Food Price Riots Popping Up Around The World

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It’s not about running out of oil.
Doug, that’s what people don’t understand about the economic cascade effect. A person doesn’t need to lose all her or his body fluid to be in a crisis state – a decline of 15% will put one in terminal decline.

In addition to needing non-existent petroleum to pave the roads, what all about all the world’s asphalt roofing that needs to be renewed every 20-30 years?

Petrus
 
Doug, that’s what people don’t understand about the economic cascade effect. A person doesn’t need to lose all her or his body fluid to be in a crisis state – a decline of 15% will put one in terminal decline.

In addition to needing non-existent petroleum to pave the roads, what all about all the world’s asphalt roofing that needs to be renewed every 20-30 years?

Petrus
Enterprisers such as Al are conditioned to believe in eternal economic growth (and possess an intense odium for the government). It is not within their own psychology to question that dogma. You astutely point out the problem of the Panglossians and Pollyannas.
 
Vern, Al, the US only use oil to produce about 3% of the electricity generation in the US. The only way more electircal power plants come into play for transportation is when cars are running on plug-ins.

Petrus, Deepwater production takes on the order of 10 years to bring to market. The problem here in this debate is Al times three. It doesn’t matter what hard numbers I bring out they will field them with “will I just believe!!!” Hallalujah. Take Al in the other thread, it became all too evident that he uncharitably ignore any link I gave but expected me to open his.
Yes, yes, yes.

Coal burning accounts for 50% … we know that.

But the enviros have given the coal burners a lot of trouble.

In Texas, proposed coal burners have been cancelled.

Not all coal is the same … there is hard coal and soft coal … and all grades … and each type burns differently … yet the enviros want the most expensive and most difficult anti-pollution equipment regardless of the chemistry and physics.

AND, one of our former presidents placed HUGE U.S. coal deposits off limits … some suspect that it might have something to do with contributions to a certain presidential library … from Indonesia … which has a competing coal deposit … check out the Riady family … check the spelling.

Coal can also be used to make chemicals … not just electricity … methanol … Fischer-Tropsch Process … check out www.energyvictory.net
 
Enterprisers such as Al are conditioned to believe in eternal economic growth (and possess an intense odium for the government). It is not within their own psychology to question that dogma. You astutely point out the problem of the Panglossians and Pollyannas.
Free market economics works everywhere it has been tried.

Check out www.markskousen.com

He’s got a great new book.

“Econopower”

And he gave a great talk on www.booktv.org

Here’s the actual link to his talk:

booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9272&SectionName=&PlayMedia=No

The name of the game is transparency.

Gummint has a legitimate function or two … check out the U.S. Constitution. But gummint depends on “one size fits all”.

Check out Skousen’s talk.
 
Vern, Al, the US only use oil to produce about 3% of the electricity generation in the US. The only way more electircal power plants come into play for transportation is when cars are running on plug-ins.
We need electricity to replace power now supplied by oil in many applications. How will we get it?
Petrus, Deepwater production takes on the order of 10 years to bring to market.
However long it takes, if we wait until tomorrow to start, it will take a day longer.
The problem here in this debate is Al times three. It doesn’t matter what hard numbers I bring out they will field them with “will I just believe!!!” Hallalujah. Take Al in the other thread, it became all too evident that he uncharitably ignore any link I gave but expected me to open his.
Are you here to insult people and cast slurs, or debate?
 
What do you mean by Dems? I would have bet that Al Gore would have bounteously supported alternative energy research and not focus on giving tax cuts for the wealthy.

I do expect a die-off in places such as Africa. I do not know what we can do to prevent such a malevolent catastrophe. However, my only hope is that alterative energy (I do believe humanity has the capacity to solve it but the question is whether there will be enough time) might save the survivors and the catastrophe will lead them to abandon religion as they see the incompatibility of such suffering with a benevolent God.
Al Gore??? The “look for the union label” guy? Phony as a three dollar bill. Gets richer by the minute selling bogus carbon credits by turning So. Am. farmland into useless monocultures, or claiming to do it, anyway. Burns hydrocarbons like a drunken sailor drinks rum. Bogus all the way. I think maybe it was Chesterton who said that when one loses his faith in God, it’s not that he will believe in nothing, but that he’ll believe in anything. Al Gore, George Soros: Golden calves all the way.
 
We need electricity to replace power now supplied by oil in many applications. How will we get it?

However long it takes, if we wait until tomorrow to start, it will take a day longer.

Are you here to insult people and cast slurs, or debate?
I’m not here to debate astrology. If your going to ignore any math or data I put here by arguing "well in 20 years who knows you can’t predict that…someone a “they” will fix the situation. Rhetoric like “However long it takes, if we wait until tomorrow to start, it will take a day longer.” means what? That there is a fix? There maynot be a fix. And just who do you expect to get the ball rolling on the coming energy crises today? Is the free market didn’t see the peaking of oil in the US coming.

I’m convienced you don’t come close to uderstanding the stiutation. For example (and this is a point I usually ingore or pass over because the focuse is short term and not long term), you argue that we need more refineries because there hasn’t been one built in 30 years. So? The fact is major refineries have expanded their opertions so that this expansion is the equivolent of adding 14 new refineries in that 30 time period. Also, at present, because there is an over supply of gasoline the crack spread to the refiners aren’t making money so they aren’t producing as much gasoline.

My favorite cornucopian is Ed Wallace, smart guy, but his focuse is on what’s going on in the fuels market at present. From that POV he’s very good. There Is No Gas Shortage The problem I have with Ed’s focuse on the now is that it causes people (the free market?) to discount the future. Again, the IEA is pedictiong an oil crunch after 2010. With the most optimitic decline rate of CERA’s 4.5% the global oil industry must replace a new Iran (4 million bbl/day) every year to keep production flat. To get to the projected 112 mil i 9 years, the industry must discover and bring to market 9 new Saudi Arabias.

Where do we get the electricity from to replace oil supplies for transprotaion? You tell me…If the US burns coal at a rate of 100 railcars every 5 minutes and that rate of consumption is growing when will rail transport need new rail lines? Given that the use of coal will increase exponetially (BussinesDay magazine) even more than it’s modest rate of growth is today how long before coal production stops growing? I want you to give me rational answers to those questions, not “if we wait until tomorrow to start, it will take a day longer” since that really doesn’t convience me of anything.

QUESTION: did you listen to the Dr Hirsch interview?
 
Doug, that’s what people don’t understand about the economic cascade effect. A person doesn’t need to lose all her or his body fluid to be in a crisis state – a decline of 15% will put one in terminal decline.

In addition to needing non-existent petroleum to pave the roads, what all about all the world’s asphalt roofing that needs to be renewed every 20-30 years?

Petrus
Yea but notice how Vern responded to my graph about how Alaska’s North Slope only had a modest response to US oil production. He ignored it in his next reply with “if we wait until tomorrow to start…” It really does no good for me to put up the numbers or graphs because they (guys like him and AL) will simply ignore them and then attempt a redirect their argument into a different polyannish direction. Al claims to have been an engineer in a former life but have you seen him crunch one set of numbers on how future energy demands will be supplied? Demand Vern and Al to pull the hard math numbers to support their position about future energy.

The two biggest problems for the 21st century is water and energy sources. Water is renewable (except for fossil water supplies) fossil fuels are not.
 
I’m not here to debate astrology.
My, aren’t we nasty?
If your going to ignore any math or data I put here by arguing "well in 20 years who knows you can’t predict that…someone a “they” will fix the situation. Rhetoric like “However long it takes, if we wait until tomorrow to start, it will take a day longer.” means what? That there is a fix? There maynot be a fix. And just who do you expect to get the ball rolling on the coming energy crises today?
That would be us, the people of the United States – as we always have
Is the free market didn’t see the peaking of oil in the US coming.
Acutally, it was interference in the free market that got us where we are – restrictions on drilling, contructing refineries, and constructing nuclear plants.
I’m convienced you don’t come close to uderstanding the stiutation. For example (and this is a point I usually ingore or pass over because the focuse is short term and not long term), you argue that we need more refineries because there hasn’t been one built in 30 years.
No, I argue that if we had the oil we need, we wouldn’t have the capacity to refine it.

And the reason for that is that we haven’t been able to build a refinery in 30 years. We have product-improved and expanded the ones we have, but that game is played out.
So? The fact is major refineries have expanded their opertions so that this expansion is the equivolent of adding 14 new refineries in that 30 time period. Also, at present, because there is an over supply of gasoline the crack spread to the refiners aren’t making money so they aren’t producing as much gasoline.
Take a look at all petroleum products – they are all skyrocketing in price. We simply don’t have the capacity to keep up with demand.
My favorite cornucopian is Ed Wallace, smart guy, but his focuse is on what’s going on in the fuels market at present. From that POV he’s very good. There Is No Gas Shortage The problem I have with Ed’s focuse on the now is that it causes people (the free market?) to discount the future. Again, the IEA is pedictiong an oil crunch after 2010. With the most optimitic decline rate of CERA’s 4.5% the global oil industry must replace a new Iran (4 million bbl/day) every year to keep production flat. To get to the projected 112 mil i 9 years, the industry must discover and bring to market 9 new Saudi Arabias.
Which is why we should have been building nuclear plants right along, and switching to electric power in every possible area.
Where do we get the electricity from to replace oil supplies for transprotaion? You tell me…If the US burns coal at a rate of 100 railcars every 5 minutes and that rate of consumption is growing when will rail transport need new rail lines? Given that the use of coal will increase
That’s why it was such a disasterous mistake to embargo new nuclear construction for the last 30 years – and why continued obstruction of new nuclear plants is so harmful.
exponetially (BussinesDay magazine) even more than it’s modest rate of growth is today how long before coal production stops growing? I want you to give me rational answers to those questions, not “if we wait until tomorrow to start, it will take a day longer” since that really doesn’t convience me of anything.
And your tone doesn’t convince me of anything, either. Take a more gentlemanly approach and we may get somewhere.

We need a multi-prong approach: Open up new areas for exploration and drilling. Build new and vastly improved nuclear plants. Use electricity to replace oil power as new nuclear plants are available.
QUESTION: did you listen to the Dr Hirsch interview?
I am unable to download it.
 
Yea but notice how Vern responded to my graph about how Alaska’s North Slope only had a modest response to US oil production. He ignored it in his next reply with “if we wait until tomorrow to start…”
Anyone can win a debate if they are allowed to invent the other side’s position.😉

My point was there are many places that offer promise – I did not restrict it to the North Slope. North Slope data, by the way, is woefully out of date. Modern technology would tell us more accurately what is or is not there – but we can’t explore the North Slope.
It really does no good for me to put up the numbers or graphs because they (guys like him and AL) will simply ignore them and then attempt a redirect their argument into a different polyannish direction. Al claims to have been an engineer in a former life but have you seen him crunch one set of numbers on how future energy demands will be supplied? Demand Vern and Al to pull the hard math numbers to support their position about future energy.

The two biggest problems for the 21st century is water and energy sources. Water is renewable (except for fossil water supplies) fossil fuels are not.
Which is why we need to work to obtain new supplies – which are there – and to move to nuclear power as rapidly as possible.
 
From now on, Vern, since I can pull the numbers, for you to counter my argument you have to counter those numbers with your own. But here’s a realaudio stream with Hirsch media.globalpublicmedia.com/RAM/2005/11/Hirsch.20051117.ram or better yet take you pick of audio, video, or reports oildepletiondebate.blogspot.com/2008/02/peak-oil-debate.html

A couple examples
OPEC’s Growing Call on Itself
research.cibcwm.com/economic_public/download/occrept62.pdf “The call on OPEC has long been referred to as a measure of pressure on world supply, being the difference between world demand and non-cartel production. But increasingly, what bears watching is OPEC’s growing call on itself, which is simply the difference between what OPEC produces and what it consumes. Not only is the cartel, along with other key producers like Russia and Mexico, struggling to grow production, but at the same time their own internal consumption rates of oil are soaring. So much so that crude exports from the group as a whole, accounting for roughly 60% of current world oil production, are likely to fall by as much as 2.5 million barrels per day by the end of the decade—resulting in significantly higher oil prices…”

Understanding Exponential Growth in demand
“The Forgotten Fundamentals of the Energy Crises” npg.org/specialreports/bartlett_index.htm
guba.com/watch/3000053112
Or why your coal supply will not last as long as you’d like to believe, Vern

“Frustration” with guys like you and Al who ignore another’s points is correct term. Not “nasty”.
 
Anyone can win a debate if they are allowed to invent the other side’s position.😉

My point was there are many places that offer promise – I did not restrict it to the North Slope. North Slope data, by the way, is woefully out of date. Modern technology would tell us more accurately what is or is not there – but we can’t explore the North Slope.

Which is why we need to work to obtain new supplies – which are there – and to move to nuclear power as rapidly as possible.
See this is exactly what I’m talking about Vern. You say the supplies **are **there. What do you mean by that? That there is enough oil to be drilled to make the US oil independent again? If so prove it with both reserve numbers and potential flow rate numbers. There’s no doubt in my mind that ANWAR will be drilled (a test well was actaully drilled years ago by Cheveron in that area) but the geology is more complex than the North Slope (aka prudhoe bay) so on the surface even you argument that we can’t explore the North Slope is wrong. You say the technology is outdate. Saying so doesn’t make it so; care to explain indepth?
 
From now on, Vern, since I can pull the numbers, for you to counter my argument you have to counter those numbers with your own. But here’s a realaudio stream with Hirsch media.globalpublicmedia.com/RAM/2005/11/Hirsch.20051117.ram or better yet take you pick of audio, video, or reports oildepletiondebate.blogspot.com/2008/02/peak-oil-debate.html
Here ya go:
“All oil producers—OPEC and non-OPEC alike—simply are not investing enough today to ensure sufficient capacity to meet oil needs in the next 10 years.”
Well I’ll be dipped in snuff – that’s what I’ve been saying!!😉
A couple examples
OPEC’s Growing Call on Itself
research.cibcwm.com/economic_public/download/occrept62.pdf “The call on OPEC has long been referred to as a measure of pressure on world supply, being the difference between world demand and non-cartel production. But increasingly, what bears watching is OPEC’s growing call on itself, which is simply the difference between what OPEC produces and what it consumes. Not only is the cartel, along with other key producers like Russia and Mexico, struggling to grow production, but at the same time their own internal consumption rates of oil are soaring. So much so that crude exports from the group as a whole, accounting for roughly 60% of current world oil production, are likely to fall by as much as 2.5 million barrels per day by the end of the decade—resulting in significantly higher oil prices…”

Understanding Exponential Growth in demand
“The Forgotten Fundamentals of the Energy Crises” npg.org/specialreports/bartlett_index.htm
guba.com/watch/3000053112
Or why your coal supply will not last as long as you’d like to believe, Vern
So tell me, how long do I believe “my” coal supply will last? Give me a quote, not just a nasty insinuation.
“Frustration” with guys like you and Al who ignore another’s points is correct term. Not “nasty”.
Another excuse.
 
See this is exactly what I’m talking about Vern. You say the supplies **are **there. What do you mean by that? That there is enough oil to be drilled to make the US oil independent again?
We don’t know until we look – and we are blocked from even looking right now in the ANWAR.

There has, however been a recent report of a huge find in the Dakotas – how large, and how accurate the reports are, we don’t yet know.
If so prove it with both reserve numbers and potential flow rate numbers.
Ah, the old, “You have to prove it before you can look for proof” ploy.😛
There’s no doubt in my mind that ANWAR will be drilled (a test well was actaully drilled years ago by Cheveron in that area) but the geology is more complex than the North Slope (aka prudhoe bay) so on the surface even you argument that we can’t explore the North Slope is wrong. You say the technology is outdate. Saying so doesn’t make it so; care to explain indepth?
The Congress has recently rejected efforts to explore the ANWAR.

warriorsfortruth.com/alaska-oil-anwar.html
jewishworldreview.com/cols/jonah072401.asp
ga4.org/campaign/boycott

What we see is heavy lobbying to prevent exploration and drilling here. Do you have any definitive cite that says we are now energetically exploring the ANWAR?

Do you have any definitive cite that says we are now energetically exploring and drilling off the coasts – east, west and Florida – where we were formerly not allowed to drill?

Do you have any definitive cite that says we are now licensing new nuclear plants for construction?

Do you have any definitive cite that says we are now converting to electric power those things that can be converted, as these new plants come on line?
 
Here ya go:

Well I’ll be dipped in snuff – that’s what I’ve been saying!!😉

So tell me, how long do I believe “my” coal supply will last? Give me a quote, not just a nasty insinuation.

Another excuse.
You’re full of excusses. I already told you that Ed only looks at current fuel numbers. He’s not a geologist or petroleum engineer or an oil analyst. OPEC nations inflated their reserves in the 1980’s. That’s a fact. But were they justified in doing so? OPEC national reserves are considerd national secrets. That’s also a fact. Those stated reserves have been challenged using the original Society of Petroleum Engineers database on Saudi Arabia. The only place in the Middle East that has the real potential to expand its production, it’s believe, is Iraq. Saudi Arabia has spent 80 billion to get it’s production up from 9 million/day to 12 million. So yours and Ed’s argument that the investments are being made is only half right. What does the former head of Saudi ARAMCO’s production and exploration have to say about the future of global oil flow? Listern for yourself:
Dr Sadad Al-Husseini
Brown University PhD, former head of Saudi Armco’s production & exploration
November 1, 2007 interview
Page down to: Listen to the interview with Sadad al-Huseini.
davidstrahan.com/blog/?p=67
energybulletin.net/36510.html
In a revealing interview with journalist David Strahan at this year’s Oil & Money Conference, former head of Saudi Arabian exploration & production Sadad Al-Husseini told the world that he now believes that the current level of world oil production will likely never be exceeded. Al-Husseini’s view coincides with that of T. Boone Pickens, who stated at ASPO-USA’s Houston conference that the world oil production peaked in 2006. The 85 million barrels per day of liquids available to the markets now is all we’re ever going to get if these oil industry veterans are correct. With demand rising and supply flat, prices must rise. Accordingly, Al-Husseini believes that oil prices will rise by $12 per barrel per year from here on out, assuming a “base” price level of about $70 in 2007. The nominal price is now just above $92/barrel, so the difference must be due to the usual suspects cited by the mainstream media, including speculators, the weak dollar, rising Asian demand, resource nationalism, geopolitics in the Middle East, disruptions in Nigeria, and Iraq.

Why should I give you a coal quote? See that’s the point I’m making. You want me to spend my time so that you can disregard the effort. I want you to reserach what the rate of coal consumption is, what’s extractable, and then with hard numbers report back to us that all is well for hundreds of years for power generation, if that’s what you believe. You can do the same with uranium too and debuke Goodstein’s point that ten thousand plants would use up the uranium supplies in 20 years time) Why should I spend my time reporting to you that global oil production is ~86 million per day (and has been since 2005), that CERA’s estimates of decline rates for those 86 million of ~4.5% per year is an annual loss in production of 4 million barrels per day (the same as Iran’s production, which BTW peaked 1979), and that to grow to CERA’s expected est of 112 million in 9 years requires the addition of 9 news Saudi Arabias? Why should I bother doing that for you to say, “Which is why we need to work to obtain new supplies – which are there”

For example, I read in a report that in 1991 th USGS estimated there was 500 years of US coal supply at what was then the “current rate of consumption.” But rates of consumption do not remain constant. From 1971 to 1991 the rate of consumption for US coal grew at an annualized rate of 2.86%. You wanted a quote, here’s the quote:
“An example of what exponential growth means in resources can be seen with US coal reserves. Coal is the US’s most abundant fossil fuel. In 1991 the US Department of Energy reported that at current rate of use US coal reserves could last almost 500 years. But the caveat here is current rate of use. Between 1971 and 1991 the use of coal grew 2.86%. With this rate of growth US coal could last about 94 years if we could use it all, but more likely 72 years of coal would be recoverable.”
 
We don’t know until we look – and we are blocked from even looking right now in the ANWAR.

There has, however been a recent report of a huge find in the Dakotas – how large, and how accurate the reports are, we don’t yet know.

Ah, the old, “You have to prove it before you can look for proof” ploy.😛

The Congress has recently rejected efforts to explore the ANWAR.

warriorsfortruth.com/alaska-oil-anwar.html
jewishworldreview.com/cols/jonah072401.asp
ga4.org/campaign/boycott

What we see is heavy lobbying to prevent exploration and drilling here. Do you have any definitive cite that says we are now energetically exploring the ANWAR?

Do you have any definitive cite that says we are now energetically exploring and drilling off the coasts – east, west and Florida – where we were formerly not allowed to drill?

Do you have any definitive cite that says we are now licensing new nuclear plants for construction?

Do you have any definitive cite that says we are now converting to electric power those things that can be converted, as these new plants come on line?
Vern, I lived through gas lines in the 70s. I believe, when gas lines return congress will be pressured to open up ANWAR, and the East/West coasts. Or is that an unreasonable argument?
 
You’re full of excusses.
Funny, I was about to say that to you (but with fewer esses.)😛
I already told you that Ed only looks at current fuel numbers. He’s not a geologist or petroleum engineer or an oil analyst. OPEC nations inflated their reserves in the 1980’s.
And I already told you that we cannot determine potential from current numbers.
Why should I give you a coal quote? See that’s the point I’m making.
What’s a “coal quote” and when did I ask you for one?
You want me to spend my time so that you can disregard the effort.
That seems inconsistent with your comment:
I already told you that Ed only looks at current fuel numbers. He’s not a geologist or petroleum engineer or an oil analyst. OPEC nations inflated their reserves in the 1980’s.
I want you to reserach what the rate of coal consumption is, what’s extractable, and then with hard numbers report back to us that all is well for hundreds of years for power generation, if that’s what you believe.
So you can “refute” it with a report that “only looks at current fuel numbers?”

My position is we don’t know our reserves – and until we look, we cannot know.
“An example of what exponential growth means in resources can be seen with US coal reserves. Coal is the US’s most abundant fossil fuel. In 1991 the US Department of Energy reported that at current rate of use US coal reserves could last almost 500 years. But the caveat here is current rate of use. Between 1971 and 1991 the use of coal grew 2.86%. With this rate of growth US coal could last about 94 years if we could use it all, but more likely 72 years of coal would be recoverable.”
What’s your point? Seventy-two years would give us more time to develop alternatives --** if** we’d stop moaning and groaning and get off our butts and do it.
 
Then do it. Who’s going to provide the national leadership that focuses the nation on actually solving the energy problem before there is an energy crunch? Do you see any national leadership?

Rich Smalley believed: for world wide peace and prosperty, if he could take his pro-growth republican right hand and flip the switch that’d turn on a gigawatt of power, he’d have to flip that switch every day for 27 years to get the minimum 10 terrawatts by 2050 from this energy source that we don’t know yet where it’s going to come from.

72-(2008-1991)= 55 years from today…but never mind

a 72 year coal supply at 2.86% growth rate only holds if growth rates stay that low. Add plug-ins and you degress the time by increasing the rate of consumption. But that 72 year estimate is only a mathamatical exercise because it assume coal can be extracted with rates never going flat or negative until ALL the reserves have been extracted. In reality you’ll hit a peak in coal prodcution sooner than those 72 year span of time while reserve extraction tales off longer into the future…just like what’s happening with oil in the US since 1970 gailtheactuary.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/us-production.jpeg

Oil Quiz - Test Your Knowledge
 
Then do it. Who’s going to provide the national leadership that focuses the nation on actually solving the energy problem before there is an energy crunch? Do you see any national leadership?
How about us?

Let me tell you the story of the Soviet leaders on a train. The train stopped and the conductor came back and said, “I’m sorry, but there’s no more track.”

Lenin made a 12 hour speech about the lack of track and what is to be done.

Stalin shot the conductor.

Breznev had the passengers get out, tear up the track behind the train and lay it in front.

Krushev had the passengers sit back down and sway from side to side, saying, “Clickety-clack! Clickety-clack!”

Gorbachv fell down and cried, “There’s no more track! There’s no more track!”

Surely we can do better.
 
Then do it. Who’s going to provide the national leadership that focuses the nation on actually solving the energy problem before there is an energy crunch? Do you see any national leadership?

Rich Smalley believed: for world wide peace and prosperty, if he could take his pro-growth republican right hand and flip the switch that’d turn on a gigawatt of power, he’d have to flip that switch every day for 27 years to get the minimum 10 terrawatts by 2050 from this energy source that we don’t know yet where it’s going to come from.
What do you recommend as energy policy?
Alternative energy should be the highest priority now. I wish the next President would raise taxes and CUT entitlement programs to found solar R&D, pay off the debt to China (thank you Republicans and Bush for this) and form a new energy infrastructure. Are you happy Norquist?.. the beast is starving
Strange things that a liberal would say.
 
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