Francis and not someone else?

After all, one of the things Br JR has said over and over is that the SFO is an independent entity. He’s OFM. I hope as SFO you might find time to share. In this case, you are most qualified to speak to those things I am most interested in.

In case you were unaware, Brother JR has served as a spiritual adviser for the SFO in the past so he is quite qualified to speak about them. I don’t blame you for wishing to get the insight of someone who is in the SFO, but I wouldn’t discount other information either.

Peace,

 

[Julia_Mae]

In case you were unaware, Brother JR has served as a spiritual adviser for the SFO in the past so he is quite qualified to speak about them. I don’t blame you for wishing to get the insight of someone who is in the SFO, but I wouldn’t discount other information either.

Peace,

Neither would I.

 

[Marauder]

After all, one of the things Br JR has said over and over is that the SFO is an independent entity. He’s OFM. I hope as SFO you might find time to share. In this case, you are most qualified to speak to those things I am most interested in.

Actually Brother JR isn’t OFM he is OSF and like others have said he has been a spiritual adviser to SFO. He knows more about the details of SFO then many people within SFO and he definitely knows more about Franciscan history and inner workings then me. But it is very fair to ask how an average member of SFO views things.

It is very hard for me to put down exactly how I view Franciscan spirituality and the charism because my specific view changes with time. I have a feeling you aren’t looking for the book definition from me.

The obvious definition is to live the Gospel life in the manner of St. Francis As you are no doubt seeing it is a very broad topic. The most basic form is following the 3 evangelic counsels as they relate to your state in life. Poverty, Obedience, and Chastity. I figure you don’t need a description of chastity since that one is pretty obvious.

Obedience to a Franciscan has multiple layers. The first layer involves obedience to the Church. Meaning that you obey God church and follow the teachings as laid out by the Pope. This also involves making sure you actually know the authentic teachings of the Church and not just an interpretation of those teachings or the secular world’s view of those teachings. The second layer of obedience is to the Order and by extension your minister. As a member of SFO this obedience really only applies to SFO meetings and functions, but if you are a vowed religious this applies to all aspects of your life where if the minister orders it your only allowed question to yourself is does this order involve sin, if not then you do it.

Poverty also depends on vowed religious vs. secular because a member of SFO has obligations outside of the Order. I have taken the promises, but my family hasn’t. Diocesan priests take the promises but they can’t obligate their parish, diocese, etc. It involves me personally not being attached to worldly goods or money and using as much as possible those resources to help others. But I cannot do this at the expense of my family. I can make sure we live frugally and evaluate any purchase, charity, etc. as a Franciscan, but I have to make sure I can support my family. A vowed Franciscan would give up everything he owned to the extent of the regulations of that particular group.

That is the groundwork to the spirituality, the rest is harder to put into words. Franciscan spirituality involves living the Gospel as Jesus lived it and trying to emulate Francis in ways that your state in life allows and in ways your talents support. To have a love of Mary in the form of Lady Poverty. To also embrace aspects of St. Clare in seeing Jesus in the face of everyone including yourself. To do this all with great humility above all else. Methods to do this vary person to person. Some people may embrace the contemplative nature of Clare, some may embrace the praise and worship of St. Francis. Some may embrace the humble scholarly pursuit of St. Anthony and any combination of the above. It also involves continuous conversion or penance. Continually changing your life to be closer and closer to that of the life of Christ. Changing every aspect of your life to be in accord with Christ’s teachings. Using obvious methods like frequent reception of the Eucharist and frequent reception of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. But also participating in other aspects of the Liturgy of the Church and having a fully developed prayer life. Also making sure this life is actually proceeding the right way and not going off on tangents is important so attending events with other Franciscans is very important to give that extra boost and shot to go back into the “real world”.

Like I said, it is hard to put all of this into words. I am not an English major or a theologian, so the correct words do not always come to me. Please feel free to ask specific questions.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Like I said, it is hard to put all of this into words. I am not an English major or a theologian, so the correct words do not always come to me. Please feel free to ask specific questions.

I think this is excellent, thanks so much for taking the time to write it.

Actually Brother JR isn’t OFM he is OSF

Isn’t that interesting, I just never noted the difference. Oh well, all these initials are new to me. But, I thought the OSF was Anglican? (Like I said, all new to me.)

Anyway, it was good to read how you make the distinctions in terms of your life and being a lay person and honor that your family members didn’t make the commitment with you.

Also making sure this life is actually proceeding the right way and not going off on tangents is important so attending events with other Franciscans is very important to give that extra boost and shot to go back into the “real world”.

I’m sure all groups have their own individual character, but at these meetings, are they structured so you spend some time with Francis’ teachings? I find myself becoming more and more fascinated by the 28 Admonitions. Today I was thinking of them in terms of forum posting:

Chapter XXI. On the inane and loquacious religious

Blessed (is) the servant who, when he speaks, does not manifest all his own (thoughts) in view of (some) wage and is not swift to speak (cf. Prov. 29:20) but wisely provides what he ought to speak and answer. · Woe to that religious who does not retain in his heart (Lk 2:19.51)the good things, which the Lord shows him, and does not show them to others through work, but who in view of (some) wage desires rather to show them to men with words. · He himself receives “his wage” and (his) hearers bring back little fruit.

Uh-oh. I might be down to one post a day here, soon.

Maybe a sentence.

Possibly only a smilie

:tiphat:

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I really enjoy the Admonitions.

I wish I could find a cheap, pocket sized, large type copy…

 

[Marauder]

I’m sure all groups have their own individual character, but at these meetings, are they structured so you spend some time with Francis’ teachings? I find myself becoming more and more fascinated by the 28 Admonitions. Today I was thinking of them in terms of forum posting:

The structure of the meetings will vary fraternity by fraternity and even meeting by meeting. My fraternity’s meeting structure just changed because we moved from a weeknight to a weekend day.

Our meeting starts with Mass, we all attend the 12:00 Mass held by the OFM Conventual friars. It is also a healing Mass. Anyone that needs the healing stays for that, others proceed to the friary dinning room for lunch. After everyone has lunch and time to socialize, we head to the classroom for the business meeting where any visitors are introduced, announcements are made and any fraternity business is dealt with. After that we go into ongoing formation. That portion of the meeting varies month by month, it can be a talk by a guest, reflection on portions of the Rule, a talk by a member on an outreach, whatever the council comes up with. Most talks involves something related to Franciscan Spirituality. There can either be lectures or small group breakouts or whatever is needed. The meeting may end with Evening Prayer or some other final prayer.

The format is always up for change, like when there are professions, special Masses for other reasons (i.e. every November we have a special Mass for all the deceased Franciscans from our fraternity and the OFM Conv friary.)

When we met on weekdays the format was:

1. opening prayer of some type (Mass, Evening Prayer, rosary, etc.)
2. business meeting
3. ongoing formation
4. social time

Other then a prescribed opening and closing prayer for the business meeting the format of the meetings is up to the particular fraternity. SFO does require that there be some social time to:

1. allow members to discuss their calling with each other and any issues they may be having in the “real” world.
2. greet visitors
3. help out people in initial formation

This makes it sound kind of dry, but it is just the framework. How you fill in the framework is what makes the meetings interesting, fulfilling, spiritual, etc.

 

[Julia_Mae]

This makes it sound kind of dry, but it is just the framework. How you fill in the framework is what makes the meetings interesting, fulfilling, spiritual, etc.

I think you made it sound wonderful. Like exactly a place I’d like to be.