Follow up question: What voting issue could possibly outweigh the murder of millions of unborn babies?

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Victoria33 said:
No, it doesn’t. The original poster who said :“must” was not me, therefore, that was a falsehood to use a polite word. Following your advice, the conversation can not even be had. All I said was that is not what the Catechism says.

If the Catechism says we can support infanticide and abortion, please kindly, bring it on. I want to see a source.
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Did I not quote you? I’m pretty sure I directly quoted what you posted and gave it a plain reading.

If you think I have remotely suggested we can support infanticide or abortion (which are actually different things), I don’t think you’re reading my posts, either.

Look at the bright side, though: I’m giving up CAF for Lent. You won’t have me to deal with tomorrow.
 
Peeps said:
–the privately-run programs and centers in our city that actually get down in the trenches and provide real help (not just a check) to pregnant women and their children and families are staffed with REPUBLICANS, not Democrats.
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As that sort of hiring practices are illegal, I’m sure that the centers you speak of follow EEOC guidelines in hiring.

What I find beautiful is the work with women in crisis pregnancies that I have been part of are places where people lay their politics, their religious affiliation, their societal class, outside the door and work together. There was one center that tried to open here in town, it was very vocally tied to a certain political party, it went out of business in 2 years 😦

We have to stop making politics out of real people with real struggles.
 
US already does tons for refugees. We’ve sent hospital ships to Venezuela, we have given millions to help them, help people in the Middle East, help people in Mexico.

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We don’t help the Venezuelans enough, but we are helping them.


If we are all so concerned about helping out the poorest, then, make that the system we use, not if they come through Mexico but who is poorest and send jets out to get them, it be Africa, Haiti, Asia, Honduras, wherever they are. Poorest OR whose life is in the most danger. If these are the priorities, then do it. I don’t think just because someone crosses the borderline, that means, they are in that condition.

Some data says we have 260K Venezuelan refugees in the US, 200K in Spain and most in Colombia and other Latin American nations. There is conflicting info. They are not all given citizenship.

But if anyone asserts, we are not helping out refugees, I find that wrong.
 
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Nice. We who agree word for word with the Catechism are Nazis? Wow.
 
EWTN is posting their personal opinion. They do not speak for Holy Mother Church.

American Catholics are to turn to the USCCB documents (linked many times).
 
I really didn’t mean what I wrote as a personal equivalence - I’m sorry if it sounded that way. I am very concerned for life - and babies in the womb are, as the Catechism makes clear, human persons and are due all regard and respect that any human person is due - and the right to life is first among any list of rights.
 
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Peeps said:
We also have a great pregnancy life care center staffed entirely with volunteers, and the board is made up of influential and respected Christian women from both Catholic and Protestant churches in our area, including medical doctors.
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My former OB was a prolife NFP only doctor. He’s on the board of directors for a crisis pregnancy center. His office patients were Catholic ladies like me.

But often his patients were the women who went to the crisis pregnancy center. Part of the assistance received at the center was helping with the application for Medicaid, WIC and other social safety nets.
 
Thanks 🙂 I think Satan is thrilled that Catholics fight with each other over politics. I am also sorry if I was snarky.
 
TheLittleLady said:
As that sort of hiring practices are illegal, I’m sure that the centers you speak of follow EEOC guidelines in hiring
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LOL - they are staffed with Republicans because Democrats don’t want to work there, silly, not because they are being excluded! Point is, Dems don’t want to help.
 
Victoria33 said:
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LeafByNiggle:
You didn’t cite a source for your quote.

Even still, your quote only says something about what a Catholic may do and nothing about what a Catholic must do.
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A Brief Catechism for Catholic Voters | EWTN

There, there is a source.
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EWTN has no official connection with the Catholic Church. The opinions expressed there are the opinions of those speaking. Official Catholic teaching is found in the Catechism itself and other official Church documents.
Might, Must, May, frame it your way.
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Those words have very difference meaning. They are not interchangeable.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
EWTN has no official connection with the Catholic Church. The opinions expressed there are the opinions of those speaking. Official Catholic teaching is found in the Catechism itself and other official Church documents.
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Fine, reject teaching from EWTN, they likewise, use sources from the Cathechism. All of this is pretty common knowledge of Catholics, as if someone actually needs to do other members’ footwork for them.

I will go with EWTN, it really is commonsense, that one is not for the slaughter of other human beings.
LeafByNiggle said:
Those words have very difference meaning. They are not interchangeable.
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Very good. You were the one that first used them.
 
Victoria33 said:
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LeafByNiggle:
EWTN has no official connection with the Catholic Church. The opinions expressed there are the opinions of those speaking. Official Catholic teaching is found in the Catechism itself and other official Church documents.
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Fine, reject teaching from EWTN, they likewise, use sources from the Cathechism. All of this is pretty common knowledge of Catholics, as if someone actually needs to do other members’ footwork for them.
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I do reject EWTN as an authoritative source of Catholic teaching. But if you like their politics, go for it. It is not my cup of tea. They have some good programs on, like The Apostle of Common Sense (produced right here in my city) and few others. But they also show Prager and Voris.
 
JMMJ said:
That is what they may report. Of course it isn’t accurate. By they, I mean those seeking the abortion. Nobody wants to admit they slipped up and forgot once or didn’t bother.
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Half just admitted to not using it.
 
Reading the article, there are a couple of places Fr. Toracco does not completely reflect the Church teaching, but that is a little nuanced. Clearly, one is better off sticking with the USCCB. Also, the article is dated, as it reflects what St. John Paul said about the death penalty, but missed what Pope Francis said, so it might be older. However, if you have not read the USCCB guide in a while, it has been changed a little, specifically, much more direct about abortion being the greatest issue.

While I accept the onus of making abortion pre-eminent, part of me can’t help but worry if perhaps having an immoral president might not be worse. As Jesus taught, “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” The culture of death is a horror only topped by the culture of Hell. That is why I voted third party last time.
 
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pnewton said:
part of me can’t help but worry if perhaps having an immoral president might not be worse
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What presidents in the past never did anything immoral?

What present immorality is Trump engaged in?
 
«Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: “You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish” (Didaché, 2:2). “God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes” (Vatican Council II, Gaudium et Spes , 51).
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http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c..._cfaith_doc_20090711_aborto-procurato_en.html

Abortion is probably one of the most discussed issues on this whole website.

So, it just seems out of the ordinary to me, if one is asked to provide actual Vatican documentation on it but I have seen the documents.

They easily lump into the commandment “Thou Shalt Not Kill”. Catechism of the Catholic Church:
ARTICLE 5
THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT

** You shall not kill.54**

** You have heard that it was said to the men of old, “You shall not kill: and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.” But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment.55**

…

Abortion

[2270](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2270.htm’)😉 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

**[2272](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2272.htm’) Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
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http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

Vatican Documentation, end of. I suppose now, we’ll hear it doesn’t mean what it says. All Catholics should have some notion of the above as it is the Magisterium.
 
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Still, to even ask one’s party affiliation when hiring is against the law in the US (perhaps an exclusion if one were applying to work AT the RNC or DNC HQ) When I have volunteered with crisis pregnancy groups, we don’t sit around talking politics.
 
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