For CAF members in response to the post:

[Marilena]

“The End of False Religion is Near!” that has been an excellent thread. Jeff has made a podcast for us to download in regards to the Catholic response to the tract.

Since I cannot download it, I want to make my response here. This post is for CAF responses to the tract. As you know we have had some witnesses come in here seeing what the response is. I’d like to ask you what is your response to the tract? How do you as a Catholic feel about it? What do you feel about the jw responses to our posts in the thread? Do you feel we have been treated fairly as Catholic’s? Why am I asking this? There is a picture in the tract that looks like a Catholic priest. So how do you as a Catholic feel about the picture, or what is your thoughts about the tract?

Do you feel like the picture in it was indirectly aimed at Catholic’s? How have you dealt with the tract when you have had a return visit from a jw? have you had any witnesses stop by your door since they dropped off the tract? How have you talked to them about it?

Have you had a chance to speak to them about the tract? do you plan on speaking to them about it? I do. I downloaded Jeff’s tract, The End of False Prophecy is Here! and Iam going to do a preparation for the inevitable return visit from the lady who dropped it off. Iam going to talk to her about every issue they raise in the tract.

Why? My aim is to help her see the truth. I will most charitably speak to her, and let her have her say about it, and then I will talk to her about it from a Catholic standpoint. I see this is a great opportunity from God to answer her questions. I look forward to it.

I’ve heard alot of members tell me that the tract raises issues that need answering from a Catholic standpoint. So if you can download Jeff’s podcast about the response, then that is great!

I however cannot download it. i have no pod, and my pc wont let me download it. Guess i need to know from Jeff if the podcast can be listened to on the pc?

I wanted to invite Damascus, mommy of2, Kellie, Daniel Marsh and Catholic Dude as well as all the others who have responded in the post and those who have not but have received the tract to discuss your thoughts on it here.

I think this is invaluable, and hope the mods let this post be answered by our CAF members. Iam also really curious as to what the Protestant view is on this tract, and how have you as a Protestant responded to it at your door? Or even here? What are your views on this tract? Would you mind sharing it with us?

Thanks to all who participate in this post. God bless you!

Marilena

 

[Frank_Fenn]

I only did a glance through the post. Since we recieved the tract, there has been alot of discussion in our home about it.

My response is only that I think we need to show the Jehovah’s Witnesses the truth, and that their belief is not the truth, and to do that, we need to respond with charity, and knowledge about their belief system.

I did not find the tract to be anything other than what they have stated before in the past.

It is as you have said before, there is nothing new in it. It is only to me, the headline of it that gains attention, and I think this is what they had intended when they made the tract.

To gain attention to it. Since we live in times of uncertainty it is most likely according to them, a really good time to put out a tract at this time of uncertainty.

It was designed to make us think. The thing is, this is not a new issue. How many times has the society put out something that grabs your attention? Alot.

what has this tract done for me? absolutely nothing. It is for me just another one of their publications. nothing new.

Will I speak to a Jehovah’s Witness about it? sure, why not? Although Iam still new to the faith, that does not limit my ability to speak with them in regards to the tract from a Catholic standpoint.

I especially would like to discuss with them the real issue of false religion. I’d like to be able to ask them how they can possibly think that the Catholic faith is part of the “world empire of false religion”

I have read Jeff’s tract, “The End of False Prophecy is Here!” it is excellent, and I plan on discussing noth tracts with the witnesses next time they come to our doorstep,

As a husband and wife team, we have both studied these tracts, and are well prepared for the visits from the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I want to extend a personal thank you to Jeff for that most excellent tract! Also, I have an Ipod and I can download your podcast, and am really looking forward to that podcast.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I think the pictures are a direct attack on Catholic Church,

When looking at tracts like this the first thing that comes to my mind is the source — that being false prophets. The International Bible Students did not exist before the 1800s or early 1900s, the Jehovah’s Witnesses came into existence around what 1950? The eariliest person they can point to that denied the deity of Christ is Arius and he was about 300 years after the apostles. And, they can not find any arians between the apostles and Arius. Even Pliny’s correspondance recognises that the early Christians believed that Jesus was divine ( worshipped like a god ). Their claim that the New Testament does not teach the deity of Christ is based on their mistranslation which turns out to be copied concept by concept from a spiritualist ( Grebber ) “translation” of the new testament by demons. Thus their misinterpretations of scripture fulfill the scritpure about those who twist the scriptures to their own deminse.

1917 As the fleshly-minded apostates from Christianity, siding with the radicals and revolutionaries, will rejoice at the inheritance of desolation that will be Christendom’s after 1918, so will God do to the successful revolutionary movement; it shall be utterly desolated, “even all of it.” Not one vestige of it shall survive the ravages of world-wide all embracing anarchy, in the fall of 1920. (Rev. II: 7-13) (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 542, [The 1926 ed. reads: “in the end of the time of trouble.”])

1917 This vision of the prophet Ezekiel depicts the established theocratic Kingdom of God on earth, civil and religious, spiritual and earthly. . . . The Temple . . . is a type and symbol of “better things to come,” after the wars, revolutions and anarchy of the period from 1914 to 1925 have passed. (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 569 [The 1926 ed. reads: “of the time of trouble have passed.”])

1918 “Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection.” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89)
…

bibletopics.com/biblestudy/88a.htm
bibletopics.com/biblestudy/88b.htm
bibletopics.com/biblestudy/88c.htm
bibletopics.com/biblestudy/88d.htm
bibletopics.com/biblestudy/88e.htm

When one has a track record like this I don’t see them as worth my time to listen to. Also, since they can not even trace themselves back to the apostles through Bishops, they have no authority at all.

 

[Damascus]

Good Morning Marilena!

I am having some difficulty with the podcast but I am sure its something minor I can figure out. I’ll keep trying before I respond. I left a note under the door at the closest hall by me since they dont have a number like most halls do, and asked if someone could come over to tell me more about this tract since some things remain unclear to me. That was 4 days ago. But they are having a meeting tonight so I am hoping I can run into one of them in the parking lot to ask. I would like to let whoever may come by use my computer and view these threads if they like. And hear the podcast if I get that worked out. I am also hoping they might have some more periodicals for me.
As far as a depictions of Priests are concerned, they have put out many over the years that have depicted a Priest. I really think it matters not what denomination the Priest illustrated is, because in each case the illustration is far from flattering and downright scary looking.I would be offended no matter what the demomination was. It most definately bothers me to see illustrations like that, yet I realize its just part of the not so subtle way they do things. Its not charitable and its offensive. I dont think they even notice it or see it that way, or if they do they feel justifyed in doing it. Hurting people or their feelings is not factored into things.
I am glad you intend to go to such means to help the JW’s you encounter with the heart of a true Christian and in a loving manner.
Are there specific things you would like us to discuss in the tract? Or just our feelings about areas we were struck by? Or the podcast? I’m kinda confused how to respond.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

This tract, I suspect, represents for the new millenium,
the beginning of a hysteria-based recruitment campaign for new members, similar to the hysteria based recruitment campaign the Society launched in 1966 when it began strongly intimating that Armageddon was due by 1975.

JWs come around regularly, but this is the first time I can remember in a long, long time where they have distributed an alarmist piece of literature in a unified, worldwide effort. I believe they are trying to keep the current members “in line” and from questioning the failure of their “1914 Generation” doctrine/prophecy, as well as trying to recruit new people into the Organization based on fear.

Though the tract says “False Religion” is nearing it’s demise,
it is clear that the tract is aimed primarily at Catholic and Protestant Christianity. The priest in his collar, and on the other page, the drawing of a protestant style church and behind it a Catholic Cathedral. JWs believe that “Christendom” is the wickedest part of “Babylon the Great, the worldwide empire of false religion”

They begin their attack on false religion starting with the universal belief among mankind that human beings have a spiritual soul.
They start with their killer scripture proof, namely, that the dead know nothing, the soul that sinneth it itself shall die, and that when a man dies “his thoughts perish” from Ecclesiastes. Never mind, of course, that the Jews who wrote Ecclesiastes believed in the soul and still do, the Society misinterprets this passage so as to get people to believe that their religion is wrong from the very “get-go.” When Ecclesiastes says that our thoughts perish when we die, it doesn’t mean to affirm that we do not have a rational soul that survives our death. “Thoughts” in Ecclesiates refers to our plans and goals ON EARTH, or as Ecclesiastes puts it, “under the Sun.” When we die, everything we were planning to do, our thoughts, our intentions, come to an end, they perish.
That is what that scripture means, it does NOT mean that we have no soul. It would be good to point that out to any Witnesses who pay you a return visit based upon this Pamphlet.
God bless,
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3 and an ex JW myself )

 

[Marilena]

your right of course. we have discussed it alot lately. the thing that saddens me is some of the responses from the jw’s in the post where i provided links for them to see, and one of them stated that she could not look at those links because it was from an “ex” as she put it. she mentioned she heard of silent lambs on the tv.

they come to our doors and drop the tract off, and leave. but the ones that come in here are only checking to see what the public response to the tract is. i was supposing that all the ones who have responded to the post there were all from the same kingdom hall.

i wished they had really wanted to discuss doctrine. the Catholic Church has not changed its doctrine in 2000 years, nor will it.truth does not change.

Iam eagerly awaiting the opportunity for us to discuss this with a witness. they don’t want to debate doctrine, they don’t want us asking them about their doctrines. why is that? what are they afraid to discuss with us?

perhaps they shy away from discussing the doctrines of the society because they might not know how to respond to the facts that they have flip flopped on their doctrines?

i have stated many times before that truth does not change. it does not change, and it never will. so a belief that has flip flopped on doctrines and changed alot over the last 100 some odd years claims that iwe are part of the world empire of false religion, howis that so if our doctrines do not change? we have the truth, and it has been handed directly to us from Christ Himself!

so how can they consider us part of the world empire of false religion? simply does not make sense!

i wish the socety would change its policy on their members and independent thinking, let their members question them and ask them about the flip flops, and not expect blind obedience to the socety. i see it as mental manipulation.

they do not know for certain that if all people on earth were like them that there’d be no wars and crime. that is not a statement they can make accurately.

so, be a jw and all else will be added to you correct? not correct.if they really had “love” amongst themselves, then why is is that so many leave and never come back?

why is it that the society tells its members that when one is shunned, that it is a bad association if one were to associate with the shunned one?

I think they punish people, and they do this by saying do it our way or else! ( that or else means shunning, losing contact with loved ones, bveing branded as an “apostate” losing your everlasting life because you dared to find out the truth about the society and intimidation of family or friends of the shunned one if they have even minimal contact with the one shunned )

Sigh… so many issues.

 

[Marilena]

Damascus,

What i intend to discuss with them about the tract is as Frank states, real false religion. Theirs. i intend to point out that point that God cannot teach error or speak error. they claim boldly that they speak for God and that they are God’s “visible” organization on earth. Since they have made so many errors, how can they claim they speak for God?

As for false religion, well, theirs has no basis in truth. their belief is man made. ours is not. Ours comes directly from Christ and cannot be false.

i want to ask them how they can possibly think we are part of babylon the great? how is that possible since our faith came directly from Christ Himself? not possible.

 

[Marilena]

This tract, I suspect, represents for the new millenium,
the beginning of a hysteria-based recruitment campaign for new members, similar to the hysteria based recruitment campaign the Society launched in 1966 when it began strongly intimating that Armageddon was due by 1975.

JWs come around regularly, but this is the first time I can remember in a long, long time where they have distributed an alarmist piece of literature in a unified, worldwide effort. I believe they are trying to keep the current members “in line” and from questioning the failure of their “1914 Generation” doctrine/prophecy, as well as trying to recruit new people into the Organization based on fear.

Though the tract says “False Religion” is nearing it’s demise,
it is clear that the tract is aimed primarily at Catholic and Protestant Christianity. The priest in his collar, and on the other page, the drawing of a protestant style church and behind it a Catholic Cathedral. JWs believe that “Christendom” is the wickedest part of “Babylon the Great, the worldwide empire of false religion”

They begin their attack on false religion starting with the universal belief among mankind that human beings have a spiritual soul.
They start with their killer scripture proof, namely, that the dead know nothing, the soul that sinneth it itself shall die, and that when a man dies “his thoughts perish” from Ecclesiastes. Never mind, of course, that the Jews who wrote Ecclesiastes believed in the soul and still do, the Society misinterprets this passage so as to get people to believe that their religion is wrong from the very “get-go.” When Ecclesiastes says that our thoughts perish when we die, it doesn’t mean to affirm that we do not have a rational soul that survives our death. “Thoughts” in Ecclesiates refers to our plans and goals ON EARTH, or as Ecclesiastes puts it, “under the Sun.” When we die, everything we were planning to do, our thoughts, our intentions, come to an end, they perish.
That is what that scripture means, it does NOT mean that we have no soul. It would be good to point that out to any Witnesses who pay you a return visit based upon this Pamphlet.
God bless,
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3 and an ex JW myself )

 

[Damascus]

QUOTE=Marilena;1660278]Damascus,

What i intend to discuss with them about the tract is as Frank states, real false religion. Theirs. i intend to point out that point that God cannot teach error or speak error. they claim boldly that they speak for God and that they are God’s “visible” organization on earth. Since they have made so many errors, how can they claim they speak for God?

I agree, but I think this statement, as true as it is will shut the door on their interest to pursue any conversation. As you know, its hurtful when someone calls your religion false. Granted, the periodical opens the door for us to feel that we can refute it this way, but I think we should let them come to this conclusion and not stoop to their way of labling things. Its hard, and I have done it many times myself, but if we wish to see them engage us on any level we should refrain from telling them what their religion is or better said IS NOT, and let them decide.

As for false religion, well, theirs has no basis in truth. their belief is man made. ours is not. Ours comes directly from Christ and cannot be false.

i want to ask them how they can possibly think we are part of babylon the great? how is that possible since our faith came directly from Christ Himself? not possible.

Its not possible.

 

[Marilena]

I agree, but I think this statement, as true as it is will shut the door on their interest to pursue any conversation. As you know, its hurtful when someone calls your religion false. Granted, the periodical opens the door for us to feel that we can refute it this way, but I think we should let them come to this conclusion and not stoop to their way of labling things. Its hard, and I have done it many times myself, but if we wish to see them engage us on any level we should refrain from telling them what their religion is or better said IS NOT, and let them decide.

i agree. i will let them come to that conculsion themselves, that their belief is false. one has to help them see it, as you say, on their own. once they see it, then the door is open to real dialogue!

 

[jediliz]

I got the tract on sunday. I was Not home at the time - I was at my parish’s big Annual Fundraiser - our Church Bazaar. Anyway, I did read part of it - it was the part about “allowing immoral sex”.

Well, that part must be attacking the Anglicans or something because it mentioned gay clergy. And we know that the Catholic Church is trying to make sure that Gay Priests are NOT ordained.

I’ll go find the podcast and listen to it.

 

[Mommyof02green]

“The End of False Religion is Near!” that has been an excellent thread. Jeff has made a podcast for us to download in regards to the Catholic response to the tract. Since I cannot download it, I want to make my response here. This post is for CAF responses to the tract.

I am unable to download the podcast seeing I don’t have an ipod. However, I can post here

As you know we have had some witnesses come in here seeing what the response is. I’d like to ask you what is your response to the tract?

Personally I don’t have any direct response to the tract, other then I know that its has misunderstandings about a lot of things. Everything I have ever seen form JW has misunderstandings about a lot of things.

How do you as a Catholic feel about it?

As a Catholic-Christian, I’m sadden that the avg. JW is being mislead. The JW are sheep wondering without a TRUE Shepard. We are to help the lost sheep and bring them back. However, my personal opinion is that JW are more then just lost. They got themselves in a thicket of thorns and are scared to come out, because the thorns hurt.

What do you feel about the jw responses to our posts in the thread?

In my opinion they are lost. In my opinion they are scared. In my opinion they are searching for the truth, even if they don’t know it. In my opinion they need to be gently lead out of the thicket of thorns, and back to the True Shepard. (That’s just my opinion though)

Do you feel we have been treated fairly as Catholic’s? Why am I asking this? There is a picture in the tract that looks like a Catholic priest. So how do you as a Catholic feel about the picture, or what is your thoughts about the tract?

I just :nope: my head, and thought just another misunderstanding about the Catholic Church and Catholicism. I truly feel sorry for the avg. JW. My heart goes out to them. I do hope they know that they should have no fear, because the Lord is with them.

Do you feel like the picture in it was indirectly aimed at Catholic’s?

Yes, my personal opinion is that it is pointing the finger at Catholics.

How have you dealt with the tract when you have had a return visit from a jw?

I generally don’t have return visits. I only had 1 JW return to my home. Everyone else comes once and that’s it. I pass out my own literature to them. It is my opinion that they don’t come back to my home due to me handing out my own literature.

more next post

 

[Chris_LaRock]

I can’t see how JWs can say thier faith is ‘the truth’, considering the multiple doctrinal changes that have taken place over the years. I asked a JW I know this:

Did Jehovah’s Witnesses start off as a false religion, and then become the one true faith some time later as the teachings changed?

No answer!

 

[Mommyof02green]

Continue from last post

have you had any witnesses stop by your door since they dropped off the tract? How have you talked to them about it?

This last tract “The End of False Religion is Near!” they didn’t even knocked on my door. They just placed it on my porch slightly under the mat so it wouldn’t blow away. I had a JW come to my door 2 days before that with their watchtower publication and awake publication. I took the literature, because she was willing to take mine. 2 days later I found the “The End of False Religion is Near!” on my porch. I was home that day it was a Friday, I found the “The End of False Religion is Near” when I went outside Friday afternoon to get my child of the bus.

I wished they would of knocked. However, I figured that they didn’t knock because they didn’t want more of my literature. I also at first thought, that I had gotten this “special tract” because of the literature that I was handing out the JW that come to my door. I knew enough to know that this was not one of their “normal” publications….so I knew it was special. That is why I thought at first I got it due to me pasting out my own literature to the JW. It wasn’t until later when I found the “The End of False Religion is Near!” thread did I realize or know it was a “National Campaign”. I still wonder why the JW did not knock on my door. I wonder why it was just left on the porch. I may never know the answer to those questions.

Have you had a chance to speak to them about the tract? do you plan on speaking to them about it? I do. I downloaded Jeff’s tract, The End of False Prophecy is Here! and Iam going to do a preparation for the inevitable return visit from the lady who dropped it off. Iam going to talk to her about every issue they raise in the tract.

Seeing I don’t get return visits from the same JW I doubt that I will be able to talk to them about the tract face to face. I get JW that come to my door, however every time it’s a different person. So I don’t bring up what past JW bring to my door. I do review the literature, and mark anything I find to be in error. I then research it and toss the literature. I have a notebook with questions and references. If I get chance maybe I would pull out the notebook and share.

I wanted to invite Damascus, mommy of2, Kellie, Daniel Marsh and Catholic Dude as well as all the others who have responded in the post and those who have not but have received the tract to discuss your thoughts on it here.

Thanks again for your invite.

 

[Damascus]

What might make some aspects easier to deal with on each individual issue would be to have a side-by-side comparison format on the doctrines (their current ones) on one side, ours on one side. I have seen many periodicals from other faiths set up this way and I like it. Its a project I would like to persue. I think having it literally all spelled out helps and the comparison easy to see by a side by side helps those who skim through and overlook things stay focused. I think Jeff S. is a blessing to us all for doing his work. I wish we had periodicals to toss all over the place too though. But our Church is not a publishing house. I think it would be fantastic to have tracts like theirs that are purely Catholic and refute like theirs (supposedly) “without singling out any religion” common snares and spiritual traps set all around us.

With nice illustrations. Not nasty ones.

 

[Damascus]

I’m really sorry to divert a bit but I dont know how else to ask this question but here-
Are there any Catholic doctors on this forum that are familliar with the current allowable blood subsitutes the JW have approved and can explain to us all the different types?
there are so many lawsuits going on right now over this issue, and confusion about which are and which are not approved, based on their belief to refuse blood and their alterations of what type of fractions(and substitutes) are allowed it might be helpful to them and for us to know. I know of several witnesses that are not aware of which are allowable and if they dont know it could cost them their lives. If any of you have family members or friends that are witnesses you should get this information because many of them dont know themselves.

Sorry to derail the tract response. But, it does co-incide with the fact that this issue is just one of many that rings alarm bells to most about the veracity of that organization. The Catholic Church places a very high value on all life, and it is evident with this example and the ABC issue, that life is a cheap commodity in the WBTS.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

watchtowr light is not getting brighter and brighter, it is more like a strobe light, mostly off.

 

[Marilena]

mommy of 2,

i agree they are in a thicket of thorns and they do have to be led out gently. that is a very accurate statement, and one i intend to do, to gently help them out of the thorns.

i liken their situattion to being led by a wolf in sheeps clothing. the wolf covers himself over in a sheep outfit and the innocent sheep believe it and follow the wolf, and the wolf preys on the sheep.

the only way to lead the poor souls out of the society is being there for them and helping them to see the truth. but we must do as Christ would do in this situation, be charitable, be caring and compassiobnate to them while they search for the truth.

one day, the Master of the sheep will return and He will rid the sheep of the big bad wolf. He will cast the wolf out and all its mates with it. the Master of the sheep guides His followers to find the lost sheep and to lead them to the true path home to Him.

then the sheep will know the truth and see the light that is the truth, Jesus Christ.

 

[AHF]

Are there any Catholic doctors on this forum that are familliar with the current allowable blood subsitutes the JW have approved and can explain to us all the different types?
there are so many lawsuits going on right now over this issue, and confusion about which are and which are not approved, based on their belief to refuse blood and their alterations of what type of fractions(and substitutes) are allowed it might be helpful to them and for us to know. I know of several witnesses that are not aware of which are allowable and if they dont know it could cost them their lives. If any of you have family members or friends that are witnesses you should get this information because many of them dont know themselves.

Damascus - not put out by “Catholic doctors”, but still, I believe it contains the information you are looking for. ajwrb.org/

You are right in saying that many Witnesses, themselves, are not aware of what’s currently “allowed”. The Society is making distinctions at a level that would probably be difficult for some people without a background in science to understand.

The above site gives a fair reporting of their history on the blood issue, also.

 

[Damascus]

Damascus - not put out by “Catholic doctors”, but still, I believe it contains the information you are looking for. ajwrb.org/

You are right in saying that many Witnesses, themselves, are not aware of what’s currently “allowed”. **The Society is making distinctions at a level that would probably be difficult for some people without a background in science to understand. **
The above site gives a fair reporting of their history on the blood issue, also.

Here is the problem with that. THese distintions are not biblical. THey use an out of context biblical argument to say no to blood.
IF that is not bad enough, they take it a step further and make distinctions that are not biblical and attach it to the out of context “biblical” interpretation.

Is this “doctrinal development”?

How many educated witnesses are there? More now, but very few unless they are converts. The cradles did not “waste time and money on education” when the world would end so soon.

IF it takes scientific understanding to decipher all this, who in the R&F can do this without **being forced **to accept the organizations take on it? Are they qualifyed as an organization to make medical distinctions such as these as well as speak for God?
Where do their superpowers end?