First lesbian bishop to be consecrated by Anglican church in America

[benidict]

There is a lot that Jesus did not discuss.

But he did discuss love, even love for undesirables, even charity of spirit toward adulterers about to be executed. I don’t remember that Jesus ever addressed homosexuality in any form.

And yes, it is too spiritual change.

he also discussed judgment, and that God is a Holy God. and yes for undesireables. but what did he tell the woman caught in adultry? go and sin no more. your right tho. it is spiritual change. the devil is winning on this front. temporaraily of course. peace

 

[CMatt25]

the Catholic Church has fought for universal health care, Buddhist monks set themselves on fire to protest the war in Vietnam and fight for peace, the Catholic Church has played a huge part in liberation theology in South America, etc. I think religion can be extremely progressive…

Well some of us progressives might say the nuns fought harder than the bishops. And yeah the CC in SA is also who excommunicated a mother because her 9 yr old daughter was raped by her stepfather and she legally chose not to force her 9 yr old to carry twin fetuses in her womb to term. Ahhhh good ol progressive lib theology to forcing a young child’s body to carry twin fetuses to full term for 9 mos. Go figure.

 

[larkin31]

he also discussed judgment, and that God is a Holy God. and yes for undesireables. but what did he tell the woman caught in adultry? go and sin no more. your right tho. it is spiritual change. the devil is winning on this front. temporaraily of course. peace

So, you think that the devil is at work in the leadership and laity of TEC? Are you ordained in the Episcopal Church, of which you speak?

 

[larkin31]

Well some of us progressives might say the nuns fought harder than the bishops. And yeah the CC in SA is also who excommunicated a mother because her 9 yr old daughter was raped by her stepfather and she legally chose not to force her 9 yr old to carry twin fetuses in her womb to term. Ahhhh good ol progressive lib theology to forcing a young child’s body to carry twin fetuses to full term for 9 mos. Go figure.

Yes

DIdn’t the Catholics there reverse their decision about the ex-communication?

 

[CMatt25]

Yes

DIdn’t the Catholics there reverse their decision about the ex-communication?

I think maybe I did see something about that Larkin. Thanx for reminding me the CC can change it’s mind. I know public pressure was immense.

 

[benidict]

So, you think that the devil is at work in the leadership and laity of TEC? Are you ordained in the Episcopal Church, of which you speak?

im not going to shy away from this. yes i do think the devil is at work through a segment of the leadership of the tec. just as he is at work attempting to use people to bring in destructive practices into Roman Catholocism. just as God allows humans to be an instrument for him. the devil also uses people to be instruments for him. i do not need to be ordained to see that pushing this agenda is evil. sure ill call it for what it is. there is a spiritual component to both sides working here. but since you are agnostic my friend, do you believe there even is such a thing as good and evil, or even a literal devil? or the possibility of one? peace

 

[larkin31]

im not going to shy away from this. yes i do think the devil is at work through a segment of the leadership of the tec. just as he is at work attempting to use people to bring in destructive practices into Roman Catholocism. just as God allows humans to be an instrument for him. the devil also uses people to be instruments for him. i do not need to be ordained to see that pushing this agenda is evil. sure ill call it for what it is. there is a spiritual component to both sides working here. but since you are agnostic my friend, do you believe there even is such a thing as good and evil, or even a literal devil? or the possibility of one? peace

sorry, I thought I was asking PadreJ.

No there is no devil outside our own metaphorical projections of the evil we create ourselves. But evil? Sure, there is a lot of evil in the world. But it is all man-made. I can never blame it on a force outside ourselves. There is no scapegoat, no bad-guy, no fallen angry angel. That is laughable and dishonest, as far as I am concerned.

 

[larkin31]

I think maybe I did see something about that Larkin. Thanx for reminding me the CC can change it’s mind. I know public pressure was immense.

I have been a referee. This is called a “correctable error”!

 

[CMatt25]

im not going to shy away from this. yes i do think the devil is at work through a segment of the leadership of the tec. just as he is at work attempting to use people to bring in destructive practices into Roman Catholocism. just as God allows humans to be an instrument for him. the devil also uses people to be instruments for him. i do not need to be ordained to see that pushing this agenda is evil. sure ill call it for what it is. there is a spiritual component to both sides working here. but since you are agnostic my friend, do you believe there even is such a thing as good and evil, or even a literal devil? or the possibility of one? peace

So the devil has been @ work within the Apostolic successors of the Catholic Church too you are saying? I thought the gates of hell were not to prevail aganst the Church?

 

[benidict]

So the devil has been @ work within the Apostolic successors of the Catholic Church too you are saying? I thought the gates of hell were not to prevail aganst the Church?

the gates of hell have not prevailed. i was refering more so to the priest who are actively rebelling against Rome, and attempting to create division and strife within the Catholic Church with their agendas. 2 come to mind. as far as the apostolic successors. we have had bad leadership before. and im sure the devil is active in some elements of the vatican itself. however. the Church has never erred in doctrine. i also would ask you the same question i asked larkin. just out of curiosity my friend. do you think the devil is a real entity, or not? is there really good or evil or not? lets not forget also that paul at times was opposed from within. and the early Church. look at arianism, and other heresies that were brought in at various times. the devil has never ceased attempting to destroy the Church from within or from without. peace

 

[benidict]

sorry, I thought I was asking PadreJ.

No there is no devil outside our own metaphorical projections of the evil we create ourselves. But evil? Sure, there is a lot of evil in the world. But it is all man-made. I can never blame it on a force outside ourselves. There is no scapegoat, no bad-guy, no fallen angry angel. That is laughable and dishonest, as far as I am concerned.

i thank you for your honest answer. peace

 

[Padrej]

I agree. Two things jumped out at me:

1. To summarize paragraph 2.7) One major matter of the early church was how to include the Gentiles. Gentiles would not have to take on all Jewish laws but just the ones they consider immoral. My question: Who decides what is moral?
2. To summarize paragraphs
   2.21a) We don’t follow some of Leviticus, so we are not require to follow any of it.
   2.21b Even though St. Paul condemns homosexual sex in Roman 1:26-27, he is still a first century Jew who believes in Leviticus, see 2.21a. Because Paul said you judge for yourself whether women should cover their head in prayer, he must think we should judge for ourselves on homosexual sex. We should not judge peoples actions because that is God’s role. MY question: With this logic, why not just throw the Bible away and do whatever we want?

Seems like more of an excuse than a position.

You hit the proverbial nail square on the head. In my mind the Episcopal church is literally throwing the Bible away and doing whatever it darn well pleases. You are very correct, it is an excuse and not a position. You must also understand that the document in question is in response to the earlier “Windsor Report” Which basically condemns the acts and speaks of the reconciliation process that was going on between John Paul II and The Archbishop of Canterbury at the time.
See this link, IT IS VERY LONG
anglicancommunion.org/windsor2004/downloads/windsor2004full.pdf

In my mind the report you all are picking apart has NO merit whatsoever as you point out as far as any theological document goes.

 

[Padrej]

I think you have a really bad understanding of the polity of TEC. The House of Deputies, which is on equal standing in The General Convention as the House of Bishops, is composed of ordained and laity. 8 members from each of the 109 diocese are elected by those appointed by their congregations to the Diocese conventions. There is strong lay leadership. So please don’t misrepresent that the poor laity are suffering at the hands of the evil bishops. It’s a representative democracy. This is truly a time where the sensus fidelium is an active participant.

The problem is not in the conventions it is in the bishops who do whatever they darn well please and to heck with what cannon law says and the Bible as well. They know that the laity will do and can do NOTHING to them. That is what I was referring to. If they set a precedent of homosexual clergy who can turn them down? If a bishop is put forth (elected) by 2/3 vote of clergy and 1/3 of lay and then has to be approved by the house bishops only where do you have strong laity?

 

[CMatt25]

the gates of hell have not prevailed. i was refering more so to the priest who are actively rebelling against Rome, and attempting to create division and strife within the Catholic Church with their agendas. 2 come to mind. as far as the apostolic successors. we have had bad leadership before. and im sure the devil is active in some elements of the vatican itself. however. the Church has never erred in doctrine. i also would ask you the same question i asked larkin. just out of curiosity my friend. do you think the devil is a real entity, or not? is there really good or evil or not? lets not forget also that paul at times was opposed from within. and the early Church. look at arianism, and other heresies that were brought in at various times. the devil has never ceased attempting to destroy the Church from within or from without. peace

Benidict, our brother in the human race Larkin is agnostic though I certainly find he exemplifies Christ’s love (I hope no offense Larkin) in many of his posts and in how he treats fellow human beings better than I might argue some of us Christians. I am a Christian however, not by sight but by faith so my answer is going to be a bit different than Larkin’s when you asked him. Yes I believe the devil is an entity and yes I believe in good and evil.

 

[Padrej]

So the devil has been @ work within the Apostolic successors of the Catholic Church too you are saying? I thought the gates of hell were not to prevail aganst the Church?

I notice that the Roman Catholic Church has not split apart like the Episcopal Church is doing so I would say that the gates of Hell are not prevailing.

 

[CMatt25]

I notice that the Roman Catholic Church has not split apart like the Episcopal Church is doing so I would say that the gates of Hell are not prevailing.

Well you have a point. Only in the wildest dreams of the hardest core do all of us agree on everything. In reality, if you believe that, I have a bridge I’d like to sell you. But we’re still all Catholics per the Church! :yup:

 

[benidict]

Benidict, our brother in the human race Larkin is agnostic though I certainly find he exemplifies Christ’s love (I hope no offense Larkin) in many of his posts and in how he treats fellow human beings better than I might argue some of us Christians. I am a Christian however, not by sight but by faith so my answer is going to be a bit different than Larkin’s when you asked him. Yes I believe the devil is an entity and yes I believe in good and evil.

cmatt. i really do not think our friend larkin is going to be offended by this. and i thank you also for your honest answer. and i agree that larkin does do a better job than than some of us christians in exibiting charitable behavior. Peace

 

[Padrej]

im not going to shy away from this. yes i do think the devil is at work through a segment of the leadership of the tec. just as he is at work attempting to use people to bring in destructive practices into Roman Catholocism. just as God allows humans to be an instrument for him. the devil also uses people to be instruments for him. i do not need to be ordained to see that pushing this agenda is evil. sure ill call it for what it is. there is a spiritual component to both sides working here. but since you are agnostic my friend, do you believe there even is such a thing as good and evil, or even a literal devil? or the possibility of one? peace

I feel there is evil afoot in all denominations of the Christian church trying to tear it down to its foundation. Some denominations give in to the evil while others fight against it. Larkin, I hope that answered your question.

 

[benidict]

I feel there is evil afoot in all denominations of the Christian church trying to tear it down to its foundation. Some denominations give in to the evil while others fight against it. Larkin, I hope that answered your question.

i would agree with this assesment my friend. also in our personal walk, we have to be on guard. i pray that God strengthen you in all you do. do you now have your own parish? or are you still waiting? peace

 

[FrJohnB]

im not going to shy away from this. yes i do think the devil is at work through a segment of the leadership of the tec. just as he is at work attempting to use people to bring in destructive practices into Roman Catholocism. just as God allows humans to be an instrument for him. the devil also uses people to be instruments for him. i do not need to be ordained to see that pushing this agenda is evil. sure ill call it for what it is. there is a spiritual component to both sides working here. but since you are agnostic my friend, do you believe there even is such a thing as good and evil, or even a literal devil? or the possibility of one? peace

Evil or the devil or whatever you want to call it depending on your persuasion has always been at work to try and destroy the church. We have the promise that it will not prevail. As to the Episcopal Church I look at it this way, The Bible always speaks that there will always be a faithful remnant, and I Pray that there will be. I would love to see a conservative like Padrej come to Rome but right now the Anglicans need him as much as we do. God will always provide.