Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

[Ben_Masada]

Interesting. How many “branches” of Judaism today? You are opening more of Judaism to me. What is Biblical Judaism as compared to other “branches” of Judaism, then. Sorry for being off topic, but I can’t hold myself from asking. I think that you are allowing me more about Judaism which open my eyes.

**There are four branches: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist. This last one is too humanistic. The Orthodox is the most religious one with about 85 percent who believe and expect an individual Messiah. The Conservative branch, about 50 percent still believe in an individual Messiah. The Reform Movement has almost totally adopted the concept of the Collective Messiah. I mean, they believe in a Messianic era with Israel being the Messiah figure.

Now, Biblical Judaism vis-a-vis the other branches, I would not say opposite but they juxtapose Biblical Judaism as Rabbinical Judaism. I do not consider myself Rabbinical Judaism, although I am not at all against our Rabbis. But I stand against them when I seem to see contradiction between their views and the Scriptures.

The oral Law, for example, is the propriety of Rabbinical Judaism. I don’t take it in the same level with the written Torah, but I do consider it as a system of fences around the written Torah. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Do you know what the penalty for a Centurion would be, if he didn’t carry out his orders?

If you don’t, then I suggest you learn. If you do, ponder on how much gold would be required to make that penalty worthwhile. Remember to factor in how much gold the Centurian needs to pay others, so they don’t blab.

jonathon

**Yes, I do know what would be the penalty for soldiers who failed to do their job. How do you explain the fact that after Jesus said goodbye to his disciples and left, no one ever heard or nowhere is mentioned about these three peoples: Joseph of Arimathea, Mary Magdalene and Jesus? Jesus yes but about his teachings; not his whereabouts. Most certainly the Centurion accepted the fat bribe of Joseph of Arimathea only after he guaranteed that he would leave Israel never to return.

I also know that IF there were soldiers watching the tomb and they did spread the news, as they were instructed by the priests, that the disciples came by night and stole Jesus’ body, they would have all been killed. There is no record that this ever happened. So, either there were no soldiers at the tomb or the tale of the bribe was a fabrication.**

 

[cargau]

cargau;5502248:

Hi Ben,

Even if Jesus did not die on the cross, how was He able to be “seen” by His disciples after only three days. I get a toothache and I don’t want to be seen after three days!

**Luke says in Acts 1:1-3 that Jesus spent 40 days on earth AFTER HIS SUFFERING OR PASSION. It does not mean he died or much less resurrected. It could be that he started appearing to his disciples in the last three days. Remember that when Joseph of Arimathea and his men raised Jesus from that tomb, Dr. Nicodemus was together with about 100 pounds of medications to help Joseph with the treatment of Jesus. (John 19:39) After about 30 days he could have appeared to his disciples. And mind you that Luke says, "with convincing proofs that he was alive in flesh and bone. And some of the proofs were that he would eat and drink and… you know what happens at the end of digestion of food. **

Joseph of Arimathea did not raise Jesus from tthe tomb. He brought Jesus down from the cross. The “medications” were myrhh and aloes. These are principally used, not for healing, but for burial. Jesus did eat and drink after His resurrection. And, no, I don’t know what you mean about the digestion of food thing…

Jesus was severely scourged and nailed to a cross. I believe He was very close to death before the he was hung on the tree. Indeed, I don’t doubt that He died.

**You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but scourging of people condemned to the cross was a matter of course in the Roman agenda. (John 19:1)
Jesus was not the only one. And Josephus says that it was not uncommon for crucified to remain on their crosses even up to three of four days still alive. Mind you that Jesus was taken off his cross after about 4 or 5 hours. This is about 95 percent that he survived the cross. **

How could you possibly make such a claim. There are so many variables. How extensive was the scourging? What was his state of health? How much blood did he lose? How can anyone put a percentage on that?

Flavius seems to be willing to acknowledge the possibility that Jesus may have been the Messiah. I believe that is a hard thing to do for most Jews of the time. The evidence must have been reasonably compelling. Or, perhaps the Holy Spirit was working on and with him.

There are other quotations but complete interpolations by the Church.

Finally, I would like to ask…How does the Christian understanding of the Messiah “pale” in comparison to the Jewish understanding? The Christian idea is that the Messiah is the savior of the world and the second person of the Trinity…Sounds pretty outstanding to me…

**This is totally Hellenistic and an attack to the integrity of Judaism to use a religious Jew to declare that he was God. Moreover, The Christian understanding of the Messiah pales in comparison to the Jewish understanding, because a great number of Jews, including myself, believe that the Messiah is Israel, the Jewish People. Collective, therefory. That’s a far cry from the individual concept. **

I think all of Christianity challenges Judaism. Indeed, Christ is the fulfillment of Judaism. It is not meant to be an attack, per se. It simply is.

Finally, if the messiah is Israel and the Jewish people, why are you still waiting? Israel and the Jewish people exist, don’t they? One last thought…bear with me here, Ben, if my understanding of the Messiah is one who out of the greatest love and mercy of God was sent to dwell among us, to teach us how to live and make possible eternal salvation, that this person is indeed, the second person of the Holy Trinity and that He started a Church to guide us to heaven…If everything I just said was true, how does my perception pale in comparison to yours???

 

[jblake]

Ben Masada;:

no one ever heard or nowhere is mentioned about these three peoples: Joseph of Arimathea, Mary Magdalene and Jesus?

According to The Gospel of Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea was killed by the Jews, purely because he put Jesus into his own tomb. Several second and third century Church Fathers write details about Joseph of Arimathea, that are not found in the Gospels.

Medieval legend claims that Joseph of Arimathea was the person responsible for the Christianization of England during the first century.

Orthodox Christianity claims that Mary Magdalene went to Rome, to witness to Tiberius. (Incidentally, that is why we have Easter eggs today.)

The Gospel of Mary is but one Gnostic text that discusses her life after the death of the Jesus on the Cross.

Jesus died on the cross. The medical description of Jesus on the Cross correlates only with that of a person who is dead. I’ll grant that doesn’t take cover the “but Jesus wasn’t on the cross” thesis. Judas’ kiss pretty much takes care of that issue.

If, hypothetically, Jesus was not on the Cross, then where would he have gone? There is only one possible candidate in the New Testament. However, Josephus has some interesting evidence that pretty much rules out that individual as being Jesus — especially since Josephus can’t shut up about Jesus.

There is no record that this ever happened. So, either there were no soldiers at the tomb or the tale of the bribe was a fabrication.

The tale of the bribe is your fabrication.

jonathon

 

[mark_a]

The Christian idea about the Messiah pales before the Jewish concept of the one.

Ben

I gotta admit here, I don’t have a good grasp of what that might be.

Even in Jewish circles, there seem to be many concepts of the Jewish messiah.

If the Jewish idea of a messiah includes salvation for non-Jews, and is superior to the Christian teaching of who Jesus is, I’ll jump in with both feet!

 

[w_stewart]

None. I go to the one closest to my home. It just happens that it is Orthodox. But I would go to if it was Conservative or Reform. My Judaism is Biblical Judaism.

What is Biblical Judaism? You mean that of Pharisees?

 

[SteveLohr]

TheQuestioner;5501263:

The women would obviously ask the guards to move the stone.

**You are engaging on empty speculations. If not, prove to me with a quotation that they were speaking about asking the guards to move the stone. **

Ben, it seems to me that your hypothesis that the Centurion was bribed is at least as great a speculation as “the Questioner” is making. Applying your own standard to your hypothesis: “prove to me with a quotation” that the Centurion was bribed.

Regards,
SteveLohr

 

[Ben_Masada]

I gotta admit here, I don’t have a good grasp of what that might be.

Even in Jewish circles, there seem to be many concepts of the Jewish messiah.

If the Jewish idea of a messiah includes salvation for non-Jews, and is superior to the Christian teaching of who Jesus is, I’ll jump in with both feet!

Compare Genesis 8:21,22 with Jeremiah 31:35,36 and jump in because as long as Israel exists as a People before the Lord forever, Mankind will be in the boat and not on the water.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5502178:

TheQuestioner;5501263:

The women would obviously ask the guards to move the stone.

**You are engaging on empty speculations. If not, prove to me with a quotation that they were speaking about asking the guards to move the stone. **

Ben, it seems to me that your hypothesis that the Centurion was bribed is at least as great a speculation as “the Questioner” is making. Applying your own standard to your hypothesis: “prove to me with a quotation” that the Centurion was bribed.

Regards,
SteveLohr

**Well, there is a small difference though. I have a precedent to back me up in the very questionable bribing of the guards at the tomb, when there are enough evidences to the contrary. What precedence does “The Questioner” have for the women to be completely unaware of any guards at the tomb? **

 

[mark_a]

Compare Genesis 8:21,22 with Jeremiah 31:35,36 and jump in because as long as Israel exists as a People before the Lord forever, Mankind will be in the boat and not on the water.

Thanks for the passages, Ben. Now if you can clarify the Jewish interpretation, it would help.

 

[aquabatix]

According to The Gospel of Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea was killed by the Jews, purely because he put Jesus into his own tomb. Several second and third century Church Fathers write details about Joseph of Arimathea, that are not found in the Gospels.

Medieval legend claims that Joseph of Arimathea was the person responsible for the Christianization of England during the first century.

Orthodox Christianity claims that Mary Magdalene went to Rome, to witness to Tiberius. (Incidentally, that is why we have Easter eggs today.)

The Gospel of Mary is but one Gnostic text that discusses her life after the death of the Jesus on the Cross.

Jesus died on the cross. The medical description of Jesus on the Cross correlates only with that of a person who is dead. I’ll grant that doesn’t take cover the “but Jesus wasn’t on the cross” thesis. Judas’ kiss pretty much takes care of that issue.

If, hypothetically, Jesus was not on the Cross, then where would he have gone? There is only one possible candidate in the New Testament. However, Josephus has some interesting evidence that pretty much rules out that individual as being Jesus — especially since Josephus can’t shut up about Jesus.

The tale of the bribe is your fabrication.

jonathon

Thank for sharing your knowledge of these other books. If you are familiar enough with them, could you tell us if any of them contain any “bribed centurion” stories?:ehh:

 

[jblake]

aquabatix;:

If you are familiar enough with them, could you tell us if any of them contain any “bribed centurion” stories?:ehh:

Most of the “bribed centurion” stories come from Matthew 28:11-15. One of the legends claims Longinus took the money, but told people that the body was resurrected.

There are a couple of Jewish texts that claim the soldiers were bribed. The strange thing about them, is that those texts also claim that the trial, and death of Jesus were violations of both Jewish and Roman Law.

jonathon

 

[Ben_Masada]

Thanks for the passages, Ben. Now if you can clarify the Jewish interpretation, it would help.

**My pleasure! The catastrophe of the Flood had just ended, and God was establishing the Noahite covenant with all Mankind through Noah. That’s in Genesis 8:21. In verse 22, God connects His promise to the stability of the natural laws.

Jeremiah must have read that passage of Genesis and got impressed. Later, perhaps as a result of a prophetical vision, he wrote that if Israel ever ceases as a People before the Lord forever, the natural laws will go perserk. (Jer. 31:35,36)

We all know that if the natural laws cease to function properly, the result will be universal catastrophes, not only of the size of the Flood but perhaps even of the size that made the dinosaurs extinct. **

 

[swariffin]

**There are four branches: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist. This last one is too humanistic. The Orthodox is the most religious one with about 85 percent who believe and expect an individual Messiah. The Conservative branch, about 50 percent still believe in an individual Messiah. The Reform Movement has almost totally adopted the concept of the Collective Messiah. I mean, they believe in a Messianic era with Israel being the Messiah figure.

Now, Biblical Judaism vis-a-vis the other branches, I would not say opposite but they juxtapose Biblical Judaism as Rabbinical Judaism. I do not consider myself Rabbinical Judaism, although I am not at all against our Rabbis. But I stand against them when I seem to see contradiction between their views and the Scriptures.

The oral Law, for example, is the propriety of Rabbinical Judaism. I don’t take it in the same level with the written Torah, but I do consider it as a system of fences around the written Torah. **

Very interesting, Ben. Thank you. I do like to know more about the Jews. If you believe in Jesus for 20%, I tell you that I do believe in Judaism for 50%. All of them are written in the book we called as the OT.

 

[swariffin]

**
But I stand against them when I seem to see contradiction between their views and the Scriptures.

The oral Law, for example, is the propriety of Rabbinical Judaism. I don’t take it in the same level with the written Torah, but I do consider it as a system of fences around the written Torah. **

Ben, is there a “common” view of the scriptures that is written in your Biblical Judaism? That you all must “adhere” to it?

BTW, I think I will ask you another question in another forum. Sorry for being off topics

 

[Ben_Masada]

Very interesting, Ben. Thank you. I do like to know more about the Jews. If you believe in Jesus for 20%, I tell you that I do believe in Judaism for 50%. All of them are written in the book we called as the OT.

As I can see, you are a much better believer than I am.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, is there a “common” view of the scriptures that is written in your Biblical Judaism? That you all must “adhere” to it?

BTW, I think I will ask you another question in another forum. Sorry for being off topics

**The common view is that the whole of the Written Torah or Biblical Judaism is accepted, with the only difference of interpretation running from literal to metaphorical. Not all Jews are learnt enough to see the Truth through allegories or symbolical language. Now, the “must adhere to” must be named dogma, and we don’t have dogmas in Judaism. The only “must adhere to” is loyalty to Jewish Faith, which is broken when a Jew leaves Judaism to confess another Faith. **

 

[DeusVult09]

Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

Here is a secular account from Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian (37 CE - 95 CE):

“About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders.” (Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2)

I have read this passage in Josephus, as well as the charge of it being a forgery interpolated by the Church. But I don’t see anything in the quotation of Josephus to compromise or contradict the Scriptures. Therefore, I am ready to accept it as legitimate.

Jesus was indeed a wise and virtuous Jew. By the time Josephus wrote this, many Christians would be talking about Jesus as such, and probably two or three of the gospels were out.

As we can see, Josephus left out to mention the Hellenistic part preached about Jesus by Christians. And with regards to Pilate, Josephus did charge him with having been the one who condemned Jesus to the cross, and not the Jews, whom the NT is only too ready to accuse.

Regarding resurrection, there is no indication in Josephus. He says that those who related to him, obviously Christians, would say that Jesus appeared three days after his crucifixion. To appear alive after one’s crucifixion is no evidence that he had died and much less resurrected.

And for being the Messiah, he uses the term “perhaps” based on the word of Christians who would preach about him as such. But Messiah in the Christian sense and not Jewish. The Christian idea about the Messiah pales before the Jewish concept of the one.

Ben

there is much debate over this . Many atheists argue that the whole thing is a forgery because the passage isnt quoted by early church fathers and because Josephus calls Jesus “the Christ” something a non-christian jew wouldn’t say . While it is possible that the words “the christ” are an addition to the text I do think it is genuine because not one manuscript of the Jewish Wars has ever been found without that passage. I also think many people who reject it do so because of their own agenda

 

[Hadi]

I see many here took this topic as an opportunity to ask you some questions…and mine is , Do you believe in the reincarnation ,if yes,when does this cycle end ?

 

[qui_est_ce]

I see many here took this topic as an opportunity to ask you some questions…and mine is , Do you believe in the reincarnation ,if yes,when does this cycle end ?

There is no "re"incarnation. The is the INcarnation. The word made flesh.