Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

[Ben_Masada]

What evidences? You have not presented any.

**I have presented a lot. All in the Scriptures. The problem is that you don’t believe the Scriptures. If I give you a reference of a scholastic source, you don’t believe it. So, it’s my word against yours. I mean, not yours, your Churche’s. **

 

[w_stewart]

I have presented a lot. All in the Scriptures. The problem is that you don’t believe the Scriptures.

Oh I believe in the Scriptures!

If I give you a reference of a scholastic source, you don’t believe it.

Well, I believe in the scholastic source you presented in your first post in this thread. However, that scholastic source NEVER supported your thesis. And you yourself conceded that it was possible that a crucified person might died sooner.

So, it’s my word against yours. I mean, not yours, your Churche’s.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Exactly. It will be awhile before I return and I hope to FINALLY see evidence and not personal opinion.

I asked you for citations on this. I have not been able to find it. Even so did he say that no one died sooner? As I have written, I will be gone for awhile so maybe you can get the necessary cites by then.

**It doesn’t help to give Scriptural evidences to someone who believes only what the Church says. Even if I bring the opinion of a Scholar, you won’t believe. So, what’s the use. **

 

[TheQuestioner]

**Did you know that money speaks volumes? And did you know that the Romans, just like any other soldier, were extremely corrupt? Did you know that Joseph of Arimathea was extremely rich and that the Centurion albeit an officer in the Roman Army was in a tremendous need for a little of the Arimathea’s money? Okay, so take this bag of golden coins, let me take Jesus off the cross and just report back to Pilate that he was already dead, and you will never see us around again. What would you do if you were the Centurion, any different than what he did? I doubt it. **

hmmm you’d think between the taking down of the body, the wrapping of the corpse, the placing of the body in the tomb, and the rolling of the stone someone would have noticed he was alive.

You seem to forget that Joseph did not pay a centurion, he asked Pilate for permission and the pharisees themselves told him to place armed guards at the tomb to make sure Jesus’ disciples didn’t come and take the body away, which means even the pharisees acknowledged that Jesus was dead. But that won’t convince you will it?

 

[Ben_Masada]

hmmm you’d think between the taking down of the body, the wrapping of the corpse, the placing of the body in the tomb, and the rolling of the stone someone would have noticed he was alive.

You seem to forget that Joseph did not pay a centurion, he asked Pilate for permission and the pharisees themselves told him to place armed guards at the tomb to make sure Jesus’ disciples didn’t come and take the body away, which means even the pharisees acknowledged that Jesus was dead. But that won’t convince you will it?

Good! Now, you need to explain to me what were the guards put in there for? No, don’t tell me. I know. To watch the tomb and prevent the approach of any suspect. At the end of that Sabbath when the women went to the tomb to anoint Jesus’ body, they would worry only on how to move the stone, and not about soldiers guarding the tomb. When they got there the stone was removed and there was no guards. Go ahead, I am all ears.

 

[swariffin]

Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

Here is a secular account from Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian (37 CE - 95 CE):

“About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders.” (Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2)

I have read this passage in Josephus, as well as the charge of it being a forgery interpolated by the Church. But I don’t see anything in the quotation of Josephus to compromise or contradict the Scriptures. Therefore, I am ready to accept it as legitimate.

Jesus was indeed a wise and virtuous Jew. By the time Josephus wrote this, many Christians would be talking about Jesus as such, and probably two or three of the gospels were out.

As we can see, Josephus left out to mention the Hellenistic part preached about Jesus by Christians. And with regards to Pilate, Josephus did charge him with having been the one who condemned Jesus to the cross, and not the Jews, whom the NT is only too ready to accuse.

Regarding resurrection, there is no indication in Josephus. He says that those who related to him, obviously Christians, would say that Jesus appeared three days after his crucifixion. To appear alive after one’s crucifixion is no evidence that he had died and much less resurrected.

And for being the Messiah, he uses the term “perhaps” based on the word of Christians who would preach about him as such. But Messiah in the Christian sense and not Jewish. The Christian idea about the Messiah pales before the Jewish concept of the one.

Ben

Do you read history that Pilate was recalled by the emperor and sent to Galia (now France) in 37AD, and committed suicide there? That was done because Pilate could not execute his authority but bending to the Jewish leaders’ plot to free Barabas. The result was, the Roman took offense to the Jewish and destroyed your temple in 70AD. Why would the Roman destroyed your temple? You can’t see history on pieces, my friend.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Good! Now, you need to explain to me what were the guards put in there for? No, don’t tell me. I know. To watch the tomb and prevent the approach of any suspect. At the end of that Sabbath when the women went to the tomb to anoint Jesus’ body, they would worry only on how to move the stone, and not about soldiers guarding the tomb. When they got there the stone was removed and there was no guards. Go ahead, I am all ears.

The women would obviously ask the guards to move the stone.

Actually there were guards there, but an angel of the Lord came and they fainted. The women stayed and the angel told them that Jesus was gone. After that:

Matthew 28 (NIV)

1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. 2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
5The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”
8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

Matthew 28 (NIV)

11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.

You need to read the end of the Gospel of Matthew

 

[w_stewart]

By the way Ben, which Jewish sect are you affiliated to?

 

[jpaul1953]

Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

Here is a secular account from Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian (37 CE - 95 CE):

“About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders.” (Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2)

I have read this passage in Josephus, as well as the charge of it being a forgery interpolated by the Church. But I don’t see anything in the quotation of Josephus to compromise or contradict the Scriptures. Therefore, I am ready to accept it as legitimate.

Jesus was indeed a wise and virtuous Jew. By the time Josephus wrote this, many Christians would be talking about Jesus as such, and probably two or three of the gospels were out.

As we can see, Josephus left out to mention the Hellenistic part preached about Jesus by Christians. And with regards to Pilate, Josephus did charge him with having been the one who condemned Jesus to the cross, and not the Jews, whom the NT is only too ready to accuse.

Regarding resurrection, there is no indication in Josephus. He says that those who related to him, obviously Christians, would say that Jesus appeared three days after his crucifixion. To appear alive after one’s crucifixion is no evidence that he had died and much less resurrected.

And for being the Messiah, he uses the term “perhaps” based on the word of Christians who would preach about him as such. But Messiah in the Christian sense and not Jewish. The Christian idea about the Messiah pales before the Jewish concept of the one.

Ben

Dear Ben Masada,

Do you believe all that is in the Torah?. If yes, say yes. If no, please give me some parts that you may doubt.

Who wrote the history contained in the Torah from outside the Torah? Do you accept that the Torah was passed down orally until a time when it was written? Do you believe it was perfectly written down as God intended?

Please help me and others on these threads to understand more about your Jewish faith than we presently do to further comprehend your intentions here.

I’ve spoken to several Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn over the past few years. They speak of their Messiah, who recently died, and his 7-basic teachings. Do you believe in reincarnation as many of the old Jews, as did some of Jesus’ disciples, and some of the Orthodox do in Brooklyn?

Please help us understand you more.

Thank you,
Jpaul1953

 

[Ben_Masada]

Do you read history that Pilate was recalled by the emperor and sent to Galia (now France) in 37AD, and committed suicide there? That was done because Pilate could not execute his authority but bending to the Jewish leaders’ plot to free Barabas. The result was, the Roman took offense to the Jewish and destroyed your temple in 70AD. Why would the Roman destroyed your temple? You can’t see history on pieces, my friend.

**And the pieces you see History on are so broken that anyone can see that you are making up things. The reason why Pilate was recalled was because he caused a massacre among the Samaritans and these sent an envoy accompanied by a group of the most important among them and formulated an official complaint to Caesar that Pilate was no longer welcome and marring the image of Rome in the Middle East.

They were about to cause a commission to be sent to the Parthians for help. Since the Romans never succeeded to conquer the Partians, Caesar would not be able to handle the Partians in the Israel which was by itself a keg powder of a province. So, the recalling of Pilate and his eventual suicide had nothing to do with the Jews. Nice try though. But next time, study your History a little better.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

The women would obviously ask the guards to move the stone.

**You are engaging on empty speculations. If not, prove to me with a quotation that they were speaking about asking the guards to move the stone. **

Actually there were guards there, but an angel of the Lord came and they fainted. The women stayed and the angel told them that Jesus was gone. After that:

**Then, the angel removed the “sealed” stone and what was inside? NOTHING, NADA! Someone had raised Jesus from there, and probably in the first hours of Friday night, for the tomb to be empty in less than 24 hours. Even the angel could not be used as an eyewitness because when he removed the stone Jesus was no longer inside. **

You need to read the end of the Gospel of Matthew.

And you need to read the beginning. At least, 12:40 where he probably
applied what he learned in his magician course how to find three days and three nights in less than 24 hours. It already sounds like a joke.

 

[Ben_Masada]

By the way Ben, which Jewish sect are you affiliated to?

None. I go to the one closest to my home. It just happens that it is Orthodox. But I would go to if it was Conservative or Reform. My Judaism is Biblical Judaism.

 

[cargau]

Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

Here is a secular account from Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian (37 CE - 95 CE):

Regarding resurrection, there is no indication in Josephus. He says that those who related to him, obviously Christians, would say that Jesus appeared three days after his crucifixion. To appear alive after one’s crucifixion is no evidence that he had died and much less resurrected.

And for being the Messiah, he uses the term “perhaps” based on the word of Christians who would preach about him as such. But Messiah in the Christian sense and not Jewish. The Christian idea about the Messiah pales before the Jewish concept of the one.

Ben

Hi Ben,

Even if Jesus did not die on the cross, how was He able to be “seen” by His disciples after only three days. I get a toothache and I don’t want to be seen after three days!

Jesus was severely scourged and nailed to a cross. I believe He was very close to death before the he was hung on the tree. Indeed, I don’t doubt that He died.

Flavius seems to be willing to acknowledge the possibility that Jesus may have been the Messiah. I believe that is a hard thing to do for most Jews of the time. The evidence must have been reasonably compelling. Or, perhaps the Holy Spirit was working on and with him.

Finally, I would like to ask…How does the Christian understanding of the Messiah “pale” in comparison to the Jewish understanding? The Christian idea is that the Messiah is the savior of the world and the second person of the Trinity…Sounds pretty outstanding to me…

 

[Ben_Masada]

Dear Ben Masada,

Do you believe all that is in the Torah?. If yes, say yes. If no, please give me some parts that you may doubt.

**I believe EVERYTHING in the Torah; but I interpret what is literal as it is, and what is metaphorical where it happens to be. **

Who wrote the history contained in the Torah from outside the Torah?

**How could it be written from inside the Torah? It had to be from outside the Torah. And to me it does not matter, only as long as Jews wrote it and not Gentiles. **

Do you accept that the Torah was passed down orally until a time when it was written?

**Yes, I do. I mean, most of it. Some very little, Moses wrote, especially the Book of the Covenant and the Book of the Law, which are lost. But reference is made in the Torah. **

Do you believe it was perfectly written down as God intended?

God inspired men to write the Torah. If this is what you mean by “as God intended,” so I do.

Please help me and others on these threads to understand more about your Jewish faith than we presently do to further comprehend your intentions here.

**You don’t have to struggle to comprehend my intentions here. I make no secret of them. I am here to defend Judaism from the distortions that Christians cause to it as they use a religious Jew to insert Hellenistic innovations into it. **

I’ve spoken to several Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn over the past few years. They speak of their Messiah, who recently died, and his 7-basic teachings.

**It’s very common to say “Two Jews, three opinions.” It means that Jews have a lot of different ways to believe. Only as long as they don’t confess loyalty to another relilgion, they can remain Jewish. Why? Because belief is not so important in Judaism, but good deeds are. **

Do you believe in reincarnation as many of the old Jews, as did some of Jesus’ disciples, and some of the Orthodox do in Brooklyn?

No, I don’t. In my understanding of the Scriptures, it is a contradiction to the Tanach.

Please help us understand you more.

I hope you do now.

Thank you,
Jpaul1953

You are welcome.
Ben

 

[Ben_Masada]

Hi Ben,

Even if Jesus did not die on the cross, how was He able to be “seen” by His disciples after only three days. I get a toothache and I don’t want to be seen after three days!

**Luke says in Acts 1:1-3 that Jesus spent 40 days on earth AFTER HIS SUFFERING OR PASSION. It does not mean he died or much less resurrected. It could be that he started appearing to his disciples in the last three days. Remember that when Joseph of Arimathea and his men raised Jesus from that tomb, Dr. Nicodemus was together with about 100 pounds of medications to help Joseph with the treatment of Jesus. (John 19:39) After about 30 days he could have appeared to his disciples. And mind you that Luke says, "with convincing proofs that he was alive in flesh and bone. And some of the proofs were that he would eat and drink and… you know what happens at the end of digestion of food. **

Jesus was severely scourged and nailed to a cross. I believe He was very close to death before the he was hung on the tree. Indeed, I don’t doubt that He died.

**You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but scourging of people condemned to the cross was a matter of course in the Roman agenda. (John 19:1)
Jesus was not the only one. And Josephus says that it was not uncommon for crucified to remain on their crosses even up to three of four days still alive. Mind you that Jesus was taken off his cross after about 4 or 5 hours. This is about 95 percent that he survived the cross. **

Flavius seems to be willing to acknowledge the possibility that Jesus may have been the Messiah. I believe that is a hard thing to do for most Jews of the time. The evidence must have been reasonably compelling. Or, perhaps the Holy Spirit was working on and with him.

There are other quotations but complete interpolations by the Church.

Finally, I would like to ask…How does the Christian understanding of the Messiah “pale” in comparison to the Jewish understanding? The Christian idea is that the Messiah is the savior of the world and the second person of the Trinity…Sounds pretty outstanding to me…

**This is totally Hellenistic and an attack to the integrity of Judaism to use a religious Jew to declare that he was God. Moreover, The Christian understanding of the Messiah pales in comparison to the Jewish understanding, because a great number of Jews, including myself, believe that the Messiah is Israel, the Jewish People. Collective, therefory. That’s a far cry from the individual concept. **

 

[swariffin]

**And the pieces you see History on are so broken that anyone can see that you are making up things. The reason why Pilate was recalled was because he caused a massacre among the Samaritans and these sent an envoy accompanied by a group of the most important among them and formulated an official complaint to Caesar that Pilate was no longer welcome and marring the image of Rome in the Middle East.

They were about to cause a commission to be sent to the Parthians for help. Since the Romans never succeeded to conquer the Partians, Caesar would not be able to handle the Partians in the Israel which was by itself a keg powder of a province. So, the recalling of Pilate and his eventual suicide had nothing to do with the Jews. Nice try though. But next time, study your History a little better.**

Why would Pilate massacred the Samaritan for? They did not even create trouble to the Romans. It was the some Jews community who created problems more for the Roman, than the Samaritan. During Pilate reigned in the land of Judea, Caesar had died already. Remember, it was already emperor Augustus ruled in Rome at the birth of Jesus. If Caesar during his time was unable to control Israel, why would the Roman succeded in installing the puppet king of Herod the great?

 

[swariffin]

None. I go to the one closest to my home. It just happens that it is Orthodox. But I would go to if it was Conservative or Reform. My Judaism is Biblical Judaism.

Interesting. How many “branches” of Judaism today? You are opening more of Judaism to me. What is Biblical Judaism as compared to other “branches” of Judaism, then. Sorry for being off topic, but I can’t hold myself from asking. I think that you are allowing me more about Judaism which open my eyes.

 

[jblake]

Ben Masada;:

What would you do if you were the Centurion, any different than what he did? I doubt it.

Do you know what the penalty for a Centurion would be, if he didn’t carry out his orders?

If you don’t, then I suggest you learn. If you do, ponder on how much gold would be required to make that penalty worthwhile. Remember to factor in how much gold the Centurian needs to pay others, so they don’t blab.

jonathon

 

[jblake]

swariffin;:

What is Biblical Judaism as compared to other “branches” of Judaism,

Orthodos Judaism, and Karaite Judaism are the two contemporary forms of Judaism, that most closely approximate the two major forms of Biblical Judaism.

jonathon

 

[Ben_Masada]

Why would Pilate massacred the Samaritan for? They did not even create trouble to the Romans. It was the some Jews community who created problems more for the Roman, than the Samaritan. During Pilate reigned in the land of Judea, Caesar had died already. Remember, it was already emperor Augustus ruled in Rome at the birth of Jesus. If Caesar during his time was unable to control Israel, why would the Roman succeded in installing the puppet king of Herod the great?

**Oh, come on Swariffin, you should know much better than this! Since the first Caesar, every Emperor was a Caesar. This was not a personal name but a title throughout several generations of chiefs of State in Rome. At the time of Jesus, Augustus was Caesar, at the time of Paul Nero was Caesar, and so forth.

Regarding Pilate and the Samaritans, any day that Pilate felt like crucifying some Jews to feel better, any reason would be a good reason. If I don’t make a mistake, the Samaritan massacre was related to a tower that some Roman soldiers had occupied and refused to vacate, or I am not too sure about the reason. I’ll check it out what was the real reason. But Josephus says that it was a real massacre to cause Pilate to be removed in shame.

Regarding installing the puppet Herod the Great as king, it was a Roman policy to do that. They preferred to divide the provinces into several puppet kings to share the power among many in order to prevent insurrection among heads of State. **