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Porknpie
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Logically, do you ever ask someone to pray for you? I’m not sure if this is permitted in your church or not?
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First Jehovah's witnesses to knock at my door
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
How many people understand the religion of Jehovah’s WItnesses without fully studying it? How often do people develop misunderstandings because they read a Watchtower, Awake! or other Witness publication on their own? Would you recommend they read it on their own or don’t they need guidance to prevent them from reading your material and coming to wrong conclusions?
I know you are familiar with this text regarding Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. How did the eunuch reply when Philip asked: “Do you understand what you are reading?”
He replied, “How can I, unless someone guides me?”–Acts 8:26-40.
Can one read the Hebrew Scriptures without learning about Jewish culture? Not even Witnesses read the Jewish Scriptures without consulting history to get some background. And why do this? Because one cannot understand the Scriptures of the Jews in a vacuum.
It is the same with the Christian Greek Scriptures. The fact that you admit to not ever hearing about the Shepherd of Hermas shows you are reading the Scriptures without sufficient background. It only seems that the teachings of the Church contradict Scripture because unlike the Ethiopian eunuch you neither want to be guided by the Church that produced it nor accept its explanations.
If you read the Scriptures outside of the tradition that developed it and outside of the Church that canonized it, you are sure to get things backward. If you are really interested in learning the facts, you need to get off this forum and meet one of us face-to-face and learn Catholicism directly from us in our Church. Just as one does not get the truth of Jehovah’s Witnesses from Baptists or Mormons, you will never know the truth about how the Catholic Church and the Bible fit perfectly together from Watchtower sources or the Governing Body. If one wants to taste figs, they do not go to grape vines or apple trees. To know the truth about Catholicism you need to go to its source, personally.
Can a house stand without support or a foundation? No. But even the Scriptures at 1 Timothy 3:15 attest that the “pillar and foundation of the truth” is “the Church of the living God.”
Therefore how does one know the truth if they reject its pillar and foundation, the Church?
Be like the Ethiopian eunuch who let Philip guide him into the truth of the Scriptures. Come to the “pillar and foundation of the truth,” “the Church of the living God”!
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Logically
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Hey what an awesome illustration!
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Logically
Guest
Yes, often.
Totally permitted and encouraged.
However praying to those who have died?
Doesn’t the Bible strictly forbid trying to contact the dead (straying into another subject I know)
Wouldn’t asking the dead to pray for us conflict with that?
That last bit just occured to me.
I haven’t followed the logic through yet. 
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ggarcia19
Guest
Whenever I am approached by a Jehovah Witness, I just keep it firm and simple.There is no need to be mean or ugly. I just simply say that I can never deny the netherworld or I tell them that I just don’t feel right calling God “Jehovah". I once had a Jehovah Witness tell me that the Pentecostals that raised me was just a bunch of fools making noise. Well, we can all be ugly, it doesn’t matter what religion you come from, I just try to keep it cool…
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Logically
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Very good post.
Sorry, I should have used the word “if” instead of “when.” When sounded too much as if it was a foregone conclusion.
Can I rephrase my question: What would happen if the scriptures the church tradition approved, contradict part of it’s tradition? Hypothetically speaking.
Does one have more authority than the other?
For example with JW’s, if a Watchtower article says “moses was bald” and then we notice a scripture that says “Moses had a good head of hair” (An absurd example I know) JW’s would take the Bible as a higher authority and the WT would say “we were wrong”
We believe Jehovah is using our church, but we are under no delusions we or anyone in our organisation are perfect.
Does the Catholic church have a similar view of the scriptures? “As the final authority”
Or can the church over ride the scriptures with a new tradition?
Or (option C)
is it not a problem because there has never been a contradiction?
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Logically
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dronald
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Logically; what does your Church teach on who created the Earth and Heavens?
Also, who is the first and the last?
Also, who is the first and the last?
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adrift
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Yes, often.
Totally permitted and encouraged.
However praying to those who have died?
Doesn’t the Bible strictly forbid trying to contact the dead (straying into another subject I know)
Wouldn’t asking the dead to pray for us conflict with that?
That last bit just occured to me.
Praying to Dead Folks
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PRmerger
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Necromancy is forbidden.
(Not sure what you mean by “contact the dead”–could you cite the verses you mean?)
But asking those in heaven to pray for us is nowhere forbidden.
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ShanPO
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Option C is the correct choice, like you’re taking the ACT’s!Very good post.
Sorry, I should have used the word “if” instead of “when.” When sounded too much as if it was a foregone conclusion.
Can I rephrase my question: What would happen if the scriptures the church tradition approved, contradict part of it’s tradition? Hypothetically speaking.
Does one have more authority than the other?
For example with JW’s, if a Watchtower article says “moses was bald” and then we notice a scripture that says “Moses had a good head of hair” (An absurd example I know) JW’s would take the Bible as a higher authority and the WT would say “we were wrong”
We believe Jehovah is using our church, but we are under no delusions we or anyone in our organisation are perfect.
Does the Catholic church have a similar view of the scriptures? “As the final authority”
Or can the church over ride the scriptures with a new tradition?
Or (option C)
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
It is C. There is no contradiction.Does the Catholic church have a similar view of the scriptures? “As the final authority”
Or can the church over ride the scriptures with a new tradition?
Or (option C)
To illustrate: Witnesses claim there is nothing about punishment after death or Purgatory in the Bible. “If there was such a thing it would be in the Bible,” Jehovah’s Witnesses often say. “And as for Purgatory, the word doesn’t even appear in Scripture.”
Simple logic, right? Game over.
But did you know that Jews believe in Purgatory? In the time of Christ there was already a widely accepted doctrine about punishment in the afterlife. And it’s right there in the BIble.
Did you know that Purgatory had a specific name in the first century? Jews, during Jesus’ day, referred to Purgatory as “Gehenna.”
As Wikipedia explains in its article entitled “Gehenna”:
Gehenna is considered [by Jews as] a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. …According to most Jewish sources, the period of purification or punishment is limited to only 12 months and every Sabbath day is excluded from punishment. After this the soul will ascend to Olam Ha-Ba (the world to come), be destroyed, or continue to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.
You see, if you aren’t reading the text from the viewpoint of the religious traditions that shaped it, you won’t know anything about this.
The Governing Body never tells the Witnesses that the term “Gehenna” means this to the Jewish audience Matthew addresses in his Gospel. They claim it means 'eternal destruction," but that’s not what those who developed the term meant.
Did you know the word “purgatory” is an old English word that simply means “purification”? Hebrews 9:14 can be thus rendered:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, **purgate **your conscience from dead works…
Does the Governing Body ever admit that Purgatory is not a place but a state of being purified of sin on the merits of Christ’s blood? That’s the official Catholic teaching. You can say: “I was in debt but I am now out of debt,” and you know that “debt” is not a literal location, right? That is the same thing as saying someone was in Purgatory, but now there are out of Purgatory. It’s not a place. It’s the process of purification from sin that some have merited to them on the basis of Christ’s sacrificial blood.
But if you don’t know the Tradition, you don’t know the correct definition of the words you read. And if you apply your own definitions to what you read, even if you try to do so as literally as possible, if you ignore the Tradition from which it came, you will miss these points.
The Bible is a product of the Tradition that shaped it. It reflects the religious Tradition from which it came. If you read this reflection without the Tradition that shaped it you will get things backward.
What Should You Do Now?
If we are lovers of truth and honesty, wouldn’t we do whatever we had to in order to know the truth? Are we courageous enough to take a stand for accuracy of understanding when it comes to Scripture and religion?
Why not read the Church Fathers–I mean all they have written. Not just blurbs you get from the Watchtower publications. If the religion of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is restored first-century Christianity, then surely you will find this reflected in these writings. How many of them have you read for yourself in full?
Want the most accurate translation of the Bible when you read it? Then why rely on what someone else has translated? Why not learn the languages yourself? You can easily and often freely learn Hebrew from Jews in your area. Sometimes there are Hebrew language classes offered to public at your local Temple. This way you can get the most accurate understanding possible.
Not comfortable with going to a Temple or Church for help. Then sign up at your local college. Again many universities offer night and day classes on ancient languages. Why not get a degree perhaps?
It’s not hard. I know Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. I even grew up speaking Ladino, a mixture of Hebrew and Latin/Spanish. If a kid can do it, so can you. Then you can speak authoritatively without any translation of the Bible because you can read it in the original languages yourself.
While a little debate can help to aid in open discussion, on forums they can often be endless. You need to avoid the trap of debate that never leads to a settled answer, for Scripture tells us we should not be like those who have
…a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words.–1 Timothy 6:4.
And if you really want to follow the Bible the way it was meant to be followed, you need to heed Jesus words about religions that make the claims the Jehovah’s Witnesses have been making for the past 100 years:
Many men, claiming to speak for me, will come and say, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time has come!’ But don’t follow them.
Don’t be afraid when you hear of wars and revolution; such things must happen first, but they don’t mean that the end is near.–Luke 21:8, 9.
Are we following those who say “the time has come” or who point to wars and others signs claiming the end is near? We must obey Jesus who said: “Don’t follow them!”
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Porknpie
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exactly Delson. If the first century Church reflected the teachings of the JWs then the folks in New York should be encouraging their flock to read all about the Early Church Fathers and they should be quoting the ECFs in their mission work. That fact that they do not do so speaks volumes.
In reading them one discovers what they believed, what they were taught by the apostles and their descendants, examples below
“…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, **together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; **but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1,10,10 (A.D. 180).
"…thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,’ these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity,” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,28,2 (A.D. 180).
“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).
On the above paragraph, it is helpful to know that St Ignatius was a disciple of St John the apostle, the same who was taught by Christ.
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Winston_Smith
Guest
Great discussion here. @Logically, you are bringing up classic arguments and questions used by Jehovah’s Witnesses (including myself some time ago), and the helpful Catholic responses are reinforcing my decision to make the journey from Jehovah’s Witnesses to the Catholic faith. Keep asking the questions and trying out the JW formulas, and if you openly consider the responses (which you seem to be doing, I hope), and you may find yourself as surprised as I was to learn what the Catholic faith is really about.
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John_6
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I, too am learning a lot from this discussion.
Winston continue on your journey home to the truth.
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Porknpie
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Winston,
For sure take advantage of the catholic.com library accessible on the home page. You can search for any topic of interest and select from the articles written. Another great site is johnsalza.com. Again, you can select topics of interest and look at the scripture passage links as well as the references to those writing in the early Church. Also, the book here by Jimmy Akin organizes some of the key writings of the early Church. It’s a nice reference to have.
I have learned a lot myself from the references above.
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Hortenzie
Guest
I used to be a JW. I truly believed that what they teached was the truth. Then because their expectations were not realized and their reasonings no longer fit they started to change many of their doctrines. I started to investicate it and eventually learned that they make their decisions by 2/3 majority vote and not by leading of Holy spirit as they claimed. That certainly would explain all those doctrinal flip-flops. In the process they destroyed my faith in God, the Scriptures, and enybody who claims to teach anything about God. I’m now in the process of picking up the pieces and trying to rebuild my faith and my trust…
JWs are just another man-made religion that’s why it doesn’t stand the test of time.
Furthermore, Logically is here to proselytize (which is against the rules) and he counts his time preaching to the others here on the forum (just a warning).
JWs are just another man-made religion that’s why it doesn’t stand the test of time.
Furthermore, Logically is here to proselytize (which is against the rules) and he counts his time preaching to the others here on the forum (just a warning).
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adf417
Guest
Welcome Hortenzie and may God truly bless you abundantly on your journey. I am very sorry your faith has been shaken as deeply as it has. I pray God restores your faith and through his graces, embraces you once again.
Peace brother!!!
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Porknpie
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Likewise Hortenzie, I pray for you as well. Please spend time on this website to learn more about the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.Welcome Hortenzie and may God truly bless you abundantly on your journey. I am very sorry your faith has been shaken as deeply as it has. I pray God restores your faith and through his graces, embraces you once again.
Peace brother!!!
Also, EWTN’s show The Journey Home features many who have converted to Catholicism. Audio podcasts of past programs are available. The link here will take you to their website and you can type in and search for Jehovah Witness conversion stories by typing in “Jehovah” in the key words box under Programs. You will then be able to listen to a podcast or you can download the show if you would like.
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Hortenzie
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adf417 and Porknpie - thank you very much for your kind words… I hope that God will restore my faith, He well knows I can’t do it on my own. 
And I will check the link. Thanks again.
And I will check the link. Thanks again.
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