Fish Eaters on the beginings of the Charismatic Movement

[JKirkLVNV]

I mistrust what I’ve seen about the Charismatic movement because (and this is only anectdotal) it seems to me to be more about the gifts than the Giver (just my opinion). That said, I try to take Gamaliel’s attitude “If this be of man, it will come to naught, but if it be of God, ye will not be able to overthrow it, lest perhaps ye be found even to fight against God.”

Of course, that’s GENERALLY my attitude to the SSPX and many others claiming to be “traditionalists,” as well.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

And Catholic Culture.com is the pinnacle of Catholicism!. Can’t seem to find anything on Catholic Culture.com about the Extra-Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. Guess we should red flag it!.

As for the Charismatic Movement. I really don’t see how it is all that Catholic. To me it seems more Pentecostal than anything else. My opinion!.

I’m not sure what how you looked or how deeply you looked, but CC has written with great enthusiasm regarding the EF.

 

[graceandglory]

I briefly was involved in the charismatic movement (got “baptized in the Spirit” at the end of it). The people were, until that point in my life, the most devout Catholics I had known. .

This to me is where the Charismatic Movement goes off the deep end and steps outside of orthodoxy. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit when we are Confirmed. It’s a Sacrament. When people tried praying over me and shouting in tongues for me to “Receive the Holy Spirit” (which of course would be “manifested by my speaking in tongues”), I held fast to the knowledge that I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at my Catholic Confirmation when I was 13.

I don’t believe anyone can come forth with Catholic teaching that “okays” this “8th Sacrament.” And btw, “who performs” this laying on of hands? A priest? :nope:
This is where protestantism has affected the Movement, and the Movement is outside of orthodox Catholicity.

 

[graceandglory]

What I have read is that the Charismatic Movement has the official approval and promotion of Rome. However, there are no decisions as to the validity of the special charisms (e.g. speaking in tongues). In other words, Rome says, great, continue growing in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but is cautious about passing judgment on things like glossalia, being slain in the spirit, prophetic utterances, etc…

As it should be. Miracles are on a case by case basis.

Let’s look to the Catechism to see what the Sacrament of the Holy Spirit looks like.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a2.htm

 

[graceandglory]

Strange I always thought that Pentecost and the Holy Spirit are part of the beliefs of the Catholic Church. Well I guess that now I can only venerate Mary, or maybe not because it is worship?

Cristiano, have you been Confirmed as a Catholic?

Please read up on what the Catholic Church teaches about Pentecost and the Holy Spirit.
This should have been a part of your Confirmation Prep.
We believe in miracles, when they are truly miracles.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a2.htm

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I would just point out that FishEaters is not an unbiased source for info on the Charismatic movement. Catholic Culture gives their website a red “danger rating” (click here for the full review). They have a lot of good stuff, but they also veer off into “more-Catholic-than-the-Pope” territory, especially when it comes to anything that has happened in the Church since Vatican II (such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement).

I should disclose that I do not identify myself as a “Charismatic”, but I have close friends who do, and I have been exposed to various charismatic goings on. If you trust FishEaters as a source, you should at least try to balance out their perspective by reading a first-hand account from Patti Gallagher-Mansfield. She was there at Duquesne in 1967 when the whole thing got started. Here is her account of that experience on her website: ccrno.org/TestimonyPGM.htm

I would trust the fact that the recent popes have all affirmed the Charismatic Movement over what a non-ecclesially approved Catholic website says about them.

The link you provided to balance out the FE article only confirms it.

 

[PaulinVA]

My wife and I met in the seventies in college at a charismatic prayer group.

Yes, it was emotional. Yes, it was spiritual. Yes, it had a tinge of protestantism to it. I had been involved at home before college as well. It is different, that’s for sure.

We have not been involved in things charismatic for a long time. Once, we visited the prayer group at our local parish, but it seemed to be “old” by then. You know, we’d already done that and moved on. It is a renewal movement, after all. Get renewed and move on. The kicker was when they gave us “temporary” name tags to wear and wouldn’t give us the "permanent’ ones until they were sure we were “committed”. We laughed and didn’t go back.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I realize that this is in theory not the right forum for this question, but it is probably the only forum where misjudgement of my intentions in posting this will be at a minimum. I will start off first saying that I have very little experience with the Charismatic Movement, but some of my fellow seminarians are more familiar with it. I also am fully aware that our Holy Father has encouraged the movement.

All that being said…according to Fish Eaters.com, written and upkept by catholics in full communion with Rome, the charismatic renewal apparently has some dubious if not right out heretical beginings…the article is A “Catholic” Charismatic Extravaganza. I would quote, but the link is now broken as geocities is no longer available, but i have read the article before. In short it claims that the movement really began when Catholics felt called to seek the Spirit(sounds good) but they apparently went to a pentacostal service and had the minister breathe on them and call down the spirit on them. The article says that of course this was unecessary because the Catholcis had been confirmed, and of course ironioc because the Pentecostals would not have the Spirit, being outside the True Church.

Now, today the movenment is increasingly more and more solidly Catholic, i mean take one look at Franciscan University of Stuebenville and you see that very clearly, solidly Catholic and orthodox, but also very charismatic, or atleast charismatic-ish. So if this claim is true, then it really doesnt matter today because orthodoxy has returned to the movement, but I was just curious as to if it had any truth to it at all.

PS…A direction to the appropriate forum would aslo be greatly appreciated.

I have been to a women’s charismatic service one time. i didnt care for it. it was the same as going to assemblies of God services. the music was very annoying to me. the way they conduct themselves, very emotional and they kept repeating the same thing over and over as if they trying to hypnotize people.

i dont understand how the popes support this kind of movement, because i know people who are part of this movement and they make no difference between the CC and protestant religions. they see no difference. this is because they are not being tought the CC Faith. to them is all the same. i heard sometime ago, father groeschel saying that priests are not the only who can consagrate the Bread and wine. i used to watch father groeschel all the time but not anymore, i have heard him saying to many things against the Catholics. he never said one thing against protestants and martin luther, the contrary he always defend martin luther. he said another time: he would take a lutheran any day before taking a Catholic. i find him somewhat anti Catholic. and he is the one who started this movement. i saw one of his Mass, and i was not impressed. i honor him as a priest and respect as a priest but i would not be involved with his movement. any way i got tired of hearing his nasty remarks towards Catholics.

those involved in this movement, at least the ones i know, hate the Latin Mass. they get crazy just when we mention it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

My wife and I met in the seventies in college at a charismatic prayer group.

Yes, it was emotional. Yes, it was spiritual. Yes, it had a tinge of protestantism to it. I had been involved at home before college as well. It is different, that’s for sure.

We have not been involved in things charismatic for a long time. Once, we visited the prayer group at our local parish, but it seemed to be “old” by then. You know, we’d already done that and moved on. It is a renewal movement, after all. Get renewed and move on. The kicker was when they gave us “temporary” name tags to wear and wouldn’t give us the "permanent’ ones until they were sure we were “committed”. We laughed and didn’t go back.

Even as someone who looks rather askance at the charismatic movement, I think we need to be careful in our terminology. Unless something is actually a “protest” against the Church, it isn’t Protestantism nor tinged with it. If you go to a meeting the focus is denouncing the Catholic Church, that’s protestant. Glossalalia (sp, I’m sure) isn’t protestant per se, nor is emotion, etc. Some of our saints experienced many of the same phenomena or at least phenomena of an equally inexplicable nature (St. Teresa of Avila had to grip the communion rail to keep from levitating, IIRC).

 

[JKirkLVNV]

those involved in this movement, at least the ones i know, hate the Latin Mass. they get crazy just when we mention it.

How do they “get crazy?” I know a lot of Catholics who grew up with the Latin Mass and they don’t care for it, much prefering what we now call the OF. They are no less Catholics. One’s opinion of the Latin Mass is not a litmus test of one’s orthodoxy or Catholicity, anymore than one’s preference for it might be a sign of sedevacanteism.

 

[PaulinVA]

Even as someone who looks rather askance at the charismatic movement, I think we need to be careful in our terminology. Unless something is actually a “protest” against the Church, it isn’t Protestantism nor tinged with it. If you go to a meeting the focus is denouncing the Catholic Church, that’s protestant. Glossalalia (sp, I’m sure) isn’t protestant per se, nor is emotion, etc. Some of our saints experienced many of the same phenomena or at least phenomena of an equally inexplicable nature (St. Teresa of Avila had to grip the communion rail to keep from levitating, IIRC).

Well, if I go somewhere where people believe that the elect are predestined, and I identify that as Calvinist, then yes, it is tinged with protestantism. (not saying charismatics are Calvinist,; just an example) Protestantism is a movement in religious thought that encompasses Zwingli, Luther, Calvin, and a host of others. Modern day protestants aren’t necessarily protesting against the Catholic Church - they subscribe to a system of belief and worship. That is what I was referring to.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well, if I go somewhere where people believe that the elect are predestined, and I identify that as Calvinist, then yes, it is tinged with protestantism. (not saying charismatics are Calvinist,; just an example) Protestantism is a movement in religious thought that encompasses Zwingli, Luther, Calvin, and a host of others. Modern day protestants aren’t necessarily protesting against the Catholic Church - they subscribe to a system of belief and worship. That is what I was referring to.

I’m aware of Protestantism encompasses. I was refering to a tendency to regard things that are not overtly (for want of a better word) Roman Catholic as being ipso facto Protestant (communion in the hand, for example, is not of itself Protestant, though some Protestants practice it). If I misread you, I apologize.

Also, the Church teaches the predestination of the elect…we just don’t teach the wrong version!

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

 

[Cristiano]

Cristiano, have you been Confirmed as a Catholic?

Please read up on what the Catholic Church teaches about Pentecost and the Holy Spirit.
This should have been a part of your Confirmation Prep.
We believe in miracles, when they are truly miracles.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a2.htm

Yes I have been confirmed, and I teach CCD. My point ( I guess that people missed the sarcasm) was that people are so afraid of being taken over by the Holy Spirit that they would rather deny His impact on people by calling Him “not so” Catholic. What the people experienced at Pentecost was not the quiet and somber experience that we usually experience at Mass. It must have been a real shocker. Do Catholics really believe in the Holy Spirit, sometime I have the impression that they would rather not think about Him? I think that the Eastern Orthodox faithfuls might have a better theological grasp (except for the filioque).

 

[Flame_of_Christ]

with regard to the Charismatic Renewal being protestant, we should realize that all that protestants hold as true are not heresies. They believe that Jesus died for our sins. They believe that Jesus is the son of God, the Savior, etc. If I accept those teachings into my heart from a protestant preacher, I have not fallen into any heresy at all. Nevertheless, there are things in protestatnism that are false. What I am pointing at is that this is not a black and white issue. We can learn some things from protestants. But anything that they realize that is true, is in itself a catholic truth, or should I say, a universal truth. It is not a black and white issue my dear brothers and sisters.

 

[graceandglory]

with regard to the Charismatic Renewal being protestant, we should realize that all that protestants hold as true are not heresies. They believe that Jesus died for our sins. They believe that Jesus is the son of God, the Savior, etc. If I accept those teachings into my heart from a protestant preacher, I have not fallen into any heresy at all. Nevertheless, there are things in protestatnism that are false. What I am pointing at is that this is not a black and white issue. We can learn some things from protestants. But anything that they realize that is true, is in itself a catholic truth, or should I say, a universal truth. It is not a black and white issue my dear brothers and sisters.

Two people can be talking of the charismatic movement and be thinking two totally different things in their head. All truth is God’s truth, and even our protestant brothers and sisters get it right*** most*** of the time. That’s why they are our ***separated brethren. ***

Hold fast to that which is true.

 

[Brian777]

i heard sometime ago, father groeschel saying that priests are not the only who can consagrate the Bread and wine. i used to watch father groeschel all the time but not anymore, i have heard him saying to many things against the Catholics. he never said one thing against protestants and martin luther, the contrary he always defend martin luther. he said another time: he would take a lutheran any day before taking a Catholic. i find him somewhat anti Catholic. and he is the one who started this movement. i saw one of his Mass, and i was not impressed. i honor him as a priest and respect as a priest but i would not be involved with his movement. any way i got tired of hearing his nasty remarks towards Catholics.

Father Benedict Groeshel? you must be confusing hime with another FFR, he, and that community, are solidly catholic and featured prominently on EWTN, where he rightly takes shots at bad catholics and especially at “Catholic” higher education. You may have simply heard him at the wrong moment or out of context.

 

[Brian777]

All truth is God’s truth, and even our protestant brothers and sisters get it right*** most*** of the time. That’s why they are our ***separated brethren. ***

um…they have the basics right, yes…but most of the time? Anglicans and Episcopalians:75% percent perhaps a little higher, maybe even 90-95% if they are the Traditional branches, but most protestant communities get maybe 50% or less on an orthodoxy test.

also important to note that the SSPX and other Traditionalist groups would be about the same as Anglicans, perhaps a little lower depending on what degree of sedevacantism they adhere to.

 

[Malkin71]

with regard to the Charismatic Renewal being protestant, we should realize that all that protestants hold as true are not heresies. They believe that Jesus died for our sins. They believe that Jesus is the son of God, the Savior, etc. If I accept those teachings into my heart from a protestant preacher, I have not fallen into any heresy at all. Nevertheless, there are things in protestatnism that are false. What I am pointing at is that this is not a black and white issue. We can learn some things from protestants. But anything that they realize that is true, is in itself a catholic truth, or should I say, a universal truth. It is not a black and white issue my dear brothers and sisters.

Protestatnisms are heresies! They are not a true Church. Benedict himself said that they are a community. They do not have Apostolic Succesion! I am sorry if the Carismatic was founded by a Presybeterian, They are not Catholic!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Father Benedict Groeshel? you must be confusing hime with another FFR, he, and that community, are solidly catholic and featured prominently on EWTN, where he rightly takes shots at bad catholics and especially at “Catholic” higher education. You may have simply heard him at the wrong moment or out of context.

May be but that is what i heard. since then i dont watch him any more.

 

[PaulAndrew83]

Firstly there is nothing wrong in fish eaters. Since when does catholic culture gain authority to red flag sites — LOL.

Secondly Charistmatic Catholics started in a protestant meeting. This is all we need really.

Paul