Flaws with Theistic Evolution

  • Thread starter Thread starter salvereginadude
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The tricktser argument is a poor one. Don’t use it anymore. Our limited ability to fully see reality can make it appear that way, but that is our problem…
Coming from a Baptist background, I have heard pastors try and claim that Satan is trying to trick us with dinosaur bones. I do not believe that, but it is an argument used by some fundamentalists and needs to be addressed despite its illogicality’s.
 
Nita << A question for any evolutionists on the forum. What real scientific evidence exists to support evolution? >>

Ah ha, you haven’t been here very long! Check back the previous 4.5 billion threads on the topic! But here’s some…

Very Short Answer
Short Answer
Long Answer
Very Long Answer

You aren’t going to directly observe a fish turn into an amphibian, a land mammal into a whale, or an ape-like ancestor into a homo sapiens, but the evidence tells us that’s what happened. These things take time.

Nita << I’m not asking to be facetious or sarcastic; I would really like to know. To my knowledge, there is none. >>

Naw there’s enough. A couple of talks by Ken Miller will also do the trick. If you are too lazy to read. 😃

Ken Miller in Ohio Jan 2006

Phil P
 
Nita << A question for any evolutionists on the forum. What real scientific evidence exists to support evolution? >>

Ah ha, you haven’t been here very long! Check back the previous 4.5 billion threads on the topic! But here’s some…

Very Short Answer
Short Answer
Long Answer
Very Long Answer

Thanks for the links. I’m a reader, not a listener!! Went thru the very short, and short. Not impressed by anything there. So I’m heading into the Long and Very Long. That will take some time.

Nita

You aren’t going to directly observe a fish turn into an amphibian, a land mammal into a whale, or an ape-like ancestor into a homo sapiens, but the evidence tells us that’s what happened. These things take time.

Nita << I’m not asking to be facetious or sarcastic; I would really like to know. To my knowledge, there is none. >>

Naw there’s enough. A couple of talks by Ken Miller will also do the trick. If you are too lazy to read. 😃

Ken Miller in Ohio Jan 2006

Phil P
 
Philvaz,
Have no idea what I did to make my response appear in the format that it did (post #43). The message I wanted to post appears in the middle of it.
Nita
 
When I embraced Catholicism one of the things I loved about it was how it allowed for the faithful to hold the theories of evolution as valid and not contradictory with Scripture because the Creation account in Genesis is not necessarily meant to be taken literally, even though it can be.

At my LCMS school we began a unit on evolution today. The pastor said that you cannot be Christian and believe in theistic evolution, and he gave proof for this which was pretty outstanding. He said that if animals evolved into the bodies of humans over a course of millions of years how could death be allowed in this equation? Death, he said is a direct result of original sin, why was there death if the sin had not occured yet? Because, obviously, the earth isn’t capable of holding unlimited amounts of animals for this great amount of time between Creation and the Fall, there are some serious flaws in this theory. He said if Christians still believe in theistic evolution in spite of this fact it erases the need for a Savior and everything that Jesus did on the Cross.

Up until today I have been a very avid supporter of theistic evolution, but the point my teacher raised did seem to make a lot of sense. Ever sense he said it I really have been trying to come up with a good argument for it. I’ve come up with a weak one but it’s an argument. It goes as follows: Sin is something that does not confine animals, our teacher even mentioned today that animals do not go to heaven. If sin does not control animals maybe death would have been natural for them? I know this is a very weak argument.

I’d like your insight on the topic because I very much would like to believe in theistic evolution! Thanks!
The two Doctors of the Church who I turn to when facing such questions are Augustine and Aquinas. (You might be asking yourself, “what can someone from the 4th and 13th Centuries tell me about evolution?” The answer is a lot, because there is a lot of philosophy involved in science.)

Augustine, in his writings on Genesis (Against the Manichees), interprets Gen. 3:17 “I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing” as a way of demonstrating physical death in humans. He basically writes that God is essentially telling Eve that she will die as do the animals, and that death is something necessary of beastly existence. So, how do we explain the reason for animals dying? One theory is “reverse engineering” as one poster has already mentioned.

Aquinas also deals with “death and other defects” and whether they are natural to man. In this he states that in the state of innocence, man’s matter was subject to his rational soul or form. At the fall, however, his rational form (which was responsible for his immortality) became subject to his material makeup. Therefore, man could die just as the beasts. From what I can glean from Aquinas as well as Catholic Tradition, only man was created for eternal communion with God. Therefore only man was ever immortal.

Death, quite possibly, is a necessary component of material being that is not informed by rationality. One might ask how a good God could be permissive of death in animals. Well, animals are not self-conscious (as far as we can tell) and therefore there existence is one of “here and now.” For them to die is not good, but not morally evil.

It boils down to a simple idea: For something to have a body means it is mutable. Mutability without rational form means corruption. Therefore, all that is not rational is liable to corruption and hence animals die even without original sin.

I think your teacher needs to make a distinction between death of humans and death of animals. Death entered the world FOR MAN because of original sin, but for the beasts, it is possible that they were created only to serve the higher orders of being (aka rational being.)

I say, believe away in theistic evolution, for God can do all that is possible.
 
So anyway, it would be somewhat silly to hold a position that contradicts science. Or at least, one shouldn’t be opposed to the idea that science might “prove” to a certain extent that creation is a false idea. One, at that point, musn’t hold on to a faith in direction creation as happened in Genesis for the story as was told in Genesis isn’t necessary to our faith.

I hope this makes sense.
Zahmir,

I hope you meant “Creationism might be proven false” and not “creation.” Because if you believe creation can be proven false, I want you to show me an uncaused cause as well as to show me how an infinite regress is possible. I think you meant creationism, right?
 
Zahmir;1623729:
I

The account in Genesis is allegorical and not factual. It was written in a way a desert nomad of the time could grasp the idea. As a literal work it is not nec. to the Faith but the message of Genesis is. Namely, God created the universe and all that is in it. He created it for us. He created it with order. He is the supreme master of it all.
Steppen,

I agree with everything you said here but I think you forgot something. The linchpin of the Christian faith is in the doctrine of original sin. It is fundamental to our faith that we descended from two human parents, otherwise more than Mary and Jesus would be sinless. So that is something I think we MUST take from Genesis, as it is necessary to the faith.
 
When I embraced Catholicism one of the things I loved about it was how it allowed for the faithful to hold the theories of evolution as valid and not contradictory with Scripture because the Creation account in Genesis is not necessarily meant to be taken literally, even though it can be.

At my LCMS school we began a unit on evolution today. The pastor said that you cannot be Christian and believe in theistic evolution, and he gave proof for this which was pretty outstanding. He said that if animals evolved into the bodies of humans over a course of millions of years how could death be allowed in this equation? Death, he said is a direct result of original sin, why was there death if the sin had not occured yet? Because, obviously, the earth isn’t capable of holding unlimited amounts of animals for this great amount of time between Creation and the Fall, there are some serious flaws in this theory. He said if Christians still believe in theistic evolution in spite of this fact it erases the need for a Savior and everything that Jesus did on the Cross.

It does no such thing, because one perfectly well believe in a (or the) Fall & believe in theistic evolution. A Saviour & Redeemer is still needed. The nature of God, & of his dealings with men, is not affected by theistic evolution.​

Up until today I have been a very avid supporter of theistic evolution, but the point my teacher raised did seem to make a lot of sense. Ever sense he said it I really have been trying to come up with a good argument for it. I’ve come up with a weak one but it’s an argument. It goes as follows: Sin is something that does not confine animals, our teacher even mentioned today that animals do not go to heaven. If sin does not control animals maybe death would have been natural for them? I know this is a very weak argument.

I’d like your insight on the topic because I very much would like to believe in theistic evolution! Thanks!

As to death, I don’t know the answer. St.Paul in Romans 5 (whom you seem to have in mind ?) can’t be quoted against evolution, theistic or otherwise, simply because he does not pay any attention to the possibility. Quite how or why an author living all of 1800 years before Darwin should do so, is not clear. And what an author does not consider, he cannot be said to deny or to affirm. He was discussing the issue of death and sin as it presented itself to him - somehow, Christians have to hold on to his doctrine, while teaching & believing it in a form which will make sense today, when much more is known about the past of the world than could have been known 1900 years ago.​

 
Zahmir,

I hope you meant “Creationism might be proven false” and not “creation.” Because if you believe creation can be proven false, I want you to show me an uncaused cause as well as to show me how an infinite regress is possible. I think you meant creationism, right?
yeah yeah, sorry. I meant the idea that Creation happened as it is found in the Bible: Creationism. Thanks for clarifying that.

I am also a fan of Aristotle.
 
IRC Quantum theory does allow for an uncaused cause and some pretty funky other things as well.
Quantum theory is about as far into the depths of science as we can go. I believe it is the epitome of science. In fact, the whole idea of “probability” strikes a chord in my brain. That is, one could choose to believe in God, or one could choose to believe in science.

In other words, perhaps the “answer” to quantum theory is faith. Sounds interesting, doesn’t it?
 
… Sounds interesting, doesn’t it?
Not particularly

Quantum theory is just a model based on mathematics and correlated to observable data. There is no faith required.

Personally I don’t care for either/or solutions.
 
UPDATE: a must hear 2006 talk by Francis Collins 👍

From American Scientific Affiliation site

MP3 only and Real Video

You can also grab the entire video, but you have to know the “trick” – look for the location of the full .RM file inside the .RAM plain text file…

Phil P
I just listened to that talk, and let me just say…WOW! That was an inspiring talk by a believer who is neck deep in biological study. Everyone who’s remotely interested in the topic of Evolution and Theism needs to watch that video. It won’t be as inspiring to everyone, I’m sure, but for me as someone who considers myself radically Theistic and radically “empiricist” in the sense that I have a rabid hunger for all available data that my senses can accumulate, it was both informative and moving. I especially loved the quote at the end by Benjamin B. Warfield.

That talk is the summary of my passion for “Thomistic” studies, and I think every Christian, but especially every Catholic, should take it to heart. The only thing I can say beyond the praise is “Why isn’t this man a Catholic?!?!?!” 😛

Thanks for sharing it, PhilVaz! 👍

God bless!
 
IRC Quantum theory does allow for an uncaused cause and some pretty funky other things as well.
If you’re talking about virtual particles, no. Or at least that isn’t my understanding from reading it (and that’s the oft-cited ‘uncaused cause’) - particles forming out of a vacuum is seen in quantum theory, but a vacuum contains energy (zero-point energy, cosmological constant, etc.)

Quantum mechanics are very tricky and the philosophy of it is fun to say the least. But I’ve heard the claim that VP are ex nihilo on a regular basis, and at least from what I’ve read, that’s not the case.
 
Salve Regina Dude,

My personal explanation for the presence of death before the Fall is what Douglas Adams called “reverse temporal engineering.” The effects of the Fall worked backwards in time as well as forwards in time, subjecting the whole of Creation to futility.

One of your respondents has already mentioned the problems with Young Earth Creationism as running counter to some rather obvious observations of science on the age of the earth.
  • Liberian
…Could be…good theory, since in Christ’s death, the sins of those not yet commited, already have been forgiven…

My personal theory of the death spoken of by God (on that day, you will die) was Paradise lost (spiritual death). In my opinion, Adam and Eve existed in Paradise before life began on earth. Physical death, in my opinion,“could” involve the process of
the soul ever growing and transforming (evolving) in nature in order to know God in an increasing dephtness.I also “personally” believe that Heaven will not be the final destiny, but that somehow we will continue to change and increase in nature…this process could be contiued indefinitely, since God is infinite in nature.

Andre
 
I agree.
Amazing how much faith and trust we put in current scientific methods of dating. I am not a physicist, and am not aware of all the methods used to date the earth. But I do recall reading in the Britannica Enc. (forgot where-its been several years ago) about how carbon dating is based on several assumptions.
All scientific methods are based on some assumptions, such as that the laws of physics are constant, that the material you are studying hasn’t been exposed to any unusual stresses, that work done by previous scientists and generally considered to be correct is in fact correct. Carbon dating is no different.

Atmospheric carbon dioxide contains a small proportion of mildly radioactive C14, because of processes high in the Earth’s atmosphere. When this CO2 becomes incorporated into organic matter, it decays into C14 at a constant rate. Thus ages up to about 10,000 years old can be measured pretty accurately, assuming of course that the specimen acquired carbon in the normal manner, that atmospheric concentrations were relatively constant, that the fundamental physical laws governing decay rates have not changed, and so on.

Carbon dating isn’t very useful for dating rocks. There are other methods, such as counting decay tracks in quartz crystals, or measuring ratios of potassium to argon. They work on essentially the same principle, but with much bigger time scales.
And I don’t remember if this was one of them, or if it’s just a thought I’ve had. My understanding is that carbon dating is based on behavior of atoms in current physical envionment. Now, who can even imagine what physical factors might have been present at the “big bang” and what effects they might have produced on the molecular and radioactive level.
Carbon dating might not well work for events close to the big bang. However 12,000 years ago is, in Big Bang time, effectively the present. We can date the Earth of about 5 billion years old, using a variety of methods inclufding potassium / argon. Then we know that at least one star must have gone through its life cycle to create the heavy elements that the Earth is comprised of. This gives an estimate of about 15 billion years for the age of the universe, which is also supported by measuring red shifts - the rate at which galaxies are flying apart.

Though the dating is very provisional, numbers are not simply plucked out of thin air.
A question for any evolutionists on the forum. What *real *scientific evidence exists to support evolution? I’m not asking to be facetious or sarcastic; I would really like to know. To my knowledge, there is none. (I’m not interested in scientific conjecture or opinion- no matter how esteemed the scientist) Would appreciate a website link if nothing else.
The fossil record shows evolution. Natural selection is a mathematical tautology given descent with modification. We now understand the molecular basis of genetics and of mutations. So we know how mutations arise, how they affect the proteins built by the living organisms, and how changes to proteins might affect survival. So the whole theory is as watertight as anything in science can be.
 
The opposition to theistic evolution goes back a long way as the following remarks by G. K. Chesterton will show from his Straws in the Wind.

It is simply a manifest fact that the modern sceptical attack on Christianity had begun a hundred years before it took any particular turn towards biology or the modern material sciences. Voltaire and his contemporaries derided the Catholic system exactly as Lucretius or Julian might have derided it, on general grounds of skeptical philosophy. But Voltaire derided almost as much the beginnings of modern material science, and roared with laughter at the very notion of a fossil fish bone being found in the mountains.

The whole rationalistic attack on Christianity was in full blast, and had been going on for quite a long time, before it was suggested that the fish bone also could be used as a weapon against the Cross. Europe was full of free-thinkers, and organized into vast societies, especially secret societies, for attack upon the Church, before any English naturalists began to advance evolutionary arguments against the Mistakes of Moses. The imperfect hypothesis of Evolution, the mistaken hypothesis of Darwinism, were seized upon eagerly as weapons by men who had already been all their lives in the war. These men tried to exaggerate and misrepresent the scientific suggestions, so as to turn them into contradictions of the great principles of faith and morals of which I have spoken. But few of them would really stretch so far and most of them have already snapped.
 
steppenwolf1218;1623745:
Steppen,

I agree with everything you said here but I think you forgot something. The linchpin of the Christian faith is in the doctrine of original sin. It is fundamental to our faith that we descended from two human parents, otherwise more than Mary and Jesus would be sinless. So that is something I think we MUST take from Genesis, as it is necessary to the faith.

Absolutely. I agree that Original Sin is crucial to our Faith. I didn’t even think about it let alone consider it for my argument mainly because that is more of a theological nature rather than an apologetic one towards justifying faith with science. There’s no doubt we came from two human parents. The question remains is where did they come from precisely aside from God. Oddly enough, the precise missing link between humans and primates lies somewhere yet to be discovered. That’s not to say that it won’t be discovered nor does it imply that scientists won’t be able to determine exactly how it happened. At some point God infused souls into a couple of creatures and they were able to rationalize and deduce though. An atheist might attempt to explain all of that away by citing the complexities of the human brain that was challenged and grew bit by bit for the last million years until it reached the state it is in today. That may be countered by citing such species as the dog or porpoise who both have unusually high reasoning compacities. Primates such as the chimpanzee also possess a high level of intelligence as opposed to other members of the animal kingdom. It’s even speculated that extinct dinosaur species like the velociraptor may have been above average in intelligence based on the skull cavity where the brain would have been plus what facts can be determined about how they lived based on fossil records. All of these support that deductive reasoning can be developed by certain species of animals. However, only the human race has reached the level of intelligence that is as far beyond the intelligence of even the most advanced life forms. This abnormality doesn’t fit into the scope of evolution and would point to the possibility of a greater force at work. Does this undermine the theory of evolution? Absolutely not. God is omnipotent. God is greater than and beyond creation and even time. If that statement is to be held true, then why wouldn’t God create the highest best method in which to create and to set up laws of physics and biology by which that creation is governed?
 
The tricktser argument is a poor one. Don’t use it anymore. Our limited ability to fully see reality can make it appear that way, but that is our problem…

The “trickster” ploy is one that is utilized in explaining away the findings of science. It is a poor one but that is on the part of YEC and not myself.

I do agree that our senses can never fully be trusted, however, when it comes to faith it is different. God will not trick anyone into believing or not believing. It is our choice to make from our own free will. There are enough stumbling blocks in our way from Satan and our own pride. God is not about to add to it with such nonsense as putting fossils in the ground to fool us. Do the words from Jesus…a house divided against itself…hold any meaning for you here with that argument.

Finally, was your reply a suggestion or a directive? I do pray it was the former.
Take care
Dennis
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top