First visit to an Eastern Church?

[ciero]

Most Ukrainian Catholic parishes do.

Not all!

There are also Ruthenian, Melkite and Romanian Catholic churches within the 5 boroughs.

 

[TrueLight]

Not all!

There are also Ruthenian, Melkite and Romanian Catholic churches within the 5 boroughs.

Thanks! I guessI had the wrong info.

Does Ukranian mean it’s Byzantine liturgy?

 

[5Loaves]

Hey,

I thought St Michael’s was the only Eastern Catholic Church in NYC. There is also St George’s Ukranian Catholic Church.

And they have pews.

I only brought up St Michael’s because the topic of pews came up, and Russians pretty much nix pews. But as I said I don’t know about whether St Michael’s has them.
And of course I’d like to hear what it’s like there. Our deacon did spend a long time chatting with their priest the evening of the Enthronement of Bishop Nicholas as Eparch of Newton.

 

[5Loaves]

How do you define “Catechumens”? .

Catechumen Greek, meaning “one in whom word echoes”; one who celebrated the Rite of Acceptance; an unbaptized person who is preparing for full initiation at the Easter Vigil.

Having gone through a period of Evangelization and Precatechumenate the unbaptized enter the Period of the Catechumenate (see beginning page 37) in the Rite of Acceptance into the Order of Catechumens. For the Latin Church the United States of America (USA) Bishops have approved National Statutes (beginning page 363) and a national plan of implementation. RCIA became mandatory in the USA in 1988 in the Latin Church.

No one is dismissed from Church** for the Consecration**.

As mentioned earlier dismissal occurs in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite after the homily and before the Credo i.e. at the conclusion of the Liturgy of the Catechumens/ Liturgy of the Word before the Liturgy of the Faithful/ Liturgy of the Eucharist**, well before the Anaphora/Consecration**. And as mentioned before if there are no catechumens attending a Mass with their RCIA group then naturally no one is going to be dismissed.

The catechumens only come to the Liturgy of the Catechumens/Liturgy of the Word at one Mass so only those faithful attending that particular Mass would ever see the Dismissal of the Catechumens. My Latin parish has 5 “Sunday” Masses each Sat./Sun… Only those at the Mass which the catechumens, sponsors and team members attend will see the Dismissal of the Catechumens. Those attending the 4 other Masses each weekend will naturally not see our catechumens dismissed since the catechumens and the team are not present as the RCIA in the 4 other Masses each Sat./Sun. If your Roman Rite parish doesn’t do this with their catechumens that is the priest’s decision but it is not what is intended in the RCIA as set out by the US Bishops.

In the Byzantine Liturgy both Catholic and Orthodox after the litany of catechumens the catechumens are dismissed. All catechumens depart! All catechumens depart!, Let no catechumens remain!

Yes.
And, as mentioned before, if the parish has no catechumens then the priest might eliminate this Litany and one would only hear “The doors! The doors!” before the recitation of The Symbol of Faith/The Creed.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thanks! I guessI had the wrong info.

Does Ukranian mean it’s Byzantine liturgy?

Yes. The only difference is if you have pews, you’ll probably be seated at most of the litanies and there will be those who kneel during the Consecration and after receiving Communion.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Having gone through a period of Evangelization and Precatechumenate the unbaptized enter the Period of the Catechumenate (see beginning page 37) in the Rite of Acceptance into the Order of Catechumens. For the Latin Church the United States of America (USA) Bishops have approved National Statutes (beginning page 363) and a national plan of implementation. RCIA became mandatory in the USA in 1988 in the Latin Church.

As mentioned earlier dismissal occurs in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite after the homily and before the Credo i.e. at the conclusion of the Liturgy of the Catechumens/ Liturgy of the Word before the Liturgy of the Faithful/ Liturgy of the Eucharist**, well before the Anaphora/Consecration**. And as mentioned before if there are no catechumens attending a Mass with their RCIA group then naturally no one is going to be dismissed.

The catechumens only come to the Liturgy of the Catechumens/Liturgy of the Word at one Mass so only those faithful attending that particular Mass would ever see the Dismissal of the Catechumens. My Latin parish has 5 “Sunday” Masses each Sat./Sun… Only those at the Mass which the catechumens, sponsors and team members attend will see the Dismissal of the Catechumens. Those attending the 4 other Masses each weekend will naturally not see our catechumens dismissed since the catechumens and the team are not present as the RCIA in the 4 other Masses each Sat./Sun. If your Roman Rite parish doesn’t do this with their catechumens that is the priest’s decision but it is not what is intended in the RCIA as set out by the US Bishops.

Yes.
And, as mentioned before, if the parish has no catechumens then the priest might eliminate this Litany and one would only hear “The doors! The doors!” before the recitation of The Symbol of Faith/The Creed.

                                                 This  entire  debate  about  Dismissal  of  unbaptized  Catechumens  is    Only  at the  Rite  of   Election  with  The  Bishop,  if  The  Eucharistic Celebration  Follows:  i.e.  Full Mass  Rite  of Election.                                                                                                 Unbaptized  Catechumens  are   not  Dismissed:  (The  Door,  The  Door)   at  the  Rite  Of Election     to The  Bishop,  because  There is No Mass,  No  Eucharistic  Feast.  Thus,  this  entire Detail  has  led to  Confusion,  because  it  is  so  extremly  Rare  occurance in the  Roman Rite  of  becoming Catholic.  

                                                                                                                     Attendinfg  a  Mass as  an observer is  Highly Encouraged  for the uncatechized   and  Atjheists,   to  hopefully  begin to  discover  How  Rich  Liturgy  and Holy   Spirit  the  Lord's  Supper  Is.                                                                                                          [SIGN]  Thus, it  would be Extremly Rare in anyone's   lifetime to  witness  the  Dismissal  of    the  Catechumens  modern Day, perhaps  Post-Catacombally.  [/SIGN]
                                                                                                                     Thank you  for  answering my  question  and  all your Refernce  Links.   :signofcross::byzsoc:

 

[AntalKalnoky]

From AntalKalnoky

1. I don’t know any Orthodox Priest who would encourage a non-Orthodox Christian to join the line at the time for the Reception of the Holy Gifts in order to receive a blessing. They would be told to approach and kiss the Cross and receive antidoron at the end of the Liturgy.
2. Non-Catholics are not encouraged by the CHURCH to approach the priest during Communion for a Blessing . This is a pious custom that has crept into common practice and is not approved by the Church Authorities

Neither Orthodox or Roman Priests “Encourage” the unqualified to Receive The Blessing; Both Mention the opportunity for. Often happens at our Funeral Masses; only a tiny few do for the Blessing. Only 1 or 2 of us at the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. Also, one does not need to be Christian to receive a Blessing, only Respectful.

 

[TrueLight]

This entire debate about Dismissal of unbaptized Catechumens is Only at the Rite of Election with The Bishop, if The Eucharistic Celebration Follows: i.e. Full Mass Rite of Election. Unbaptized Catechumens are not Dismissed: (The Door, The Door) at the Rite Of Election to The Bishop, because There is No Mass, No Eucharistic Feast. Thus, this entire Detail has led to Confusion, because it is so extremly Rare occurance in the Roman Rite of becoming Catholic.

                                                                                                                     Attendinfg  a  Mass as  an observer is  Highly Encouraged  for the uncatechized   and  Atjheists,   to  hopefully  begin to  discover  How  Rich  Liturgy  and Holy   Spirit  the  Lord's  Supper  Is.                                                                                                          [SIGN]  Thus, it  would be Extremly Rare in anyone's   lifetime to  witness  the  Dismissal  of    the  Catechumens  modern Day, perhaps  Post-Catacombally.  [/SIGN]
                                                                                                                     Thank you  for  answering my  question  and  all your Refernce  Links.   :signofcross::byzsoc:

That may be your experience. However,

1. I’m telling you I heard the dismissal at an OCA Orthodox DL I attended (unless the OCA are not considered orthodox).
2. There have been multiple threads about this dismissal, so some parishes do it.

Check out this thread.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

That may be your experience. However,

1. I’m telling you I heard the dismissal at an OCA Orthodox DL I attended (unless the OCA are not considered orthodox).
2. There have been multiple threads about this dismissal, so some parishes do it.

Check out this thread.

So Atheists and Protestants can Attend the entire Mass, as is done everywhere I know, Including several Cathedrals, but “Catechumens” are ‘dismissed’ in a Very Few? Sounds like some Pastors are of the confused Weak Catechesis 1970’s, 1980’s era. There are still occassional bizarre Mass practices occuring, which are Violation of the Liturgical Norms of the Church. Again, the confusion may be in Definitions: “Cathechumens”, “Dismissal”, etc. I’ve cited Church Law, And Practise.

          Would you  explain the  circumstances of the  OCA     dirmisal   you  witnessed?  A  rite of Election Mass by a  Bishop?  A  regular  Parish Mass?  Details please.  Thank You.

• I repeat Church Liturgical Law: Dismissal of Catechumens is Only at The Rite Of Election, if the Bishop also says a regular Mass; which is almost never. Rite of Election is Only the Rite of Election with the Bishop, Only, without Mass, in my Traditional Booming Diocese.
  
  

 

[TrueLight]

     Would you  explain the  circumstances of the  OCA     dirmisal   you  witnessed?  A  rite of Election Mass by a  Bishop?  A  regular  Parish Mass?  Details please.  Thank You.

I attended a Divine Liturgy on a Sunday at an OCA Church/parish (I’m not sure of the correct term).

I asked an orthodox person on CAF, for help and he contacted the priest ahead of time and let him know I was coming. The priest emailed me and assigned a parishioner as a guide for me. She sat next to me and explained what was happening. That was so awesome!

So at some point, and I don’t remember whether it was the deacon or priest, who sang out something like “Let all the Catechumens depart”. I know 5Loaves quoted the actual text. I looked at my guide and asked her if I had to leave and she said no. I didn’t notice whether anyone left or not.

That’s all I know. It was all new to me and not totally clear.

 

[5Loaves]

There are still occassional bizarre Mass practices occuring, which are Violation of the Liturgical Norms of the Church. Again, the confusion may be in Definitions: “Cathechumens”, “Dismissal”, etc. I’ve cited Church Law, And Practise.

?

In previous posts in this thread I provided you with links the Rites of the RCIA as well as to definitions.

You initiated this discussion about the dismissal in the Roman Rite:

                                                                  Dismissal  of Catechumens  is  Orthodox  Liturgy; **not  observed  at  Roman Mass**,    excpt Once powerfully  symbolically dismissal/return at  The Easter Vigil  High Mass,   before receiving the  first Sacraments.

I have engaged in it with you here because what you have said is not correct but* this discussion does not belong in the Eastern Catholicism section*. Please bring your discussion to the Liturgy and Sacraments section of CAF where the RCIA process of the Latin Church in the US is frequently discussed.

I have already provided you with a number of links in this thread to information on the dismissal, as well as to the Rites and the National Statues for the Catechumenate from the US Bishops.

So far you have provided us with statements with no links to back them up. I’d be happy as would others to respond to your statements if you provide links to the source material and if you do so in the Liturgy and Sacraments section.

    **Would you  explain the  circumstances of the  **OCA     dirmisal ****  you  witnessed? A  **rite of Election Mass by a  Bishop?  A  regular  Parish Mass?  Details please.  Thank You.

I repeat Church Liturgical Law: Dismissal of Catechumens is Only at The Rite Of Election**, if the Bishop also says a regular Mass; which is almost never. Rite of Election is Only the Rite of Election with the Bishop, Only, without Mass, in my Traditional Booming Diocese.

Questions about dismissal of catechumens in the OCA would best be asked in the Non-Catholic Religions section.

The Rite of Election, normally the first Sunday in Great Lent, ends the Period of the Catechumenate. The Catechumen are now “the Elect” and the Period of Purification and Enlightenment begins now for these elect. The Rite of Election is not a Mass therefore there is no dismissal since there is no Liturgy of the Eucharist.

As happens every Sunday in the parish where I have served on the RCIA team for years our catechumens with members of their RCIA team were dismissed yesterday to Break Open the Word. We follow the National Statues for the Catechumenate as do the other parishes of the Latin Church in this Diocese and else where in the United States.

And as mentioned before **if there are no catechumens attending a Mass with their RCIA group **

then naturally no one is going to be dismissed.

Again, dismissals occur only in the specific Sunday Mass where the RCIA group attends. There is no dismissal in Masses where the RCIA group is not in attendance. And again all of this applies to the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, not the Extraordinary Form. Again, your parish priest may chosen to do other than what is set out by the US Bishops for the RCIA process in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, then he has deviated from those norms practiced across the US.

I have not addressed the Catechumenate as it occurs in Eastern Catholic parishes, nor in Orthodox parishes. Those obviously are not covered by the Rites and the National Statues for the Catechumenate from the US Bishops.

 

[5Loaves]

I looked at my guide and asked her if I had to leave and she said no.

I know of a local Orthodox monastery where Catholics are to leave at the “Catechumens, depart!”. I asked the priests at the Orthodox parishes where I attend if they preferred I leave at that point and they did not.

 

[TrueLight]

I know of a local Orthodox monastery where Catholics are to leave at the “Catechumens, depart!”. I asked the priests at the Orthodox parishes where I attend if they preferred I leave at that point and they did not.

Oh my goodness. Ha ha!

 

[Hesychios]

It was Patriarch Alexy (Memory Eternal) that had some notable German ancestry (possibly also Swedish or other as well, considering the history of the Baltic region).

 

[Hesychios]

Hi True

I attended a Divine Liturgy on a Sunday at an OCA Church/parish (I’m not sure of the correct term).

Temple would work, although we often refer to parishes, I don’t know how correct that is. I prefer temple.

So at some point, and I don’t remember whether it was the deacon or priest, who sang out something like “Let all the Catechumens depart”. I know 5Loaves quoted the actual text. I looked at my guide and asked her if I had to leave and she said no. I didn’t notice whether anyone left or not.

That’s all I know. It was all new to me and not totally clear.

"All ye catechumens, depart! Depart, ye catechumens! All ye that are catechumens, depart! Let no catechumens remain! But let us who are of the faithful, again and again, in peace pray to the Lord. … "

I suppose it has already been discussed to death, but that is an ancient practice. Non Christians did not typically witness the Sacred mysteries in the early church, and new believers still learning the Faith were not allowed to stay beyond that point, when the doors were barred.

It was true generally across the whole church, east and west the same.

I had the exact same question for my first visit to an Orthodox church, I asked the priest afterward if I was supposed to have absented myself and he said “no” That call from the deacon marks the end of the “liturgy of the Catechumens”

Essentially, at that point the catechumens (who were not able to receive the sacred mysteries in any case) could study and continue to prepare themselves (out in the narthex or elsewhere nearby) for their eventual baptism.

Anyway, today it certainly serves as a vivid reminder of our not-so very distant past origins in the early church.

 

[Hesychios]

Me too.

Reducing the big issues to a common ethnic tie is unflattering to both parties. But since the Orthodox are usually portayed these days as stubborn and unreasonable, it might make sense to to some parties to assume that something as shallow and meaningless as some perceived ethnic tie would lubricate the gears of change. Pope Benedict and the Patriarch of Moscow are both too professional and too serious about religion to sell the farm for such a trivial reason.

But the fact is, the late patriarch’s German ancestry entered the Baltic lands under the Swedish monarchy a few hundred years ago, he was not born in Germany, but in Estonia, and probably had a very mixed ancestral heritage by the time he was born.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Hesychios, Catechumens were forbidden to Witness the Consecration in the Catacombs, Earliest Church. The Sacredness of the Consecration by Christ was known in the second Century… The Principal Orthodox Negotiator of Ravenna, the Metroplitan Theology Chairman at Oxford or Cambridge is who commented Then that the Pope and Russian Orthox Patriarch are both “German”, making Communion more culturally readily negotiable and possible. But the Patriarch has Passed.
I for one have never heard the Orthodox as stubborn or unreasonable; I've heard one question the 90 Minute Traditional Divine Liturgy; I answered Keep the powerful tradition, and don't change fully to English, IMO.

 

[TrueLight]

Okay, so now that I have received first Holy communion, I am about ready to attend my first Vespers in the Eastern Catholic Church.

I have two churches in mind. Which would you recommend for first time attending vespers. Would both have identical liturgies?

Thanks.

St Michael’s_Russian (no pews)

St George- Ukrainian (pews)

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Okay, so now that I have received first Holy communion, I am about ready to attend my first Vespers in the Eastern Catholic Church.

I have two churches in mind. Which would you recommend for first time attending vespers. Would both have identical liturgies?

Thanks.

St Michael’s_Russian (no pews)

St George- Ukrainian (pews)

I’d go with whichever one is closer, personally. They both have identical liturgies- The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. And they likely have similar small “t” traditions (if I am wrong, my UGCC friends, please correct me!).

In any case just go and absorb. If you can, try and sing along. Keep your head out of the bulletin (I had a hard time doing that- Lutherans never follow something that isn’t in the bulletin ), and focus on what is going on. If you can, stand by someone who is willing to help you throughout. Wear comfy shoes

Other than that, I have no advice for you. Just go and experience- “Christ is in our midst!”

 

[TrueLight]

I’d go with whichever one is closer, personally. They both have identical liturgies- The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. And they likely have similar small “t” traditions (if I am wrong, my UGCC friends, please correct me!).

In any case just go and absorb. If you can, try and sing along. Keep your head out of the bulletin (I had a hard time doing that- Lutherans never follow something that isn’t in the bulletin ), and focus on what is going on. If you can, stand by someone who is willing to help you throughout. Wear comfy shoes

Other than that, I have no advice for you. Just go and experience- “Christ is in our midst!”

Thanks for the advice! Of course I will try to sing along even if I am fumbling. I love to sing!

I know. I have to check if they are English language.