Flags and Idolatry

[Contarini]

I think, rather, that it is appropriate to recognize that the American state, and the guarantors of its continued existence, both individuals and institutions, provide an opportunity to exercise, as you will, that Christian freedom. And the same is true in any other polity where that is, and remains, possible.

Who do you see acknowledging the American state, in a liturgical sense? Other, of course, than praying for the President and governor, as I assume you do.

GKC

Note that I specifically said “acknowledging . . . as a source of freedom.” Christians living under persecuting tyrants are still to pray for them.

I think a good rule of thumb is: if we would be bothered by Christians living under Hitler doing it, then we shouldn’t do it. Not because the U.S. or Britain is morally equivalent to Hitler’s Germany, but because the moral and spiritual value of a particular regime is only incidental to Christians’ theological attitude toward the state.

Granted, I might feel squeamish even about praying for Hitler liturgically without explicitly asking God to grant him repentance and conversion. But then, perhaps that wouldn’t be a bad general principle: however much you may admire the leaders of your country, ask God to turn them away from the evil by which (as sinful human beings in a position of power) they are always going to be tempted.

And yes, I’m aware that on this point (and no doubt on many others) you are much more in line with Anglican tradition than I am. This is one of the most fundamental things that bothers me about Anglicanism.

Edwin

 

[GKC]

Note that I specifically said “acknowledging . . . as a source of freedom.” Christians living under persecuting tyrants are still to pray for them.

I think a good rule of thumb is: if we would be bothered by Christians living under Hitler doing it, then we shouldn’t do it. Not because the U.S. or Britain is morally equivalent to Hitler’s Germany, but because the moral and spiritual value of a particular regime is only incidental to Christians’ theological attitude toward the state.

Granted, I might feel squeamish even about praying for Hitler liturgically without explicitly asking God to grant him repentance and conversion. But then, perhaps that wouldn’t be a bad general principle: however much you may admire the leaders of your country, ask God to turn them away from the evil by which (as sinful human beings in a position of power) they are always going to be tempted.

And yes, I’m aware that on this point (and no doubt on many others) you are much more in line with Anglican tradition than I am. This is one of the most fundamental things that bothers me about Anglicanism.

Edwin

You could ask them to pronounce me anathema.

GKC

 

[PaulDupre]

The American flag, like many of the symbols displayed in churches, is a reminder of the values we should aspire to: the free will that is granted to us by God, the “American Trinity (In God We Trust, E pluribus Unum, and Liberty)” and many other things. When I see the flag I am reminded of values that are distinctly American, and I thank God that He allowed me to be born and raised here.

I have spent a good deal of time 3rd world countries, so I know how blessed I have been.

Where do some people get the idea that, because the American flag is displayed in some churches, that those churches worship the flag? We display flowers in church too, but no one thinks we worship flowers.

 

[TimothyH]

I’m from South Carolina. Most of the evangelical churches (Southern Baptists, Pentecostals, etc) will have crosses on the top of their buildings, on the sides of their buildings, a one at the front of the sanctuary. It could be big or small. And not every church will have a flag in the sanctuary. Mine doesn’t.

Yes, many do have crosses. But many don’t have crosses, especially non-denominational Evangelical Churches. Off the top of my head I can think of five churches in my area which I have personally visited, each without a visible cross anywhere.

It is very sad to see a professionally designed logo, elaborate coffee bar, loft with plush sofas, professional lighting and sound stage that would make Metallica jealous, and no visible sign to teach us of spiritual realities.

-Tim-

 

[exnihilo]

The American flag, like many of the symbols displayed in churches, is a reminder of the values we should aspire to: the free will that is granted to us by God, the “American Trinity (In God We Trust, E pluribus Unum, and Liberty)” and many other things. When I see the flag I am reminded of values that are distinctly American, and I thank God that He allowed me to be born and raised here.

I would dispute that any values are distinctly American, including those which most characterize modern America - drug use, abortion, pornography, divorce and so on. In fact most of our political values if anything are from our British heritage. You might be able to argue America at one time more perfectly honored those values but today there is no real distinction between American political freedom and most other Western countries with the exception of America does still have the most freedom of political speech (though even this is being lessened through the concept of ‘free speech zones’).

But what really goes on in most people’s mind when they see the flag? Do they really think on those things? I suspect not. I believe they mostly think about the wealth and power of the nation. This is what they are truly most thankful for because really most other Western countries are just as politically free. There is nothing really different about the US anymore. In fact most of the political arguments these days revolve around how the rest of the world has this or that so the US should.

I believe folks then think specifically about the US military while thinking that it has *given *them freedom. And then they think vaguely on those higher principles but only to the extent that they have utter faith that those principles are truly being honored to the point that all actions are interpreted as if those principles are true. For example despite the constant effort to remove God and most specifically Jesus Christ from public life people will still believe that the US trusts in and honors God.

Where do some people get the idea that, because the American flag is displayed in some churches, that those churches worship the flag? We display flowers in church too, but no one thinks we worship flowers.

The question for me was more how do Protestants or anyone who rejects icons, statues etc. justify this. Catholics have a better position since they defend images. I think flowers would be different because they are not their for their symbolism but beauty. For many Protestants they cant even have a statue for its beauty if that statue is recognized in any way other than beauty. I dont think anyone would claim the flag is there for its beauty. Everyone would say it is there to symbolize something.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

The question for me was more how do Protestants or anyone who rejects icons, statues etc. justify this. Catholics have a better position since they defend images. I think flowers would be different because they are not their for their symbolism but beauty. For many Protestants they cant even have a statue for its beauty if that statue is recognized in any way other than beauty. I dont think anyone would claim the flag is there for its beauty. Everyone would say it is there to symbolize something.

I’ve been thinking the same thing. Many of the practices Protestants accuse Catholicism and Orthodoxy of being idolatrous are practices that are routinely done in the secular world without the slightest thought. There are complicated protocols when it comes to the flag itself. If it falls to the ground the proper authorities must be notified to burn and replace the flag. In a military setting, an official must salute the flag upon entering and leaving the room. We have the pledge of allegiance in our schools.

When greeting a monarch it is usually customary to bow, in order to give due respect. We bestow lavish titles on such people (“Your Majesty…” “Your Excellency…”). We sing songs of praises to our nations (national anthems).

Personally I don’t have a problem with all of this. And therefore, I cannot say that there is anything wrong with Catholic and Orthodox practices in this vain. In fact, I think it helps bring it to a clearer perspective. I know I don’t worship the flag, but I honor it for it represents the nation in which God blessed me to live.

Technically, if we want to be consistent, if we are to shut out those practices, then we must be like Jehovah’s Witnesses and shut out “secular veneration” as well. It’s the only logical conclusion in my book.

 

[sedonaman]

One thing that has always bothered me is a flag in church. …

Did you know that Christians all over the world are being persecuted and killed for their faith?

Now, what was that you were saying about a flag?

 

[Nicea325]

One thing that has always bothered me is a flag in church. I imagine like many things this practice varies greatly. But in the South, in what you might be your more conservative churches, it is not unusual to find a US flag. This flag might be found with the ‘Christian’ flag on the other side of the church to give balance, but also to avoid the obvious problem of having the US flag as your only or such a prominent symbol.

It has always bothered me for the symbolism. I know I’m in America. The flag itself has no meaning in the average service, save for national services. The symbol is irrelevant to most worship. And given the current state of affairs I cant believe that God would be very excited about being associated in any way with our government. So what is being conveyed by its presence?

The more I thought about it the more it stopped just bothering me but angering me. The very same people who complain about Catholic practices have no problem having a secular government flag in their church. They dont want a cross. They cant have a statue. But they can have this flag. If a piece of cloth representing a government is good enough for a church why not a statue of a Saint?

What really convinced me that this practice is actually idolatrous is seeing what happened around Independence Day. In a prelude to the service the Star Spangled Banner was played. I think that is bad enough since the song has nothing to do with preparing to worship, but what follows is worse. The entire congregation stops talking (the normal preparation for worship), stands up facing the flag, and many put their hand over their hearts. They remain like this for the entire rather long song. Afterwards they go back to talking.

The idea of worshiping God does not silence people, but honoring the state does. Standing for the flag is good but kneeling for God is not. Crossing yourself is unnecessary because physical demonstrations are of no value but placing your hand over your heart is worthy respect for the state.

If you go into many Baptist (not trying to pick on anyone I just think it is particularly common with them) or non-denominational churches you’ll find a flag, possibly large, and people who seem to hold these grossly inconsistent principles. These folks think nothing of their actions regarding honoring the US flag but recoil in horror at the thought of the same actions for religion.

Are these people worshiping the US flag since by their own beliefs they claim showing devotion to anything physical (at least in church) is not worshiping God? How is this not a great hypocrisy? Can anyone justify this devotion to the flag, in a church?

Frankly,

To me it makes no difference. I am not there to focus on flags,paintings,etc,but on Jesus.

 

[stevekehl]

I think you missed the point of his post. The emphasis he was making is that many of these Protestant churches are very anti-anything physical related to worship, such as crossing oneself, having statues of Jesus, Mary or the saints, genuflecting before an altar, reverencing the crucifix etc. but are all-too-eager to reverence the flag. He was stating that this is an inconsistency.

I think you missed the point of my post, it was sarcasm and a little bit of “get over yourself.” No one “reverences” a flag. It is a symbol of our country, which we should respect and embrace, warts and all. I think this post is a desperate attempt to hold Protestants up for hypocrisy. I am less concerned about what hangs on the walls of your church and more about getting butts in the pews and teaching them about Jesus.

 

[antonivs]

…No one “reverences” a flag…

Are you sure about that?

In recent years, Vietnam War veteran submariner Alan Carter of Tavares has promoted continued reverence for Old Glory by flying the flag over historic sites around the world - a tradition his father began more than 30 years ago.

articles.orlandosentinel.com/1995-01-08/news/9501070116_1_flag-carter-iwo-jima

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I think you missed the point of my post, it was sarcasm and a little bit of “get over yourself.” No one “reverences” a flag. It is a symbol of our country, which we should respect and embrace, warts and all. I think this post is a desperate attempt to hold Protestants up for hypocrisy. I am less concerned about what hangs on the walls of your church and more about getting butts in the pews and teaching them about Jesus.

What’s the real difference between “respect” and “reverence”? Is kissing a flag reverence? Or just respect? It’s been done. What’s the difference between this:

http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/-images/2008/12/11/27019/size0-army.mil-27019-2008-12-12-081248.jpg

and this?:



They’re both doing the same thing: giving honor, love, and respect to what is being represented. The Ukrainian soldier to his beloved country, and the woman there to the Virgin Mary.

If bowing down and kissing a flag isn’t reverence, then what’s all the fuss about Catholics reverencing statues and Orthodox kissing icons?

 

[Z_Ninja]

I personally have never paid much attention to the flags on the altar. I mean, I noticed they were there, an American flag and a Vatican flag, but my focus was on the Mass. I just figured the Vatican flag for the Church and the American flag was present because we attended Mass on a Naval Base (father is retired Navy). There were also statues of Mary and Joseph on the walls on either side of where the priest sat and a large cross above him.
The statues were in closets(for lack of better word) where the doors would be closed during a Protestant service (base chapel was used by both Catholic Mass and Protestant services). and I presume the large cross instead of a crucifix as in most other Catholic churches I have been to. The priests, who were also Navy Chaplain officers, would also hang banners on the walls representing the various ships and or squadrons stationed on the base. These have never distracted from the real focus of why we were in the building which is the Eucharist.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I think you missed the point of my post, it was sarcasm and a little bit of “get over yourself.” No one “reverences” a flag. It is a symbol of our country, which we should respect and embrace, warts and all. I think this post is a desperate attempt to hold Protestants up for hypocrisy. I am less concerned about what hangs on the walls of your church and more about getting butts in the pews and teaching them about Jesus.

I sense a great deal of hostility in your post. Why?

Standing and putting your hand over your heart when the flag is reverence.

Also, it doesn’t make sense that you say “I think this post is a desperate attempt to hold Protestants up for hypocrisy” because the one who posted is a Protestant.

Your last point I would agree with but has nothing to do with the spirit or purpose of this thread.

 

[exnihilo]

Technically, if we want to be consistent, if we are to shut out those practices, then we must be like Jehovah’s Witnesses and shut out “secular veneration” as well. It’s the only logical conclusion in my book.

I’m not sure that for consistencies sake we must do as the Jehovah’s Witnesses do. I think one could rightly say there is a time and place for everything. And there is proper degrees of veneration. The idea of veneration has in it the idea of honoring. We are supposed to honor our father and our mother. If we take the idea of no veneration too far how do we honor our parents? I guess if you limit the idea to obeying it might not be a problem.

Did you know that Christians all over the world are being persecuted and killed for their faith?

Now, what was that you were saying about a flag?

Of course I am, but I dont understand your point.

I think you missed the point of my post, it was sarcasm and a little bit of “get over yourself.” No one “reverences” a flag. It is a symbol of our country, which we should respect and embrace, warts and all. I think this post is a desperate attempt to hold Protestants up for hypocrisy. I am less concerned about what hangs on the walls of your church and more about getting butts in the pews and teaching them about Jesus.

In one sentence you say no one reverences a flag and in the next it is a symbol we should respect, which I would consider to mean show reverence to. I dont understand your ‘desperate attempt’ assertion. I am a Protestant who said that I find a serious hypocrisy in the common Protestant position that one can not have images of Saints in a sanctuary but you can have a national flag. No one has yet to explain how this could be justified for someone who holds such beliefs.

I also believe that Americans have an excessive reverence to the flag and provided evidence of this. I agree getting people to church is very important but not at any cost, and I doubt and hope anyone would disagree. The purpose of the post was in part to explore why you would put a flag in a church. To that end I asked questions to provoke thought like did the early church put images of the Roman imperium in their churches once Christianity was no longer persecuted?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I’m not sure that for consistencies sake we must do as the Jehovah’s Witnesses do. I think one could rightly say there is a time and place for everything. And there is proper degrees of veneration. The idea of veneration has in it the idea of honoring. We are supposed to honor our father and our mother. If we take the idea of no veneration too far how do we honor our parents? I guess if you limit the idea to obeying it might not be a problem.

I’m not saying we should follow them. In fact, I outright reject them. But what I am saying is that you can’t condemn veneration of Mary, the saints, and icons as idolatry, but then honor a flag or an elected official and say that it’s not. I DO believe that veneration can go too far, and I do agree that some Catholics go overboard in Mary veneration. But the concept itself is not idolatrous.

 

[exnihilo]

I’m not saying we should follow them. In fact, I outright reject them. But what I am saying is that you can’t condemn veneration of Mary, the saints, and icons as idolatry, but then honor a flag or an elected official and say that it’s not. I DO believe that veneration can go too far, and I do agree that some Catholics go overboard in Mary veneration. But the concept itself is not idolatrous.

I think I understood what you mean and basically agree with you. I was just saying that I think you could also draw a distinction from where and how you venerate something. It might be acceptable to venerate something outside a worship service that is not appropriate in a worship service. For instance it might make sense to venerate a specific person at their funeral but not in a general worship service.

 

[stevekehl]

What’s the real difference between “respect” and “reverence”? Is kissing a flag reverence? Or just respect? It’s been done. What’s the difference between this:

http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/-images/2008/12/11/27019/size0-army.mil-27019-2008-12-12-081248.jpg

and this?:

http://www.soufanieh.com/IMG/2002.kissing.icon.jpg

They’re both doing the same thing: giving honor, love, and respect to what is being represented. The Ukrainian soldier to his beloved country, and the woman there to the Virgin Mary.

If bowing down and kissing a flag isn’t reverence, then what’s all the fuss about Catholics reverencing statues and Orthodox kissing icons?

They’re not the same. One is a military unit in barracks, not a church service. If anyone wants to kiss a painting or a statue be my guest.

 

[stevekehl]

In one sentence you say no one reverences a flag and in the next it is a symbol we should respect, which I would consider to mean show reverence to. I dont understand your ‘desperate attempt’ assertion.

Reverence and respect are two different things. I respect my parents, but I don’t reverence them like I do God. The flag, in and of itself, does not deserve respect, but the country and government it represents does. Your original post conveyed anger at people who showed respect for the flag and country at church because it was out of place and hypocritical, however, numerous Scriptures instruct us to repsect our governments and leaders
Mat 22:21 They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
1Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

This seems like a minor thing to get angry about, kind of nit-picking

I am a Protestant who said that I find a serious hypocrisy in the common Protestant position that one can not have images of Saints in a sanctuary but you can have a national flag. No one has yet to explain how this could be justified for someone who holds such beliefs.

Protestants don’t believe saints can intercede with God on their behalf, as such there is no reason to have icons about the sanctuary, there is no personal connection to saints. There is a personal connection to the flag. We should be reminded often of the blessings God has showered on our country and the gratitude we owe Him for it. We should be reminded of the foundation of this country on Christian priniciples, especially now that the trend is to deny the faith of America’s founders. We should remember that even with the many problems our country has, it is still the goal of thousands of immigrants every year, some at the risk of their lives. The difference is meaning, pictures of saints have no meaning to American Protestants, the flag does.

 

[exnihilo]

Reverence and respect are two different things. I respect my parents, but I don’t reverence them like I do God. The flag, in and of itself, does not deserve respect, but the country and government it represents does. Your original post conveyed anger at people who showed respect for the flag and country at church because it was out of place and hypocritical, however, numerous Scriptures instruct us to repsect our governments and leaders…

This seems like a minor thing to get angry about, kind of nit-picking

We’ll have to more strictly define reverence and respect to have a meaningful discussion. Merriam-Webster defines reference as ‘honor or respect felt or shown’. And their second definition of respect is ‘an act of giving particular attention’. There are the mental aspects of these words and the physical. As to what constitutes reverence versus respect I dont think it particularly matters for this discussion as the issue is where it is shown and to what it is refused.

The issue of the flag is its symbolic use as an image representing possibly the nation and possibly the government. The distinction is not always clear.

My anger is justified and has nothing to do with the Scripture. My anger is at the fact that Protestants as a rule disallow showing reverence or respect to images of any sort in the church with the sole exception of the US flag. If we were to replace the US flag with even a cross, not even a crucifix, most Protestants would not show it the same reverence.

Though the Bible mentions that at the name of Jesus ever knee should bow most Protestants would reject the idea that every time Jesus name is mentioned they bow, or cross themselves but at every playing of the Star Spangled Banner everyone will stop talking, turn to the flag and most put their hand over their heart.

The anger is the hypocrisy and the willingness to show a degree of reverence in a sanctuary that they will not show God or Saints. I dont think it is nitpicking at all. If they are unwilling to show to God or saints the same reverence they show things of man then that is a serious problem. If their principles excluded all such signs they would have an excuse, but since they except the flag they are without excuse.

however, numerous Scriptures instruct us to repsect our governments and leaders
Mat 22:21 They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
1Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

Yes, there is a requirement to respect authority. I’ll note it is interesting that the Bible actually mentions respecting kings. An ideology that rejects kings, which many Americans hold, could be against the Scripture.

Protestants don’t believe saints can intercede with God on their behalf, as such there is no reason to have icons about the sanctuary, there is no personal connection to saints. There is a personal connection to the flag. We should be reminded often of the blessings God has showered on our country and the gratitude we owe Him for it. We should be reminded of the foundation of this country on Christian priniciples, especially now that the trend is to deny the faith of America’s founders. We should remember that even with the many problems our country has, it is still the goal of thousands of immigrants every year, some at the risk of their lives. The difference is meaning, pictures of saints have no meaning to American Protestants, the flag does.

I dont disagree with the last sentence but find it tragic and terrible. If pictures of the Saints can not inspire us but a flag representing the temporal power of a state can then that faith is diseased.

People wanting to come to the US does not make it good. People want to move to Las Vegas and San Francisco. But that does not make those places good. Many people want to move to both for lifestyles that are not Christian (I dont mean everyone but just many). Sodom and Gomorrah were no doubt popular places too. I’m not saying the US is like that, but I’d not argue fiercely against the idea either.

 

[stevekehl]

Ok. What are icons? I thought they were pictures or statues of saints.