B
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
B
Bob_Crowley
Guest
Bob Crowley;5565140:
Maybe a few lasted days, but I suspect they’d have been the minority, the toughest, just as for example only 4percent of Jews in Hitler’s concentration camps survived. I doubt whether I’d survive for days, personally.I lifted this from someone else whom I assume knew what he was talking about.
“This punishment began by subjecting the sufferer to scourging which meant striking the backs of the criminals with a whip which ended with a square tip. The number of strikes were to exceed forty. It was the custom to never go beyond 38 since in most cases the body of the criminal could not support such punishment and usually expired before the 40th strike.”
The number of strikes were NEVER to exceed forty. Some, albeit very few, did die with the scourging. Usually from side effects, like a heart failure.
Indeed, those who lasted for two, three or even four days on their crosses were perhaps 4 or 5 percent. I believe Jesus survived the cross for being removed in hours.
The record states Christ was crucified about 9am in the morning, and died about 3pm, with darkness coming over the land around noon.
I believe that darkness was personal, due to fainting, which the crucifieds would experience in bouts of several times in the course of their continual hanging.
There were a couple of ancient Roman historians who apparently alluded to this darkness, but they are cross references only. It’s also obvious the ancients knew the moon and the sun were involved in eclipses, and that the darkness could not have been an eclipse as it was the time of the full moon, in which the case the moom is on the wrong side of the earth. The Passover was always held, and still is, on a full moon.
These so-called testemonies of Roman Historians I consider them as sausage fillers to confirm evidences of divinity in Jesus.
One of the Gospels states that Pilate was “surprised” that Christ had died already. So six hours would appear to be a shorter period than normal. However that’s what the Gospel states.
The “darkness” was experienced by others, and not just the Gospel writer. The centurion in charge of the execution was certainly impressed by the events. You’re pretty quick to discount historical records when they don’t suit your preconceived notions, ignoring Roman historians for example when it suits you. Do you do that with all ancient historical sources, or only those which might allude to Christ’s divinity?
Why do you accept Josephus’ records as reliable for example, considering he was mainly writing for a Roman audience?
A
adrift
Guest
Ben I posted this once perhaps but perhaps you missed it.**Very impressive research this of yours. Even the case of the trial of James, the brother of Jesus in the Testimonium Falvianum I consider it a forgery, because the Jewish Sanhedrin would never condem one to death in a matter of a day or two. Besides, if the alleged reason why the Jewish authorities delivered Jesus to Pilate was, as the gospel writer claims, because the Jews had lost the authority to condemn one to death during the Roman tenure in Israel, how come they had acquired that power back to condemn James and before James, Stephen? It makes no sense. It’s only obvious that there is forgery also here. **
The answer to your question is given by William Carroll an historian.
I am going to paraphrase what he said because it is very lengthy. Pilate had been dismissed and a Marcellus was appointed his replacement by Vitellius who died and like all official appointments lapsed with the death of the emperor. Gaius appointed a Marullus. Gaois permitted a greater degree of autonomy to the provinces than had Tiberius. . Gaius appointed Marcellus within a few days of becoming emperor but because of the vagaries of sea travel the receipt of his appointment or the general uncertainty about the policy of the new emperor, together with the disgrace of Pilate and its cause, may have persuaded Marcellus not to intervene with the Sanhedrin. To shorten it the prohibition against the Jews administrating the death penalty was temporarily suspended.
E
exoflare
Guest
So then why do you even bother mentioning it? It does nothing for your argument.No, under no circumstances, the word some means all.
It was not uncommon, he says, for some of the crucified to remain alive on their crosses even up to three or four days. The Romans crucified thousands. Let’s say about a hundred could explain the word "some."
W
w_stewart
Guest
jpaul1953;5553146:
Proof please.Sorry jpaul, but Jesus was never Hellenistic. And he never had anything to do with the Messiah of Greeks and Christians. That Messiah was Paul, not Jesus. This Christ you are talking about was an imaginary entity born in the Hellenistic mind of a Diaspora former Jew, who was Paul. The connection with Jesus is that he needed someone to impersonate his Christ, and Jesus became the best nest for the cuckcoo bird.
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
Ben Masada;5565309:
**The surprise of Pilate that Jesus had already died only confirms the fact that it was not uncommon for crucifieds to remain on their crosses even days still alive. But he didn’t believe. So, he sent the Centurion, who was in charge of the crucifixions that day to check it out. Lucky that it was the Centurion who probably Joseph had in mind to talk to.One of the Gospels states that Pilate was “surprised” that Christ had died already. So six hours would appear to be a shorter period than normal. However that’s what the Gospel states.
The “darkness” was experienced by others, and not just the Gospel writer. The centurion in charge of the execution was certainly impressed by the events. You’re pretty quick to discount historical records when they don’t suit your preconceived notions, ignoring Roman historians for example when it suits you. Do you do that with all ancient historical sources, or only those which might allude to Christ’s divinity?
Why do you accept Josephus’ records as reliable for example, considering he was mainly writing for a Roman audience?
The gospel writer was not even there to experience any darkness. And the Centurion was impressed in what sense, that Jesus was indeed son of God? And then this was the Centurion who ordered the spear-piercing, when he didn’t have to? Does this make any sense? Then, they are no historical records. They were written by non-Jews with a Pauline agenda to promote Christianity.
Josephus was a secular Historian. He did not write anything to compromise Judaism.**
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
**It is interesting and possible. But it still tells me that the Jewish leaders did not condemn Jesus because the reason was political and not religious. **Ben I posted this once perhaps but perhaps you missed it.
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
**Oh it does! And it does a lot. It increases the odds that Jesus indeed survived the cross. **So then why do you even bother mentioning it? It does nothing for your argument.
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
Ben Masada;5564938:
The proff resides in the reading of the NT without Christian preconceived notions.Proof please.
B
Bob_Crowley
Guest
Bob Crowley;5567911:
It was not the primary purpose of the Gospel writers to compromise Judaism either. All the disciples, to a man, were Jews. Every one of them.**The surprise of Pilate that Jesus had already died only confirms the fact that it was not uncommon for crucifieds to remain on their crosses even days still alive. But he didn’t believe. So, he sent the Centurion, who was in charge of the crucifixions that day to check it out. Lucky that it was the Centurion who probably Joseph had in mind to talk to.
The gospel writer was not even there to experience any darkness. And the Centurion was impressed in what sense, that Jesus was indeed son of God? And then this was the Centurion who ordered the spear-piercing, when he didn’t have to? Does this make any sense? Then, they are no historical records. They were written by non-Jews with a Pauline agenda to promote Christianity.
Josephus was a secular Historian. He did not write anything to compromise Judaism.**
Paul also was a Jew. In fact you could say he was the most influential Jewish writer of all time.
The primary purpose of the Gospel writers was to point to Jesus of Nazareth, who He claimed to be, what He said and did, and His death and resurrection.
B
Benjamin8o8
Guest
Ben, I mean to ask you something. Why do you believe God would allow such a deception to occur making so many souls believe that a Man who claimed to be the Son of God died on the Cross and 3 days resurrected from the tomb. Which lead many Jews to believe in the Christian concept of the Messiah. Thus also making Christianity the largest faith on this planet right now. Do you really believe God would allow people being deceived by this event if it indeed did not occur according the New Testament?**Yes, but Josephus says that some of the crucified would remain on their crosses even up to three or four days till death reached them. If Jesus was taken off the cross after four or five hours, it’s only obvious that he did not die on the cross. Mine is an argument of Logic. One does not have to speack for those who can think and read between the lines. That’s what Detectives do best and are proved right at the end.
Regarding your saying that the Jews had no authority to condemn a man to death, how do you explain Luke’s alleged condemnation of Stephen by the Sanhedrin? How do you explain the condemnation of the woman caught in adultery and taken to be stoned? How do you explain Paul getting letters to arrest and kill Nazarenes in Damascus? And so forth? The name is contradictions, did you know that?**
Your thoughts please.
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
Ben Masada;5573345:
**And I agree with you 101 percent that all the 12 Apostles of Jesus were Jews, but none of their writings was approved into the Canon of the NT by the Fathers of the Church, due to their controversial character vis-a-vis the writings of Paul.It was not the primary purpose of the Gospel writers to compromise Judaism either. All the disciples, to a man, were Jews. Every one of them.
Paul also was a Jew. In fact you could say he was the most influential Jewish writer of all time.
The primary purpose of the Gospel writers was to point to Jesus of Nazareth, who He claimed to be, what He said and did, and His death and resurrection.
Paul was also a Jew until he severed with Judaism to found Christianity in Antioch. (Acts 11:26) Since then, his loyalty was to another religion. He was indeed a phenomenon of a religious leader and great Hellenistic writer.
Jesus never claimed to be anything that was unJewish to claim. All the claims about him were made by others, especially Paul. And from Paul, his Hellenistic Christian disciples. Resurrection did not happened. It would be a contradiction to the Scriptures.**
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
**It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with man. God does not interfere where freewill is in process. Jesus never claimed to be the son of God, because he was a Jew, and this claim is not Jewish. I believe 95 percent that Jesus survived the cross and left Israel with his wife and Joseph of Arimathea. Therefore, there was no such a thing as resurrection. It was all fabricated by Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone.Ben, I mean to ask you something. Why do you believe God would allow such a deception to occur making so many souls believe that a Man who claimed to be the Son of God died on the Cross and 3 days resurrected from the tomb. Which lead many Jews to believe in the Christian concept of the Messiah. Thus also making Christianity the largest faith on this planet right now. Do you really believe God would allow people being deceived by this event if it indeed did not occur according the New Testament?
Your thoughts please.
Jews who believe in the Christian concept of Messiah are the moribunds of Hosea 4:6, who are perishing for lack of knowledge. Right now, the largest faith on this planet is Islam
if I am to remind you. And growing at a much faster pace. And I am sure you agree with me that’s no reason for them to hold a monopoly on the Truth. Do you believe that their Prophet Muhammad went to Heaven, just as you claim Jesus did? Of course, not! How come God allows so many Muslims to be deceived?**
B
Benjamin8o8
Guest
Even though I agree with you to an extend that God does not interfere with mans own free will I do have to add though, if we take a look at Gods mysterious will, God in fact does fulfill His own plan through mans action. So basically even though we choose our own actions God is behind everything. Therefore I do have to say God allows and disallows certain things to happen so HIS will not ours be done.**It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with man. God does not interfere where freewill is in process. Jesus never claimed to be the son of God, because he was a Jew, and this claim is not Jewish. I believe 95 percent that Jesus survived the cross and left Israel with his wife and Joseph of Arimathea. Therefore, there was no such a thing as resurrection. It was all fabricated by Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone.
Jews who believe in the Christian concept of Messiah are the moribunds of Hosea 4:6, who are perishing for lack of knowledge. Right now, the largest faith on this planet is Islam
if I am to remind you. And growing at a much faster pace. And I am sure you agree with me that’s no reason for them to hold a monopoly on the Truth. Do you believe that their Prophet Muhammad went to Heaven, just as you claim Jesus did? Of course, not! How come God allows so many Muslims to be deceived?**
With that said it would be very difficult for me to accept that God allowed early Saints to be burned to death because they believed Jesus Christ is True God and True Man. These saints weren’t just regular people, they preached love and peace till the day they slowly expired through tormenting deaths. Sure it was their will to convert and believe, but why would God give them such a loving motive to die for a Man who “allegedly” survived a crucifixion which lead so many people to believe He truly was who He said He was. The Son of The Living God.
Islam is not the largest faith in the world it might be growing faster then other faiths but for right now Christianity is the largest religion on this planet. Now I have to agree with you (without contradicting myself) that God does not interfere with our free will. If you take a look at Holy Scripture Jesus clearly said “by their fruits you should know them”, If you now glance at Islamic history Islam was expanding by force. This is how Mohamed gained power, not through mass conversions by curing the blind or making the lame walk, but by simply forcing his religion on others. As you might know after all these years, Islam hasn’t changed a bit. Countries like Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and so so many more refuse to allow people practice their religion of their own choosing. If you´re not Muslim you get persecuted. This is fact, we see this all the time, every day. If this is not proof that the devil is behind this then I don´t know what is. You must be very ignorant or have evil intentions to convert to Islam. Christianity on the contrary did not expand through Military actions. The more people got slaughtered in the name of Jesus, the more miracles and other great things occurred which motivated non believers to become Christians. So basically your analogy is flawed.
Muslims are not deceived, they want to be Mohamed-like who was hungry for money and power. Christians however has to be deceived if Christianity is not true. You must admit that God basically allowed Christians to be deceived by the devil, and their motives behind their actions could not have been love but something else.
Take a look at Saint Paul’s letter on Love Ben…
If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have prophetic powers and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, enough to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions and hand over my body to be burnt but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind. Love is not envious, boastful, arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way. Love is not irritable or resentful. Love does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. Now faith, hope and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love (13:1-8, 13)
How Ben just how can you be against this man???
E
exoflare
Guest
“Odds” are for poker. Please try taking this seriously.**Oh it does! And it does a lot. It increases the odds that Jesus indeed survived the cross. **
W
w_stewart
Guest
Are you suggesting that we Christians interpret the NT through Judaistic lenses?The proff resides in the reading of the NT without Christian preconceived notions.
That is preposterous!
B
Bob_Crowley
Guest
I personally had the peculiar experience of my father appearing in my room the night he died. His body was several kilometres away in the flat where he died. He started with an apology for his lifelong cruelty, we argued and conversed, and at the end he disappeared with one almighty, terrifying scream whilst trying to ward something off. As far as I’m concerned, there’s life after death, and judgment too.**It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with man. God does not interfere where freewill is in process. Jesus never claimed to be the son of God, because he was a Jew, and this claim is not Jewish. I believe 95 percent that Jesus survived the cross and left Israel with his wife and Joseph of Arimathea. Therefore, there was no such a thing as resurrection. It was all fabricated by Paul about 30 years after Jesus had been gone.
Jews who believe in the Christian concept of Messiah are the moribunds of Hosea 4:6, who are perishing for lack of knowledge. Right now, the largest faith on this planet is Islam
if I am to remind you. And growing at a much faster pace. And I am sure you agree with me that’s no reason for them to hold a monopoly on the Truth. Do you believe that their Prophet Muhammad went to Heaven, just as you claim Jesus did? Of course, not! How come God allows so many Muslims to be deceived?**
Christ rose from the dead. Peter ran to the tomb and it was empty. The guards were like “dead men”, yet it was a capital offence to sleep on duty as a Roman guard. The women were met by either an angel or two angels (slight discrepancies between accounts are a sign of honest witnesses) who informed them He had risen.
You seem to put more faith in a gnostic gospel because it suits your purposes than the actual Gospels.
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
**You paint too rose a picture of Christianity. I don’t think you are aware of Church History to talk about Christianity as if it has been a paragon of justice and charity. Read about the Crusades and you will wonder why the Church had to kill so many Jews during three centuries of persecutions. Read about the Inquisition and ask yourself why the Church had to burn so many Jews with its Christian “Autos-da-Fe?”. Christianity on the contrary did not expand through Military actions. The more people got slaughtered in the name of Jesus, the more miracles and other great things occurred which motivated non believers to become Christians. So basically your analogy is flawed.
And then, religious pogroms and shutting Jews in ghethos to keep the “cursed” race ostracized from society? There has never been a religious organization more antisemitic than the Church. **
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
What is the problem with using “odds”? Don’t you understand metaphorical language?“Odds” are for poker. Please try taking this seriously.
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
Absolutely not! If you did that we would not have suffered so much antisemitic persecutions throughout History.Are you suggesting that we Christians interpret the NT through Judaistic lenses?
That is preposterous!
- Status
- Not open for further replies.