Fish Eaters on the beginings of the Charismatic Movement

[Brian777]

I realize that this is in theory not the right forum for this question, but it is probably the only forum where misjudgement of my intentions in posting this will be at a minimum. I will start off first saying that I have very little experience with the Charismatic Movement, but some of my fellow seminarians are more familiar with it. I also am fully aware that our Holy Father has encouraged the movement.

All that being said…according to Fish Eaters.com, written and upkept by catholics in full communion with Rome, the charismatic renewal apparently has some dubious if not right out heretical beginings…the article is A “Catholic” Charismatic Extravaganza. I would quote, but the link is now broken as geocities is no longer available, but i have read the article before. In short it claims that the movement really began when Catholics felt called to seek the Spirit(sounds good) but they apparently went to a pentacostal service and had the minister breathe on them and call down the spirit on them. The article says that of course this was unecessary because the Catholcis had been confirmed, and of course ironioc because the Pentecostals would not have the Spirit, being outside the True Church.

Now, today the movenment is increasingly more and more solidly Catholic, i mean take one look at Franciscan University of Stuebenville and you see that very clearly, solidly Catholic and orthodox, but also very charismatic, or atleast charismatic-ish. So if this claim is true, then it really doesnt matter today because orthodoxy has returned to the movement, but I was just curious as to if it had any truth to it at all.

PS…A direction to the appropriate forum would aslo be greatly appreciated.

 

[Carlan]

I realize that this is in theory not the right forum for this question, but it is probably the only forum where misjudgement of my intentions in posting this will be at a minimum. I will start off first saying that I have very little experience with the Charismatic Movement, but some of my fellow seminarians are more familiar with it. I also am fully aware that our Holy Father has encouraged the movement.

All that being said…according to Fish Eaters.com, written and upkept by catholics in full communion with Rome, the charismatic renewal apparently has some dubious if not right out heretical beginings…the article is A “Catholic” Charismatic Extravaganza. I would quote, but the link is now broken as geocities is no longer available, but i have read the article before. In short it claims that the movement really began when Catholics felt called to seek the Spirit(sounds good) but they apparently went to a pentacostal service and had the minister breathe on them and call down the spirit on them. The article says that of course this was unecessary because the Catholcis had been confirmed, and of course ironioc because the Pentecostals would not have the Spirit, being outside the True Church.

Now, today the movenment is increasingly more and more solidly Catholic, i mean take one look at Franciscan University of Stuebenville and you see that very clearly, solidly Catholic and orthodox, but also very charismatic, or atleast charismatic-ish. So if this claim is true, then it really doesnt matter today because orthodoxy has returned to the movement, but I was just curious as to if it had any truth to it at all.

PS…A direction to the appropriate forum would aslo be greatly appreciated.

Hi Brian , Since God works in many mysterious ways, in the end,does it really matter how he brings about an extra outpouring of the Holy Spirit? Carlan

 

[Joe_5859]

I would just point out that FishEaters is not an unbiased source for info on the Charismatic movement. Catholic Culture gives their website a red “danger rating” (click here for the full review). They have a lot of good stuff, but they also veer off into “more-Catholic-than-the-Pope” territory, especially when it comes to anything that has happened in the Church since Vatican II (such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement).

I should disclose that I do not identify myself as a “Charismatic”, but I have close friends who do, and I have been exposed to various charismatic goings on. If you trust FishEaters as a source, you should at least try to balance out their perspective by reading a first-hand account from Patti Gallagher-Mansfield. She was there at Duquesne in 1967 when the whole thing got started. Here is her account of that experience on her website: ccrno.org/TestimonyPGM.htm

I would trust the fact that the recent popes have all affirmed the Charismatic Movement over what a non-ecclesially approved Catholic website says about them.

 

[amgp]

I would trust the fact that the recent popes have all affirmed the Charismatic Movement

What do you mean by “affirmed”? Are there official papal documents written regarding the “affirmation” or approval of the charismatic movement and the practices of its members? Is there official documentation that any pope has publicly displayed charismatic practices or behavior?

Please don’t anybody take offense, but I ask these questions because I’ve never seen any such documentation. I’ve only seen a copy of a certificate on the internet where JPII greeted some charismatic members at one of his Wednesday audiences.

The following article points to what several popes have said about the charismatic movement:

christianorder.com/features/features_2000/features_feb00.html

 

[JaMc]

Even though Fish Eaters may be maintained by Catholics in full communion with Rome, they are not an unbiased source by a longshot. They approach things with a very definite, traditionalist point of view, which tends to view the charismatic movement in a negative light.

That’s not necessarily negative, it’s just a fact. It’s like, if I want a straight, unbiased view of President Obama, I won’t tune in Rush Limbaugh, and if I want a straight, unbiased view of former President Bush, I won’t tune in Janeane Garofalo. But, if I want to know what conservatives dislike about Obama’s policies, or what liberals disliked about Bush’s policies, those would be appropriate sources.

 

[Layman]

**I think it would be nice if some authority defined, exactly, what the signs were of a true visitation by the Holy Ghost. **

Babbling disjointedly, falling over, having ‘feelings’ don’t seem particularly useful to me. That also happens at rock concerts and Voudoo ceremonies.

 

[Carlan]

**I think it would be nice if some authority defined, exactly, what the signs were of a true visitation by the Holy Ghost. **

Babbling disjointedly, falling over, having ‘feelings’ don’t seem particularly useful to me. That also happens at rock concerts and Voudoo ceremonies.

Yes Layman, ***but ***for those who experience different ways and answers to their prayer than we do. It does say, He works in mysterious ways:shrug::yup:God bless, Carlan

 

[Joe_5859]

What do you mean by “affirmed”? Are there official papal documents written regarding the “affirmation” or approval of the charismatic movement and the practices of its members? Is there official documentation that any pope has publicly displayed charismatic practices or behavior?

Please don’t anybody take offense, but I ask these questions because I’ve never seen any such documentation. I’ve only seen a copy of a certificate on the internet where JPII greeted some charismatic members at one of his Wednesday audiences.

The following article points to what several popes have said about the charismatic movement:

christianorder.com/features/features_2000/features_feb00.html

Here are some links to what the recent popes have said in regards to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement (CCRM):

• Address of Pope Benedict XVI to Participants in a Meeting Organized by the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships (October 31, 2008)
• Message of John Paul II to the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships (November 7, 2002)
• Message of John Paul II to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (April 24, 2000)
• Address of John Paul II to the Participants in the International Conference for Catholic Charismatic Leaders (October 30, 1998)
• Message of John Paul II to the Participants in the 8th International Meeting of the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships (June 1, 1998)
• Address of John Paul II to the Council of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Office (March 14, 1992)
• Address of John Paul II to the Participants of the Sixth International Assembly of the Charismatic Renewal (May 15, 1987)

There are many other addresses as well. I just picked the first seven from a search of the Vatican website for the word “charismatic”. You are correct that most if not all of these are simply addresses to gatherings of Charismatics. I’m not sure what else to expect, though. It’s not as though the Pope would issue a motu proprio just to affirm a Catholic renewal movement. But if the CCRM was doing something wrong, he would probably speak up (as he did with the Neocatechumenal Way).

Of course, these affirmations aren’t meant to imply that all Catholics have to be a part of this movement. It is simply an acknowledgment of the good that is being done.

 

[corsair]

I am not into the Charismatic “thingy” at all. But I have nothing against those who do. Just not “my bag”

Had a couple of sons who were interested for awhile. One has since become an agnostic and the other has returned to a more “conventional” style of Catholic worship.

I, on the other hand, have gone WAY over to the EF Mass. The boys think I’m a little radical. So be it.

As for the FE web site… I really like them and see nothing wrong there. Seriously, there are just as many “nuts” on this site as on ANY forum.

 

[Malkin71]

I realize that this is in theory not the right forum for this question, but it is probably the only forum where misjudgement of my intentions in posting this will be at a minimum. I will start off first saying that I have very little experience with the Charismatic Movement, but some of my fellow seminarians are more familiar with it. I also am fully aware that our Holy Father has encouraged the movement.

All that being said…according to Fish Eaters.com, written and upkept by catholics in full communion with Rome, the charismatic renewal apparently has some dubious if not right out heretical beginings…the article is A “Catholic” Charismatic Extravaganza. I would quote, but the link is now broken as geocities is no longer available, but i have read the article before. In short it claims that the movement really began when Catholics felt called to seek the Spirit(sounds good) but they apparently went to a pentacostal service and had the minister breathe on them and call down the spirit on them. The article says that of course this was unecessary because the Catholcis had been confirmed, and of course ironioc because the Pentecostals would not have the Spirit, being outside the True Church.

Now, today the movenment is increasingly more and more solidly Catholic, i mean take one look at Franciscan University of Stuebenville and you see that very clearly, solidly Catholic and orthodox, but also very charismatic, or atleast charismatic-ish. So if this claim is true, then it really doesnt matter today because orthodoxy has returned to the movement, but I was just curious as to if it had any truth to it at all.

PS…A direction to the appropriate forum would aslo be greatly appreciated.

I am not into the Charasmatic thing beacuse of the Pentecostal movement traits with it. Falling on the ground, making pig like sounds, etc. I got into a discussion with this with my neighbor who was in to it. She was telling me I am wrong, I am too young to know about it, etc… But again this is from somone who’s sister was a Nun her son was a Priest…Both left to get Married and are no longer with the Catholic Church. Also, this is the same person who said that we should not let Rome tell us what to do! Also, she believes in innovations to the Mass and Liturgical Abuses.

Go figure.

I would like an Excercists opinion on the movement.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

I am not into the Charasmatic thing beacuse of the Pentecostal movement traits with it. Falling on the ground, making pig like sounds, etc. I got into a discussion with this with my neighbor who was in to it. She was telling me I am wrong, I am too young to know about it, etc… But again this is from somone who’s sister was a Nun her son was a Priest…Both left to get Married and are no longer with the Catholic Church. Also, this is the same person who said that we should not let Rome tell us what to do! Also, she believes in innovations to the Mass and Liturgical Abuses.

Go figure.

I would like an Excercists opinion on the movement.

Agreed.

Be wary of the charismatic renewal. It’s one thing to get excited about God, it’s completely another to do some of the garbage these people find “excuses” to do.

Fisheaters, I would assume is most likely on target with a lot of their information. They will tell you if something reeks of New Age. Many New Agers use the term “charismatic renewal” to lead people off the deep end. Some even end up literally getting possessed by demons, because they want to try all kinds of “new” things…which of course aren’t knew. There’s a reason why the Church doesn’t use them.

 

[JustaServant]

Demonic possession is certainly a danger. Keep in mind also that many people with mental health issues are attracted to these kinds of groups.

 

[Brian777]

I would just point out that FishEaters is not an unbiased source for info on the Charismatic movement. Catholic Culture gives their website a red “danger rating” (click here for the full review). They have a lot of good stuff, but they also veer off into “more-Catholic-than-the-Pope” territory, especially when it comes to anything that has happened in the Church since Vatican II (such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement).

I should disclose that I do not identify myself as a “Charismatic”, but I have close friends who do, and I have been exposed to various charismatic goings on. If you trust FishEaters as a source, you should at least try to balance out their perspective by reading a first-hand account from Patti Gallagher-Mansfield. She was there at Duquesne in 1967 when the whole thing got started. Here is her account of that experience on her website: ccrno.org/TestimonyPGM.htm

I would trust the fact that the recent popes have all affirmed the Charismatic Movement over what a non-ecclesially approved Catholic website says about them.

I will sya, that that testimony sounds solidly Catholic, especially the fact the she claims she recieved her spiritual Baptism in the Holy Ghost whilst praying before the Blessed Sacrament at the Retreat house’s chapel. Bu that doesn’t excuse this part about some other Catholics and their experience…

“In January 1967, four Catholics from Duquesne attended their first interdenominational charismatic prayer meeting – the Chapel Hill meeting – in the home of Miss Flo Dodge, a Spirit-filled Presbyterian…The people from Duquesne were impressed with what they witnessed there. On January 20, two of the men returned. They received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and began to manifest charismatic gifts. They returned home to pray with the other two who had not attended that night.”

so we still have the problem that some Catholics were recieving this from Protestants(who again, though of course guided by the Holy Ghost ever closer to the True Faith, do not posses Him in such a way as to impart Him or his gifts, particulalry to Catholics who already have Him as a result of the Sacrament of Confirmation. Seems to hold up rather well to the article linked on Fish Eaters…though again the host site is unavailable as of now…

Of course ultimately it doesnt really matter, as long as the movement now has become solidly Catholic, as many of its adherents are, though of course some very mush so are not. But of course the same holds very true in Traditional Catholicism as well…SSPV, Siriites, etc.

 

[Onegin]

I’m not a fan of the charismatic movement. But then again, I went to Franciscan University, so I guess I’m just biased from having been exposed to it so much.

However, I do find it telling that a Pentacostal friend (upon attending a charismatic Mass at Franciscan) remarked on how “shockingly similar” it was to her own Pentacostal services. If melding with the Pentacostal movement is what the Catholic charismatic movement is trying to achieve, they seem to be succeeding.

 

[Lainey63]

If the Charismatic movement is accepted by the Catholic Church then I would think it doesn’t matter to those who are opposed to it. That would just be their opinion. One doesn’t have to be Charismatic. I did go to a Charismatic healing Mass once and I didn’t care for it at all. I too know some who are Charismatic and they don’t come across as mentally instable to me at all, especially the priests that I know are more drawn to Charismatic.

One thing I do admire about charismatics is their ability to pray from the heart in their own words at a moments notice. I can’t do that. I pretty much stick to the Rosary, Litanies etc.

 

[Madaglan]

I realize that this is in theory not the right forum for this question, but it is probably the only forum where misjudgement of my intentions in posting this will be at a minimum. I will start off first saying that I have very little experience with the Charismatic Movement, but some of my fellow seminarians are more familiar with it. I also am fully aware that our Holy Father has encouraged the movement.

All that being said…according to Fish Eaters.com, written and upkept by catholics in full communion with Rome, the charismatic renewal apparently has some dubious if not right out heretical beginings…the article is A “Catholic” Charismatic Extravaganza. I would quote, but the link is now broken as geocities is no longer available, but i have read the article before. In short it claims that the movement really began when Catholics felt called to seek the Spirit(sounds good) but they apparently went to a pentacostal service and had the minister breathe on them and call down the spirit on them. The article says that of course this was unecessary because the Catholcis had been confirmed, and of course ironioc because the Pentecostals would not have the Spirit, being outside the True Church.

Now, today the movenment is increasingly more and more solidly Catholic, i mean take one look at Franciscan University of Stuebenville and you see that very clearly, solidly Catholic and orthodox, but also very charismatic, or atleast charismatic-ish. So if this claim is true, then it really doesnt matter today because orthodoxy has returned to the movement, but I was just curious as to if it had any truth to it at all.

PS…A direction to the appropriate forum would aslo be greatly appreciated.

What I have read is that the Charismatic Movement has the official approval and promotion of Rome. However, there are no decisions as to the validity of the special charisms (e.g. speaking in tongues). In other words, Rome says, great, continue growing in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but is cautious about passing judgment on things like glossalia, being slain in the spirit, prophetic utterances, etc.

I briefly was involved in the charismatic movement (got “baptized in the Spirit” at the end of it). The people were, until that point in my life, the most devout Catholics I had known. They prayed to Mary and the saints, prayed the Rosary, read spiritual books, spent time reading the Scripture every day, and interceded for friends, family and strangers. They showed only obedience to the bishop and the Pope of Rome. There were just a few things I found odd–speaking in tongues and a tendency to see the Protestants as a source of spiritual inspiration (“we have a lot to learn from the Protestants,” as one member said). So, the people were great, and most of the practices were great; it was just the small potion that I was like whoa, I have to be really careful about this.

 

[bkovacs]

I would just point out that FishEaters is not an unbiased source for info on the Charismatic movement. Catholic Culture gives their website a red “danger rating” (click here for the full review). They have a lot of good stuff, but they also veer off into “more-Catholic-than-the-Pope” territory, especially when it comes to anything that has happened in the Church since Vatican II (such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement).

I should disclose that I do not identify myself as a “Charismatic”, but I have close friends who do, and I have been exposed to various charismatic goings on. If you trust FishEaters as a source, you should at least try to balance out their perspective by reading a first-hand account from Patti Gallagher-Mansfield. She was there at Duquesne in 1967 when the whole thing got started. Here is her account of that experience on her website: ccrno.org/TestimonyPGM.htm

I would trust the fact that the recent popes have all affirmed the Charismatic Movement over what a non-ecclesially approved Catholic website says about them.

And Catholic Culture.com is the pinnacle of Catholicism!. Can’t seem to find anything on Catholic Culture.com about the Extra-Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. Guess we should red flag it!.

As for the Charismatic Movement. I really don’t see how it is all that Catholic. To me it seems more Pentecostal than anything else. My opinion!.

 

[Madaglan]

And Catholic Culture.com is the pinnacle of Catholicism!. Can’t seem to find anything on Catholic Culture.com about the Extra-Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. Guess we should red flag it!.

As for the Charismatic Movement. I really don’t see how it is all that Catholic. To me it seems more Pentecostal than anything else. My opinion!.

Yeah, and I can’t figure out how CatholicCulture.com can give Catholic Answers a Green so long as I’m posting here.

I was surprised to see TAN books on the green list. The review does mention that the site is “marred” by the inclusion of a few books attacking the new Mass, but in the weakness section there is nothing included.

 

[Cristiano]

And Catholic Culture.com is the pinnacle of Catholicism!. Can’t seem to find anything on Catholic Culture.com about the Extra-Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. Guess we should red flag it!.

As for the Charismatic Movement. I really don’t see how it is all that Catholic. To me it seems more Pentecostal than anything else. My opinion!.

Strange I always thought that Pentecost and the Holy Spirit are part of the beliefs of the Catholic Church. Well I guess that now I can only venerate Mary, or maybe not because it is worship?

 

[Brian777]

Strange I always thought that Pentecost and the Holy Spirit are part of the beliefs of the Catholic Church. Well I guess that now I can only venerate Mary, or maybe not because it is worship?

of course they are, no one says they are’nt

The event that brought the Apostles into their fulness of the priesthood 200 years ago must be seperated from the denomination that spawned in the 20th century, that’s all.