First Presidential Debate 9/26/16 Thread

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There have been all kinds of breakdown of judgment and willful blindness around Donald Trump’s candidacy. Even miltary leaders are not immune from that. They are also not immune from breakdown of proper judgment on other issues. The generals wanted to militarily confront the Sovjet Union during the Cuban missle crisis, President Kennedy refused. If he hadn’t, we all might not be here to have this discussion. A few years later, military leaders consistently made bad judgments about Vietnam. We know how that turned out.

More than 80 military leaders and national security experts have endorsed Hillary Clinton, with one prominent reason not just being that Clinton would be competent on national security, but that, as explicitly stated, Trump would be a menace to national security. In my view, they are right.
If those same 200 generals and/or admirals had endorsed Hillary Clinton instead of Donald Trump, why do I suspect you wouldn’t be be questioning the “judgement” so much of these people then? Am I wrong?

You question those who have endorsed Donald Trump, but then you cite a number of, “military leaders and national security experts”, that have endorsed Hillary Clinton? Are there not those that have endorsed Hillary Clinton that have done what you commented about the Cuba situation or the Soviet? Why is their judgement any better than those that those that have endorsed Donald Trump?

By the way, in regards to that Washington post article… the Post is entitled to their view, but 200 admirals and/or generals that have endorsed Trump… or the Washington Post? What military or national security experience does anybody have that has signed on to that article at The Washington Post?
 
Nice try. FEC has said something was wrong with his mic
And that caused him to ramble and rant? I have spoken with good mics, bad ones, no mic. Never impacted the substance of what I said. It can be a bit annoying when there is an equipment problem, but it doesn’t shut your brain off or keep you from saying what you want to say.
 
By the way, in regards to that Washington post article… the Post is entitled to their view, but 200 admirals and/or generals that have endorsed Trump… or the Washington Post? What military or national security experience does anybody have that has signed on to that article at The Washington Post?
There are two factors involved in deciding if a candidate is right for a certain office. One is knowledge of the candidate. The other is knowledge of the office. When you point out these former military leaders know more about the military and national security, you are referring to the second factor. But the Washington Post, through its superior investigative resources, is in a better position to know Trump and Clinton than some retired general. And regarding issues of the office other than national security, those generals are no better informed than the average person.
 
There are two factors involved in deciding if a candidate is right for a certain office. One is knowledge of the candidate. The other is knowledge of the office. When you point out these former military leaders know more about the military and national security, you are referring to the second factor. But the Washington Post, through its superior investigative resources, is in a better position to know Trump and Clinton than some retired general. And regarding issues of the office other than national security, those generals are no better informed than the average person.
I don’t see how an “average person” would have anywhere near the expertise on issues of military and the national security that a general or admiral would have. I suspect if you went and asked an average person their knowledge on issues of national security or the military, they wouldn’t have anywhere near the knowledge of a retired general and/or admiral.

He gets many endorsements - the judgement of those that gave the endorsement can then be questioned. If he hadn’t had as many endorsements then would it be seen as those having had experience with the military and nationals security, not believing he is a good enough candidate to be given an endorsement?! He wouldn’t win either way in regards to endorsements, it seems to me, with those that oppose Donald Trump becoming President?!

If the Washington Post came out and gave a fully fledged endorsement of Donald Trump and wrote of how he could be trusted on national security and how he would be better on the issue than Hillary Clinton, Gary Johnson or Jill Stein, I doubt it would persuade many of those who are already very partisan against Trump.
 
I decided to do so and no power tried to stop me from voting for Sanders. The voters had their say and Clinton won the popular vote by a landslide. By over 3 million votes and a 55%-45% nationwide tally.
That is, if you believe all the votes were counted accurately, or at all. LOL
 
Washington Post Editorial Board:
The clear and present danger of Donald Trump

IF YOU know that Donald Trump is ignorant, unprepared and bigoted, but are thinking of voting for him anyway because you doubt he could do much harm — this editorial is for you.

Your support of the Republican presidential nominee may be motivated by dislike of the Democratic alternative, disgust with the Washington establishment or a desire to send a message in favor of change. You may not approve of everything Mr. Trump has had to say about nuclear weapons, torture or mass deportations, but you doubt he could implement anything too radical. Congress, the courts, the Constitution — these would keep Mr. Trump in check, you think.

Well, think again. A President Trump could, unilaterally, change this country to its core. By remaking U.S. relations with other nations, he could fundamentally reshape the world, too.

Of course, in many areas Mr. Trump would not have to act unilaterally. If he won, chances are Republicans would maintain control of Congress. GOP majorities there would be enthusiastic participants in much of what Mr. Trump would like to do: gutting environmental and workplace regulations, slashing taxes so that the debt skyrockets, appointing Supreme Court justices who oppose a woman’s right to have an abortion. In areas where Republican officeholders such as House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (Wis.) and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.) imagine themselves acting as a brake on Mr. Trump’s worst instincts, skepticism is in order. If these supposed leaders are too craven to oppose Mr. Trump as a candidate, knowing the danger he presents, why should we expect them to stand up to the bully once he was fully empowered?

But say they did — or imagine, also improbably, that Mr. Trump faced a Democratic Congress. The president would appoint officers — a budget director, an attorney general, a CIA chief — who were disposed to let him have his way. And in the U.S. system, the scope for executive action is, as we will lay out in a series of editorials next week, astonishingly broad. At times we have questioned President Obama’s sweeping use of those powers even when we agreed with his goals, such as his broad grant of amnesty to millions of undocumented immigrants. Mr. Trump could push it much further.

Could he tear up long-standing international agreements? Round up and expel millions of longtime U.S. residents? Impose giant tariffs? Waterboard terrorist suspects? Yes, yes, yes and yes — all without so much as an if-you-please to Congress. Could he bar the media from covering him? To a large extent, yes. Could he use the government to help his businesses and, as he has threatened, injure those he perceives as enemies? Yes, he could.

Given Mr. Trump’s ever-evolving positions, and the apparent absence of fundamental beliefs other than in his own brilliance, it would be foolish to make flat predictions of how he would behave. Nor do we underestimate the resilience of the U.S. system or the devotion that U.S. government workers bring to the rule of law.

But it would be reckless not to consider the damage Mr. Trump might wreak. Some of that damage would ensue more from who he is than what he does. His racism and disparagement of women could empower extremists who are now on the margins of American politics, while his lies and conspiracy theories could legitimize discourse that until now has been relegated to the fringe. But his scope for action should not be underestimated, either. In our upcoming editorials, we will examine some arenas where Mr. Trump has been relatively clear about his intentions — and where presidential powers are mighty. We hope you will read them before you vote.
I don’t bother reading most of your posts because they are so biased. This is from The Washington Post. :rolleyes:
 
I don’t see how an “average person” would have anywhere near the expertise on issues of military and the national security that a general or admiral would have. I suspect if you went and asked an average person their knowledge on issues of national security or the military, they wouldn’t have anywhere near the knowledge of a retired general and/or admiral.

He gets many endorsements - the judgement of those that gave the endorsement can then be questioned. If he hadn’t had as many endorsements then would it be seen as those having had experience with the military and nationals security, not believing he is a good enough candidate to be given an endorsement?! He wouldn’t win either way in regards to endorsements, it seems to me, with those that oppose Donald Trump becoming President?!

If the Washington Post came out and gave a fully fledged endorsement of Donald Trump and wrote of how he could be trusted on national security and how he would be better on the issue than Hillary Clinton, Gary Johnson or Jill Stein, I doubt it would persuade many of those who are already very partisan against Trump.
Maybe reread Leaf’s last sentence.
 
Washington Post Editorial Board:
The clear and present danger of Donald Trump

IF YOU know that Donald Trump is ignorant, unprepared and bigoted, but are thinking of voting for him anyway because you doubt he could do much harm — this editorial is for you.

Your support of the Republican presidential nominee may be motivated by dislike of the Democratic alternative, disgust with the Washington establishment or a desire to send a message in favor of change. You may not approve of everything Mr. Trump has had to say about nuclear weapons, torture or mass deportations, but you doubt he could implement anything too radical. Congress, the courts, the Constitution — these would keep Mr. Trump in check, you think.

Well, think again. A President Trump could, unilaterally, change this country to its core. By remaking U.S. relations with other nations, he could fundamentally reshape the world, too.

Of course, in many areas Mr. Trump would not have to act unilaterally. If he won, chances are Republicans would maintain control of Congress. GOP majorities there would be enthusiastic participants in much of what Mr. Trump would like to do: gutting environmental and workplace regulations, slashing taxes so that the debt skyrockets, appointing Supreme Court justices who oppose a woman’s right to have an abortion. In areas where Republican officeholders such as House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (Wis.) and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.) imagine themselves acting as a brake on Mr. Trump’s worst instincts, skepticism is in order. If these supposed leaders are too craven to oppose Mr. Trump as a candidate, knowing the danger he presents, why should we expect them to stand up to the bully once he was fully empowered?

But say they did — or imagine, also improbably, that Mr. Trump faced a Democratic Congress. The president would appoint officers — a budget director, an attorney general, a CIA chief — who were disposed to let him have his way. And in the U.S. system, the scope for executive action is, as we will lay out in a series of editorials next week, astonishingly broad. At times we have questioned President Obama’s sweeping use of those powers even when we agreed with his goals, such as his broad grant of amnesty to millions of undocumented immigrants. Mr. Trump could push it much further.

Could he tear up long-standing international agreements? Round up and expel millions of longtime U.S. residents? Impose giant tariffs? Waterboard terrorist suspects? Yes, yes, yes and yes — all without so much as an if-you-please to Congress. Could he bar the media from covering him? To a large extent, yes. Could he use the government to help his businesses and, as he has threatened, injure those he perceives as enemies? Yes, he could.

Given Mr. Trump’s ever-evolving positions, and the apparent absence of fundamental beliefs other than in his own brilliance, it would be foolish to make flat predictions of how he would behave. Nor do we underestimate the resilience of the U.S. system or the devotion that U.S. government workers bring to the rule of law.

But it would be reckless not to consider the damage Mr. Trump might wreak. Some of that damage would ensue more from who he is than what he does. His racism and disparagement of women could empower extremists who are now on the margins of American politics, while his lies and conspiracy theories could legitimize discourse that until now has been relegated to the fringe. But his scope for action should not be underestimated, either. In our upcoming editorials, we will examine some arenas where Mr. Trump has been relatively clear about his intentions — and where presidential powers are mighty. We hope you will read them before you vote.
Trump’s post-debate behavior has been repugnant. I didn’t think there was any way for him to behave more boorishly or juvenile than he has throughout the campaign, but this past week has proven otherwise. Think about it: it Trump was posting his comments on this forum, he would have been banned a long time ago.
 
Do you ever wonder if she didn’t pull off the nomination in 2008 but managed to in 2016, not because of some “deal” but because the majority of Democratic voters chose her in this primary?
Yep, she lost fair and square in 2008 and she won fair and square in 2016. She was a strong candidate in both if those primaries

To dig a little deeper, in 2008, Hillary lost to Obama by much less of a margin than Bernie lost to her in 2012.
 
no. he is not used to the nastiness of politics and how far the opposition will go.
Mr. Trump re-defined political nastiness during the Republican primary - constantly attacking other Conservative candidates (and anyone else he could get in his crosshairs) via boorish insults, immature tweets, constant name-calling and outright lies.

But now he’s too tender for the opposition’s campaign? Bahahahahahaha!!!😃
 
In my opinion, it’s Mr. Trump that has mostly been responsible for making this campaign one of the ugliest on record and it started in the primaries with his name calling of his Republican adversaries.

But considering how ugly it’s gotten, Mrs. Clinton has handled herself amazingly well. And she’s been putting up with an incredible amount of vitriol directed her way for 30 years and if any of this has gotten under her skin, she certainly hasn’t shown it very much in public which is something I rather admire about her.
Hillary has been a role model and a hero in my life for the last 3 decades in no small part because of this. She’s an amazing woman.
 
Then he should have complained at the time and not wait until scientific polling showed he lost and blame his poor performance on the mic after the fact.
“Anybody who complains about the microphone is NOT having a good night…”
 
I wouldn’t trust Hillary with anything, including nuclear. How much trust do you have in Hillary to protect the life of an unborn child?
Secretary Clinton, like most citizens of the United States, supports the wisdom and justice of Roe v. Wade. In any event, so far in this election, abortion has barely been an issue.
 
Secretary Clinton, like most citizens of the United States, supports the wisdom and justice of Roe v. Wade. In any event, so far in this election, abortion has barely been an issue.
Roe v Wade supports justice for the unborn? I don’t think so!
 
I agree, yet I will defend the unborn. The right to life is in our Declaration and its a shame how killing is now a business and solution
 
The right to life is in our Declaration …
Indeed, and it behooves us to define life as beginning at conception as an amendment to the Constitution. Then there would be nothing the Supreme Court could do about it.
 
Indeed, and it behooves us to define life as beginning at conception as an amendment to the Constitution. Then there would be nothing the Supreme Court could do about it.
Except that such an amendment to the Constitution would never get through Congress and also get ratified. It would require a two-thirds vote from both the House and the Senate and then would need to be ratified by three fourths of the states. It just wouldn’t happen.
 
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