Five hundred lay people echo priests’ plea to stand firm on Communion for the remarried

[simple_soul]

In other words, you are agreeing with Brendan ( the other Brendan that is), that people should stop picking out what they want to hear.

Oh I believe you know very well what I am and am not agreeing with and I’ll leave it at that.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, maybe if you tried to stop picking out what you want to hear in what Pope Francis is saying then maybe you would understand better what he is saying?

Jim

 

[Brendan_64]

Well, maybe if you tried to stop picking out what you want to hear in what Pope Francis is saying then maybe you would understand better what he is saying?

When have I ever picked anything out of his words? Show me one instance.

His words are his words, I don’t take an approach that what he actually says points ahead to what he actually means but hasn’t yet said.

Hearing his words is one thing, but hearing something other than the words he has actually said is something else entirely.

 

[simple_soul]

When have I ever picked anything out of his words? Show me one instance.

His words are his words, I don’t take an approach that what he actually says points ahead to what he actually means but hasn’t yet said.

Hearing his words is one thing, but hearing something other than the words he has actually said is something else entirely.

I guess the way I am understanding how you are taking Pope Francis words is by implying he is not implying or saying things that others are saying he is implying and saying.

I see no difference in what you do and in what you accuse others of doing.

 

[Brendan_64]

I guess the way I am understanding how you are taking Pope Francis words is by implying he is not implying or saying things that others are saying he is implying and saying.

I see no difference in what you do and in what you accuse others of doing.

No, that is not the same at all.

If Pope Francis says something, then I will take his words at face value. If he says it, then he says it. If he hasn’t said it then I’m not going to assume that he means something else.

Pope Francis is quite plain speaking and doesn’t come across as being afraid to speak what is on his mind.

If he hasn’t actually said something, then we shouldn’t assume that he means something he hasn’t explicitly said. Let’s not go ‘putting words in Pope Francis’s mouth’ and assuming that what he means by his words actually goes a lot further than what he actually says.

 

[simple_soul]

No, that is not the same at all.

if you say so.

If Pope Francis says something, then I will take his words at face value. If he says it, then he says it. If he hasn’t said it then I’m not going to assume that he means something else.

Pope Francis is quite plain speaking and doesn’t come across as being afraid to speak what is on his mind.

If he hasn’t actually said something, then we shouldn’t assume that he means something he hasn’t explicitly said. Let’s not go ‘putting words in Pope Francis’s mouth’ and assuming that what he means by his words actually goes a lot further than what he actually says.

Then let’s also stop putting words into his mouth saying he does not mean certain things when he has not stated that he does not mean certain things.

 

[Brendan_64]

if you say so.

Then let’s also stop putting words into his mouth saying he does not mean certain things when he has not stated that he does not mean certain things.

Is this the new ‘Spirit of Francis’? Use what he says to justify what he hasn’t said? I guess the press do it all the time so it’s no wonder that there are those within the Church who do likewise.

Somehow I don’t think Pope Francis is the sort of man to hold back from saying what he thinks. If he means something, I think he will state it. No need to try to ‘read between the lines’ and try to extrapolate what he has said forward to something he hasn’t stated.

 

[simple_soul]

Is this the new ‘Spirit of Francis’? Use what he says to justify what he hasn’t said? I guess the press do it all the time so it’s no wonder that there are those within the Church who do likewise.

Somehow I don’t think Pope Francis is the sort of man to hold back from saying what he thinks. If he means something, I think he will state it. No need to try to ‘read between the lines’ and try to extrapolate what he has said forward to something he hasn’t stated.

and yet you keep trying to claim, just like Jim has claimed, that you are only “taking Pope Francis at his word” and yet you both seem to have a different understanding of what his word is.

I am not sure if calling that the new “Spirit of Francis” is correct I’ll trust you know better why you do it than I do.

 

[Brendan_64]

and yet you keep trying to claim, just like Jim has claimed, that you are only “taking Pope Francis at his word” and yet you both seem to have a different understanding of what his word is.

But I do not claim that Pope Francis means anything other than that which he has explicitly stated. I certainly do not claim to know what Pope Francis’s prayers are.

 

[Mark121359]

Four times the Church has held her ground on communion for the divorced and remarried

catholicnewsagency.com/blog/four-times-the-church-has-held-her-ground-on-communion-for-the-divorced-and-remarried/

From the article; (bolding mine)

“the teaching of the Catholic Church on the indissolubility of sacramental marriage is the very teaching of the Lord Jesus that has been revealed to us and has always been safeguarded and proclaimed in the Church . . . ***the Church has no authority to change what is of divine law.”

~Pope Paul VI~***

If, as some on here and indeed in the hierarchy of the Church itself seem to believe, that the above teaching could somehow be changed, would it be illogical then to conclude that the teaching discussed below by another pope on a similarly controversial topic could also be changed? (bolding mine)

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) ***I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

---

~Pope John Paul II~

Peace, Mark

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But I do not claim that Pope Francis means anything other than that which he has explicitly stated. I certainly do not claim to know what Pope Francis’s prayers are.

And this is what Pope Francis said, which I posted earlier which you claimed it means something different.

The church ‘is the house of Jesus’ and must always be open, says pope

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – The church “is the house of Jesus,” and Christians must welcome everyone, even bringing those who are unable to make their way on their own, said Pope Francis at morning Mass March 17.

People who are sad or “sick in their soul” or who have “made many mistakes in their lives” may, at a certain point, feel the Holy Spirit inspire them to go to church, the pope said. But, after mustering up the courage to go, they will often find unwelcoming and judgmental Christian communities with their “doors closed” to them.

Mimicking unwelcoming parishioners, Pope Francis said they tell people, “You made a mistake here and you cannot (enter). If you would like to come, come to Sunday Mass, but stay there, don’t do more.”

catholicnews.com/data/sto…ns/1501158.htm

 

[Brendan_64]

And this is what Pope Francis said, which I posted earlier which you claimed it means something different.

I made no claim whatsoever. If I have made a claim then quote it to me.

And there is nothing in that quote from Pope Francis, nothing at all, about Communion. Pope Francis is simply stating, correctly so, that we should welcome people into our churches. There is nothing at all ‘Earth-shattering’ in what the Pope has stated there. Where is the reference to Communion in that quote from Pope Francis?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I made no claim whatsoever. If I have made a claim then quote it to me.

And there is nothing in that quote from Pope Francis, nothing at all, about Communion. Pope Francis is simply stating, correctly so, that we should welcome people into our churches. There is nothing at all ‘Earth-shattering’ in what the Pope has stated there. Where is the reference to Communion in that quote from Pope Francis?

You posted;

And some seek to hear in Pope Francis’s words, things that he has not said, or use things he has said to justify things they would like him to say.

Who in this thread is hearing things he didn’t say ?

Jim

 

[Brendan_64]

You posted;

Who in this thread is hearing things he didn’t say ?

Jim

There is nothing in there where I claim anything relating to what Pope Francis has said, nothing at all. You are clutching at straws.

I simply pointed out that others are claiming that what Pope Francis actually says can be used to imply something he hasn’t said.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There is nothing in there where I claim anything relating to what Pope Francis has said, nothing at all. You are clutching at straws.

I simply pointed out that others are claiming that what Pope Francis actually says can be used to imply something he hasn’t said.

But it doesn’t matter what others think, but only the Bishops at the synod.

I was merely expressing an agreement in what I Pope Francis said and hope that his message will be heard at the synod. .

How others take what he says means little in the grand scheme of things.

Jim

 

[Brendan]

And this is what Pope Francis said, which I posted earlier which you claimed it means something different.

People who are sad or “sick in their soul” or who have “made many mistakes in their lives” may, at a certain point, feel the Holy Spirit inspire them to go to church, the pope said. But, after mustering up the courage to go, they will often find unwelcoming and judgmental Christian communities with their “doors closed” to them.

Most parishes are fully open every Sunday for anyone who wishes to attend. Do you have any thoughts on which parishes do not allow such people to attend.

Of course, I would challenge you not to read into the Pope’s statements anything that would promote a particular agenda. Or read into it anymore than he said, that doors are closed to people.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Most parishes are fully open every Sunday for anyone who wishes to attend. Do you have any thoughts on which parishes do not allow such people to attend.

Of course, I would challenge you not to read into the Pope’s statements anything that would promote a particular agenda. Or read into it anymore than he said, that doors are closed to people.

You merely prove that you do not understand what the Pope said.

Jim

 

[OraLabora]

Most parishes are fully open every Sunday for anyone who wishes to attend. Do you have any thoughts on which parishes do not allow such people to attend.

Of course, I would challenge you not to read into the Pope’s statements anything that would promote a particular agenda. Or read into it anymore than he said, that doors are closed to people.

It would seem obvious to me that he was speaking figuratively about “closed doors”, in that certain communities are very cold and unwelcoming to those who have made a mess of their lives. It isn’t a matter of not allowing, but not welcoming with them open hearts, or as St Benedict says “as if it were Christ himself walking through the door”. Even those who have made a mess of their lives carry the image of Christ on their hearts (St. Benedict is very clear on this), and that gives them an inherent dignity.

Of course such folks have developed a rupture between themselves, Christ, and who Christ calls them to be. This is inherent in every sinner. The purpose of monastic life, which should be the purpose of every Christian, is to heal that gaping wound. As the Holy Father Emeritus puts it:

“(on the story of aborted sacrifice of Isaac by his father Abraham)…In the lamb, the Church Fathers saw the prophetic announcement of the coming of Jesus and concluded that Jesus was both the lamb (the ram caught in the bushes) and Isaac. He is the lamb who allowed himself to be captured, tied and immolated, and at the same time he is Isaac who saw heaven open before him. Indeed, unlike Isaac, it is not in a cryptic manner that he saw Heaven, instead he entered it. **Thus the boundary between man and God opened. **"

(Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI), Behold the Pierced One: An Approach to a Spiritual Christology. San Francisco: Ignatius Press. 1986.; my translation, I am working from a French copy; my bold).

Indeed Christ broke down the boundary between man and God. As sinners, Satan has gone to great effort to help us re-erect them which we gleefully do when we sin, which all of us do. A life of conversion therefore, works at breaking them down again through the help of grace attained through the sacraments, starting usually, with the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

The salient point here is that to begin this process of conversion one must enter the Church. Entering the Church is not an arrival, it is a departure on a spiritual journey of redemption. If, as Christians, we fail miserably at evangelization, we do even worse by coldly appearing to judge those in worse straights than we imagine ourselves to be in. We are playing to a T the role of pharisee in the story of the pharisee and the tax collector. I know I can say “guilty as charged your honour” in this regard and I’m sure if each of us was honest with him/herself we could say the same thing too.

The Holy Father is exhorting us to ditch this mindset, and instead have sympathy for those who come to the Church with messy lives, wanting to start down the right path. “There but for the grace of God go I…”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It would seem obvious to me that he was speaking figuratively about “closed doors”, in that certain communities are very cold and unwelcoming to those who have made a mess of their lives. It isn’t a matter of not allowing, but not welcoming with them open hearts, or as St Benedict says “as if it were Christ himself walking through the door”. Even those who have made a mess of their lives carry the image of Christ on their hearts (St. Benedict is very clear on this), and that gives them an inherent dignity.

Of course such folks have developed a rupture between themselves, Christ, and who Christ calls them to be. This is inherent in every sinner. The purpose of monastic life, which should be the purpose of every Christian, is to heal that gaping wound. As the Holy Father Emeritus puts it:

(Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI), Behold the Pierced One: An Approach to a Spiritual Christology. San Francisco: Ignatius Press. 1986.; my translation, I am working from a French copy; my bold).

Indeed Christ broke down the boundary between man and God. As sinners, Satan has gone to great effort to help us re-erect them which we gleefully do when we sin, which all of us do. A life of conversion therefore, works at breaking them down again through the help of grace attained through the sacraments, starting usually, with the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

The salient point here is that to begin this process of conversion one must enter the Church. Entering the Church is not an arrival, it is a departure on a spiritual journey of redemption. If, as Christians, we fail miserably at evangelization, we do even worse by coldly appearing to judge those in worse straights than we imagine ourselves to be in. We are playing to a T the role of pharisee in the story of the pharisee and the tax collector. I know I can say “guilty as charged your honour” in this regard and I’m sure if each of us was honest with him/herself we could say the same thing too.

The Holy Father is exhorting us to ditch this mindset, and instead have sympathy for those who come to the Church with messy lives, wanting to start down the right path. “There but for the grace of God go I…”

As usual, you explain it perfectly

Jim

 

[ProVobis]

It would seem obvious to me that he was speaking figuratively about “closed doors”, in that certain communities are very cold and unwelcoming to those who have made a mess of their lives.

That amongst a lot of other things. But, and excuse me for being cynical here, a little donation goes a long way in healing that “unwelcome.” After I dropped a few checks in the collection plate, they were all over me to drop by the rectory.