Five hundred lay people echo priests’ plea to stand firm on Communion for the remarried

[Brendan_64]

To me, the only one’s who can discern if a marriage was valid or not, is the couple themselves with pastoral guidance.

So now the couple decide? It gets even easier. So any couple who want an annulment can get it, they just get some ‘pastoral advice’ from their local parish priest, and then they decide, “Yes, our marriage is invalid”, and the priest grants an annulment?

This approach is all about enabling people to get the result they want, and not about properly investigating and discerning whether the marriage actually was a marriage in the eyes of God. This approach is based around Man and giving him what he desires in this world.

 

[Brendan]

To me, the only one’s who can discern if a marriage was valid or not, is the couple themselves with pastoral guidance.

Well, validity is determined by the event itself. So what you suggest can be accomplished by asking them right after the wedding ceremony. They can then let the presider know if their marriage was valid

This could potentially save quite a bit of time and anguish later down the road if the couple just determined validity right then and there.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, validity is determined by the event itself. So what you suggest can be accomplished by asking them right after the wedding ceremony. They can then let the presider know if their marriage was valid

This could potentially save quite a bit of time and anguish later down the road if the couple just determined validity right then and there.

A valid marriage isn’t determined by the event in of itself, but what took place between the couple.

If they were not married with full knowledge and free will, the marriage is invalid.

If they were married without faith, as Pope Benedict XVI said, it’s ground for an annulment.

So, only the couple know what was in their hearts and minds when they got married and why a tribunal has to determine the validity of the marriage based on their statements and three other witnesses, not just the even itself.

My position is that although a valid marriage may have existed at the beginning, for some reason, it ceased to exist. Does that qualify for an annulment ? I would think so, but it’s not up to me.

BTW, for those who may be wondering, I’ve been happily married 42 years.

In other words, I have no horse in the race on annulments
.

Jim

 

[Brendan]

A valid marriage isn’t determined by the event in of itself, but what took place between the couple.

That is certainly part of the event itself. Other aspects include having proper witnesses

Do they not know if they were coerced or not. And full knowledge of what, that they were getting married? What level of knowledge is required?

If they were married without faith, as Pope Benedict XVI said, it’s ground for an annulment.
Jim

Sort, of, as the Church recognizes the marriage of atheists as being valid.

The statement of Pope Benedicts was that a lack of faith might have an impact on the goods of marriage and thus might encourage other, already recognized grounds for annulment.

[/QUOTE]

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JimR-OCDS;12889091:

A valid marriage isn’t determined by the event in of itself, but what took place between the couple.

That is certainly part of the event itself. Other aspects include having proper witnesses

Lack of faith has everything to do with the validity of marriage in my opinion.

In a valid marriage, we go in full knowledge, before the God and ask for His blessing.

If the couple is getting married in the context of a mere social event, it’s probably the grounds for an invalid marriage.

Only my opinion you understand.

Jim

 

[GEddie]

My position is that although a valid marriage may have existed at the beginning, for some reason, it ceased to exist.

Nope, once a valid marriage is formed, it ceases to exist only when one of them ceases being alive.

That is what “until death” implies.

Does that qualify for an annulment ?

Jim

I doubt it. There is a rubric for marriages that were never valid, but not valid marriages that go poof.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Brendan_64]

My position is that although a valid marriage may have existed at the beginning, for some reason, it ceased to exist. Does that qualify for an annulment ? I would think so, but it’s not up to me.

No. Once God has validly joined a couple together in marriage then that is it. A valid marriage cannot cease to exist. An annulment is a formal declaration by the Church that a marriage never existed in the first place. A marriage cannot exist, and then cease to exist.

Annulment is not simply ‘Catholic divorce’.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan;12889137:

JimR-OCDS;12889091:

A valid marriage isn’t determined by the event in of itself, but what took place between the couple.

Lack of faith has everything to do with the validity of marriage in my opinion.

In a valid marriage, we go in full knowledge, before the God and ask for His blessing.

So are you saying that a marriage between two atheists is automatically invalid, or between two buddists?

That natural marriages do not exist at all?

 

[ProVobis]

Lack of faith has everything to do with the validity of marriage in my opinion.

In a valid marriage, we go in full knowledge, before the God and ask for His blessing.

If the couple is getting married in the context of a mere social event, it’s probably the grounds for an invalid marriage.

Only my opinion you understand.

Jim

If the tribunal rules it that way, so be it. I suppose one can always use the argument if the couple say “getting married was a mistake,” that should be good enough for them too. Not advising or being sarcastic but just sayin…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JimR-OCDS;12889336:

Brendan;12889137:

So are you saying that a marriage between two atheists is automatically invalid, or between two buddists?

That natural marriages do not exist at all?

According to Pope Benedict XVI, lack of faith can be grounds for an annulment and so an atheist marriage in the mind of the Church could be invalid.

Again, it’s the couple who seek to come into full union with the Church who will have to decide via pastoral guidance.

Only they know where their hearts and minds were at the the time of their first marriage.

Did they present themselves before God and ask that their marriage be blessed ?

If not, how can it be a valid sacramental marriage ?

Keep in mind, God joins man and woman who come before him and make their vows to each other. But if he isn’t present because they have no belief in God, how could this have taken place ?

God doesn’t force couples to marry,

Keep in mind, I’m not talking about couples who divorce and remarry because they lust for some one other than their spouse, like Henry VIII.

Jim

 

[Brendan_64]

Brendan;12890076:

JimR-OCDS;12889336:

Again, it’s the couple who seek to come into full union with the Church who will have to decide via pastoral guidance.

No. The couple does not decide whether or not their marriage was valid, the Church decides.

Leaving it for the couple to decide will be, in effect, endorsing annulments for any Catholic couple who want their marriage to end. That would be in practice ‘Catholic divorce’ on demand. Which is of course what some people within our Church seem to want.

A couple have no power or authority to determine whether or not their marriage was valid. They may be a useful source of evidence (along with the evidence of other witnesses) but it is the Church that decides whether or not the marriage was valid. Christ did not give the power to bind and loose to ordinary people, He entrusted this power to Peter.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JimR-OCDS;12890391:

Brendan;12890076:

No. The couple does not decide whether or not their marriage was valid, the Church decides.

Actually the do. The marriage tribunals help them through the process in discerning whether their 1st marriage was valid or not. It is the words of the couple or one of the spouses which the tribunal uses to determine whether a marriage existed or not. The problem is, the tribunals for the most part have become over burdened in order to provide pastoral guidance.

Jim

 

[Brendan_64]

Brendan 64;12890457:

JimR-OCDS;12890391:

Actually the do. The marriage tribunals help them through the process in discerning whether their 1st marriage was valid or not. It is the words of the couple or one of the spouses which the tribunal uses to determine whether a marriage existed or not. The problem is, the tribunals for the most part have become over burdened in order to provide pastoral guidance.

Jim

Couples do not decide their own annulment. Their views form part of the overall evidence, including the evidence of other witnesses, and other relevant factors. The Church decides, the couple do not. The couple have no power to decide whether or not their marriage was valid, they may have opinions on this, but they have no power to decide. The power rests with the Church through Peter.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JimR-OCDS;12890469:

Brendan 64;12890457:

Couples do not decide their own annulment. Their views form part of the overall evidence, including the evidence of other witnesses, and other relevant factors. The Church decides, the couple do not. The couple have no power to decide whether or not their marriage was valid, they may have opinions on this, but they have no power to decide. The power rests with the Church through Peter.

The tribunal rules on the application, and decides if the person applying for the annulment can come back into full union with the Church, but it’s the couple, long before they submit an application and are given counseling by their priest to determine if there are grounds for an annulment who decide. It that point, it’s the couple who decides whether there was a valid marriage or not and it is the couple who submits the application, documents and names of witnesses.

Without the couple’s decision, the tribunal would never see the application in the first place.

Jim

 

[Brendan_64]

Brendan 64;12890478:

JimR-OCDS;12890469:

The tribunal rules on the application, and decides if the person applying for the annulment can come back into full union with the Church, but it’s the couple, long before they submit an application and are given counseling by their priest to determine if there are grounds for an annulment who decide. It that point, it’s the couple who decides whether there was a valid marriage or not and it is the couple who submits the application, documents and names of witnesses.

Without the couple’s decision, the tribunal would never see the application in the first place.

Jim

Determining whether there are grounds for an annulment is not the same as determining whether or not the marriage is actually valid.

That’s the same as saying that if your solicitor advises you that you have grounds to take someone to court, then you have in effect decided on the outcome of the trial.

The couple decide whether or not to go ahead with their application for an annulment, but they do not decide whether or not their marriage was indeed valid, they may hold an opinion on this, but their opinion is simply an opinion.

Of course without the couple deciding to put in an application there would never be an annulment, but to equate that with the couple deciding on the outcome of the tribunal is nonsense.

Couples do not decide whether their marriage was valid or not, the Church decides. The couple may hold an opinion on the validity of their marriage, but holding an opinion and putting in an application does not equate to deciding whether or not their marriage was valid. Only the Church can do that, through the authority of Peter. Christ gave this authority to Peter, not to lay-people.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

In all, Pope Francis words are what I’m looking at on this issue, and what I believe he is calling the Church Bishops to do at the Synod.

The church ‘is the house of Jesus’ and must always be open, says pope

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – The church “is the house of Jesus,” and Christians must welcome everyone, even bringing those who are unable to make their way on their own, said Pope Francis at morning Mass March 17.

People who are sad or “sick in their soul” or who have “made many mistakes in their lives” may, at a certain point, feel the Holy Spirit inspire them to go to church, the pope said. But, after mustering up the courage to go, they will often find unwelcoming and judgmental Christian communities with their “doors closed” to them.

Mimicking unwelcoming parishioners, Pope Francis said they tell people, “You made a mistake here and you cannot (enter). If you would like to come, come to Sunday Mass, but stay there, don’t do more.”

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1501158.htm

Some here Pope Francis, while others do not.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will make Pope Francis prayers come true.

Jim

 

[Brendan_64]

In all, Pope Francis words are what I’m looking at on this issue, and what I believe he is calling the Church Bishops to do at the Synod.

Some here Pope Francis, while others do not.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will make Pope Francis prayers come true.

Jim

And some seek to hear in Pope Francis’s words, things that he has not said, or use things he has said to justify things they would like him to say.

We should not seek to take Pope Francis’s words about welcome and extrapolate them forward to fit our own chosen agenda and then claim authority for this agenda from words that he hasn’t actually said.

 

[Tigg]

And some seek to hear in Pope Francis’s words, things that he has not said, or use things he has said to justify things they would like him to say.

We should not seek to take Pope Francis’s words about welcome and extrapolate them forward to fit our own chosen agenda and then claim authority for this agenda from words that he hasn’t actually said.

Very well said!

 

[simple_soul]

And some seek to hear in Pope Francis’s words, things that he has not said, or use things he has said to justify things they would like him to say.

We should not seek to take Pope Francis’s words about welcome and extrapolate them forward to fit our own chosen agenda and then claim authority for this agenda from words that he hasn’t actually said.

Well, maybe if you tried to stop picking out what you want to hear in what Pope Francis is saying then maybe you would understand better what he is saying?

 

[Brendan]

Well, maybe if you tried to stop picking out what you want to hear in what Pope Francis is saying then maybe you would understand better what he is saying?

In other words, you are agreeing with Brendan ( the other Brendan that is), that people should stop picking out what they want to hear.