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katolik
Guest
Chris in Mich:
I hope this person isn’t lieing. Did these boys go to Catholic schools or public schools?
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Brendan
Guest
This is OT, but this week’s Michigan Catholic has a really cool article on pg. 6 about conscience vs. objective Truth.
It’s written by my Philisophy Professor at Sacred Heart!
It’s written by my Philisophy Professor at Sacred Heart!
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Chris_in_Mich
Guest
The server I talked to is a seminarian with the FSSP, I’m confident what he said was not a lie.
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Agomemnon
Guest
Unless the Archbihop has finally admitted he’s in schism I do not see where he has the authority (yes even as a bishop he has limitation) as to incense, vestments and confession. The priest is ordained as alter-christos and has the rights of a priest. The only reason I can see for limiting where the altar boys come from is to make sure their well trained. If he UD HS as traditional liturgies there as well it would make even more sense.
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Brendan
Guest
These are actually all privileges of the Diocesean Ordinary. Especially in the area of Confessions. The Absolution of Sin was granted to the Apostles and thus their heirs, the bishops.
The Bishops delegate this authority to the priests, but it is delegated authority only. A priest, for example, may only hear confession within his own diocese (except in cases if emergency - in which case the Bishop of Rome has extended authority is such circumstances) (Check out Canon 966 )
The regulation of optional parts of the liturgy also belong to the Ordinary. This includes the use of incense not specifically required by the rubrics.
The same is true for vesture.
As far as UofD High School, could it be because they have a Latin program? How many other nearby High Schools have an active Latin program?
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Chris_in_Mich
Guest
I was under the impression that incense at a high mass and vesture are specifically required by the rubics of the 1962 missal. Would this also be true of the linen for the altar rail or the asperges? both of which are left out at the indult.
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katolik
Guest
Chris in Mich:
Incense is only allowed at High Masses. Incense in the USA can be used during Sung Masses becuase the USA has an indult for this.
Chris, at the first Mass[a sung Mass] there was an asperges ceremony, while at the second Mass[Low Mass] there was no asperges because that isn’t in the rubrics for Mass. Finally, there probably wasn’t an altar rail linen probably becuase linen is expensive and we are just starting up now.
Chris:
Incense is only allowed at High Masses. Incense in the USA can be used during Sung Masses becuase the USA has an indult for this.
Chris, at the first Mass[a sung Mass] there was an asperges ceremony, while at the second Mass[Low Mass] there was no asperges because that isn’t in the rubrics for Mass. Finally, there probably wasn’t an altar rail linen probably becuase linen is expensive and we are just starting up now.
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AlexB
Guest
Hello all –
Just noticed this discussion and felt it appropriate to fill in some details. I am a member of the committee that has been organizing the St. Josaphat Tridentine Mass.
First of all, both Masses so far have been neither High Masses nor Low Masses. Both have been Missa Cantatas, which is a sung Mass celebrated by one priest. The term High Mass within the Tridentine definition refers to a more solemn ceremony with Deacon and Subdeacon. A Missa Cantata is a sung Mass celebrated by one priest alone. It is rubrically closer to a Low Mass than to a High Mass. The Asperges is done at the discretion of the celebrant. We did have an Asperges the first week. Incense is optional, however the Archdiocese has restricted the number of servers we can use in the Mass so that it is not possible to use incense at this time. For those of you who are interested, you can read more about the distinctions in the book considered the reference for Tridentine rubrics, Fr. Adrian Fortescue’s “Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described”.
We are in the process of refurbishing the altar rail and hope to have a communion cloth for it shortly.
The list of celebrants for the Mass has been determined by the Archdiocese. Many voices are striving to be heard, both pro and con TLM, and the officials are simply trying to start off with celebrants who are good team players. I agree with previous posters, we are fortunate that Fr. Kasza is among them. He is also serving as the TLM coordinator, which is great considering the many demands on his time.
As for the first Masses being a bit “clumsy”, please understand that we are just getting started. It is unrealistic to expect perfection at this early stage. Rest assured that everyone involved is trying to improve every week, within the comfort zone of each individual celebrant. There are a tremendous amount of details to be worked out. Let’s focus on the positive and try to get a solid community going.
The music program is off to a good start. We need more choir members, though. Please see music director Wassim Sarweh if you would like to sing.
Parking was a challenge the first week, but we were fine the second week. If the the congregation grows and warrants it, we have an arrangement to lease nearby parking space from Wayne State University.
You can see a photo of the St. Josaphat TLM plus more information about the Mass at:
detroitlatinmass.org
The original Page 1 story in the Detroit Free Press can be viewed as originally printed here:
freep.com/pdf/2004/08/03/frontpdf_20040803.pdf
Finally, let me put in a good word for St. Josaphat Administrator Fr. Mark Borkowski. He has put in a tremendous amount of time and effort helping to arrange this Mass and deserves our thanks and prayers.
Come on down and help make this Mass a success!
Alex
Just noticed this discussion and felt it appropriate to fill in some details. I am a member of the committee that has been organizing the St. Josaphat Tridentine Mass.
First of all, both Masses so far have been neither High Masses nor Low Masses. Both have been Missa Cantatas, which is a sung Mass celebrated by one priest. The term High Mass within the Tridentine definition refers to a more solemn ceremony with Deacon and Subdeacon. A Missa Cantata is a sung Mass celebrated by one priest alone. It is rubrically closer to a Low Mass than to a High Mass. The Asperges is done at the discretion of the celebrant. We did have an Asperges the first week. Incense is optional, however the Archdiocese has restricted the number of servers we can use in the Mass so that it is not possible to use incense at this time. For those of you who are interested, you can read more about the distinctions in the book considered the reference for Tridentine rubrics, Fr. Adrian Fortescue’s “Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described”.
We are in the process of refurbishing the altar rail and hope to have a communion cloth for it shortly.
The list of celebrants for the Mass has been determined by the Archdiocese. Many voices are striving to be heard, both pro and con TLM, and the officials are simply trying to start off with celebrants who are good team players. I agree with previous posters, we are fortunate that Fr. Kasza is among them. He is also serving as the TLM coordinator, which is great considering the many demands on his time.
As for the first Masses being a bit “clumsy”, please understand that we are just getting started. It is unrealistic to expect perfection at this early stage. Rest assured that everyone involved is trying to improve every week, within the comfort zone of each individual celebrant. There are a tremendous amount of details to be worked out. Let’s focus on the positive and try to get a solid community going.
The music program is off to a good start. We need more choir members, though. Please see music director Wassim Sarweh if you would like to sing.
Parking was a challenge the first week, but we were fine the second week. If the the congregation grows and warrants it, we have an arrangement to lease nearby parking space from Wayne State University.
You can see a photo of the St. Josaphat TLM plus more information about the Mass at:
detroitlatinmass.org
The original Page 1 story in the Detroit Free Press can be viewed as originally printed here:
freep.com/pdf/2004/08/03/frontpdf_20040803.pdf
Finally, let me put in a good word for St. Josaphat Administrator Fr. Mark Borkowski. He has put in a tremendous amount of time and effort helping to arrange this Mass and deserves our thanks and prayers.
Come on down and help make this Mass a success!
Alex
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otm
Guest
Then things must have changed since prior to Vatican 2; a Low Mass had no singing; a High Mass had the various parts (e.g. the Gloria) sung; and a Solemn High Mass had a piriest, deacon and subdeacon.
{QUOTE=AlexB] however the Archdiocese has restricted the number of servers we can use in the Mass so that it is not possible to use incense at this time.
Why? We managed in funeral Masses, with three servers (one carrying the processional cross) to use incense. Are you presuming the need for a thurifer?
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Chris_in_Mich
Guest
Hi Alex, nice to hear from you, especially since I’ve had so many questions regarding the Mass.
AlexB:
I agree with what you’ve said about Fr. Borkowski, he’s been a great caretaker of three beautiful churches, and has said some very inspirational things, he is in my prayers.
Can you post the list? why are the number of servers restricted?
I agree with what you’ve said about Fr. Borkowski, he’s been a great caretaker of three beautiful churches, and has said some very inspirational things, he is in my prayers.
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kimbalika
Guest
Chris in Mich:
Have you ever been there for midnight Mass? If not, it is an awesome experience and I highly recommend it.
Kim in Livonia MI
I have been to Sweetest Heart of Mary. In fact my husband and I were married there in 1991. It is absolutely breathtaking!
Have you ever been there for midnight Mass? If not, it is an awesome experience and I highly recommend it.
Kim in Livonia MI
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paterpetri
Guest
Thank you for the information, Alex. There have been so many rumors circulating regarding this Mass that it is difficult to know the truth.
My wife, my sons, and I have attended both Indult Masses at St. Jospahat’s and, in spite of the minor gaffes, are pleased with what we have seen, and we are most grateful to the Cardinal that he has made the return of the Tridentine Rite to the Archdiocese of Detroit a reality. I would like to urge everyone to be patient with and charitable to all those who have made this Mass possible.
My wife and I would like to lend whatever support we can in building up this new community. One concern we have, however, is that our sons are preparing to make their first holy communions, and we had already enrolled one of them in the catechetical program at Assumption Grotto and do not want to pull him out after he has already started. Both of us feel an attachment to the Tridentine Mass, however, and we do not want to go to two different churches.
I would appreciate any advice/suggestions that anyone else has to offer in this regard.
My wife, my sons, and I have attended both Indult Masses at St. Jospahat’s and, in spite of the minor gaffes, are pleased with what we have seen, and we are most grateful to the Cardinal that he has made the return of the Tridentine Rite to the Archdiocese of Detroit a reality. I would like to urge everyone to be patient with and charitable to all those who have made this Mass possible.
My wife and I would like to lend whatever support we can in building up this new community. One concern we have, however, is that our sons are preparing to make their first holy communions, and we had already enrolled one of them in the catechetical program at Assumption Grotto and do not want to pull him out after he has already started. Both of us feel an attachment to the Tridentine Mass, however, and we do not want to go to two different churches.
I would appreciate any advice/suggestions that anyone else has to offer in this regard.
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Brendan
Guest
Chris in Mich:
He was an Associate at my parents parish and they have nothing but positive things to say about him.
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marcus29
Guest
seeing that there are a number of posters from the Detroit area interested in the TLM. I’ll recommend The ctngreg forum which has some of the best discussions on the TLM. Some of the priests from the FSSP post there and AlexB posts there so you can keep up with the news about the indult in Detroit.
groups.yahoo.com/group/ctngreg/
groups.yahoo.com/group/ctngreg/
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marcus29
Guest
One suggestion:
You could speak with Fr. Borkowski after mass, he may have a few ideas for you.
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katolik
Guest
Detroit Sue:
I can’t wait until the bishop says Mass… I want to see my first Pontifical Mass!!
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mkellogg
Guest
I’m not from Detroit, but I attended my first Tridentine Mass early this year, and I wanted to just throw out a couple things that concern me, for your consumption. I enjoyed the Tridentine, though I prefer the Novus Ordo.
After having attended, I now believe that what people like in the Tridentine is not so much the Mass itself, but the orthodoxy involved, the outright devotion of the congregants, and the solemnity accorded to the altar and Eucharist. These are all wonderful things, yet I see no reason why they cannot all be found in a strict version of the Novus Ordo.
My concern, and I’ve heard this same from a cardinal or two, is that we’re in danger of splitting the rite in the Church, splitting the body of Christ. We already have schismatic “traditionalists,” having more than one type of Mass said regularly seems to me to be potentially divisive, rather than unifying. As Cardinal Arinze put it, the Novus Ordo is here to stay.
I had many problems with the Tridentine. I did not feel as though I had participated actively. The constant Latin was distracting. I could not hear the priest, who was facing away and was not miked. There was no interaction with the priest, or anything else for that matter, except for communion. Communion was far better than in the N.O., I must say.
As I see it, Vatican II was addressing many of these issues, which is why so many changes were made. Those changes, properly implemented, I think would give everyone what they want. An orthodox, solemn Mass with plenty of Latin to connect us with our roots; yet REAL participation in that Mass, too.
A different perspective I hope you’ll consider.
Michael
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marcus29
Guest
Michael you have very strange concerns.
So, you think that by having an additional rite in the Church, the Body of Christ is being “split”. How do you account for the numerous eastern rites. Are eastern usages splitting the Body of Christ?
When the Roman missal was codified at Trent, St. Pius V allowed any rite over 200 years old to continue. Was St. Pius V spliting the Body of Christ?
listen to Cardinal Ratzinger:
“I was dismayed by the ban on the old missal, since such a development had never been seen in the history of liturgy. The impression was given that this was completely normal.”
Cardinal Ratzinger
Catholic News Service, August 1997
Michael, one thing to keep in mind about rites of the Chuch.
There were four “parent rites” of the liturgy by the 4th century which were fully developed. And it was from these four that all later rites were derived. (Fortescue)
So perhaps you can now put your concerns to rest.
I think the phrase “Active participation” is being misused by many. As I understand it. It does not mean predominately physical or verbal gestures, but true participation comes through the Holy Spirit by being united to the priest in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to the Father.
I would argue that the TLM is the most contemplative rite of Mass I have ever encountered. And according to the great mystics such as St. Bernard, comtemplation is the highest form of prayer.
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katolik
Guest
Michael:
I have gone to conservative NO Masses all my life before I became Traditional. To me having liturgical dancers at Mass or anyother abuses were lies. I couldn’t believe that some poeple actually did this. Now this is the problem with the NO. One priest says it like a Traditional Mass while another says it like a Pentecostal hootenanny.The Traditional Mass has unity and is the same almost everywher, while the NO is disorganized.Anyway this quote about the NO Mass lasting forever is just an opinion.
Also reiterating what I have said before… I participate more actively at a sung TLM then my former cnoservativer NO Mass. I’m not kidding. I used to fall asleep at NO Masses but at the Traditional Latin Mass I have not fallen asleep once.
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mkellogg
Guest
Hmm, not so charitable, methinks…
Well, I’ve only been to one, so I suppose I should reserve judgement a little. I’ll concede your point about multiple rites in the Church. Perhaps it’s just fine to have a TLM and an NO active in the Church at the same time. The theology is the same, right?
I don’t doubt that, I’m just inexperienced in Latin and in contemplative prayer, both. For me, not hearing the priest was distracting. Not understanding the Latin lessened my feelings of devotion as I prayed. Not interacting with the priest and the community was strange. Communion was fantastic. No singing at all really bugged me, I love traditional church music.
God Bless,
Michael
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