For Female GIs, Combat Is A Fact

[Cubsfan]

Steph700:

What about all the daddies out there? Aren’t they just as important? Of COURSE they are.

Maybe I’m way off base here, but I think that it’s a problem with society that we view men as somewhat more disposable than women. That somehow it’s ok for them to go off and “break things and kill people” and come back in body bags. Some may ask why is it not ok for women to go off to war, another question is why is it not questioned that ANYBODY goes off to war?

I think part of the reason our society- and many, many societies- are failing is b/c men and women are treated so differently as parents. It’s ok for men to work 70 hour weeks and never see their kids as long as mom is a stay-at-home mom who homeschools the kids. Yeah right. Kids need fathers! Especially young boys! What is lacking in our society is fathering. Good, consistant fathering. Men cannot easily be caregivers for their kids, our companies are set up most of the time to give benefits such as maternity leave to mothers… paternity leave is rare and often only a fraction of the length of time mothers are allowed off from work. And job sharing or flex scheduling? Forget about it unless you want a low paying job (read: a “woman’s” job) or you are lucky enough to work for a company that cares about families.

The division of work and home and therefore men and women is a huge problem. It results in sons not having godly male role models- except on weekends!-, daughters not knowing how they should be treated by men (and we all know how important that is by the time girls are dating), women being forced to stay at home and sometimes literally losing their sanity, men being forced to work long hours and be away from their families. And that’s just in the home. What about the work place? Speaking as a 24 year old female, I am viewed as somewhat of a liability now and if I get married then I am an all-out no go in the eyes of employers. In the words of the VP at my office when considering hiring a 20-something woman “Well, how old is she? Is she married? Ya know, she could get pregnant”. Yeah, and heaven forbid we give fathers the opportunity to be caregivers alongside mothers.

Long story short, I think this problem is a lot deeper that just the military. It’s a problem with us thinking that the 1950’s model of a family is the “good” method, even though this method doesn’t historically match up with how families have functioned throughout the centuries.

You way off base. I really can’t buy into one thing that you have said. I have worked for small, medium and large corporations and in twenty years I have never heard consideration given for a womens age because she might get pregnant. This is one of those urban legends that is brought out of the closet every time someone wishes to lament the status of women in our society. I believe if you look at the 14 May 05 edition of the Sun Times there is a story in their about how 8.5 million women earn more than their spouse.

The 1950’s model of a family??? How about the current model. You know the one where there are no (nada, nunca, nyet, nie…) fathers at home or the one where the husband and or wife has been divorced at least once.

 

[Steph700]

Cubsfan:

… in twenty years I have never heard consideration given for a womens age because she might get pregnant. This is one of those urban legends that is brought out of the closet every time someone wishes to lament the status of women in our society.

It’s not much of an urban legend if it happened in my company with people I know, now is it? Let me tell you what a rude awakening corporate life has been for me… I come out of college 2 years ago with my degree and my knowledge of employment law and pow! I guess that stuff doesn’t really apply. It stinks. Urban legend it is not!

The 1950’s model of a family??? How about the current model. You know the one where there are no (nada, nunca, nyet, nie…) fathers at home or the one where the husband and or wife has been divorced at least once.

No arguments with you there, both models (from the '50s and now) are failures.

 

[gnjsdad]

Steph700:

What about all the daddies out there? Aren’t they just as important? Of COURSE they are.

Maybe I’m way off base here, but I think that it’s a problem with society that we view men as somewhat more disposable than women. That somehow it’s ok for them to go off and “break things and kill people” and come back in body bags. Some may ask why is it not ok for women to go off to war, another question is why is it not questioned that ANYBODY goes off to war?

In a perfect world, we wouldn’t need militaries and nobody would need to fight wars. But the issue here is women being sent to combat and what that says about a society that allows its government to do so.

 

[oat_soda]

St. Joan of Arc led the French military. I don’t think you meant to have her on your list.

i don’t think God chose a 14 yr. old girl to lead an army as a political statement that women should be soldiers but to show how God works through the weakest to accomplish his will lest we might brag -look at st. peter or the fact that God became man.

my experience in the military is that women are not and can’t be treated or looked upon the same as men. this causes tons of problems and is why i think they should be separate. men and women are different but equal in dignity. we each have different roles to fill and women in combat serving along men is contrary to the dignity of women.

a perfect example is the Virgin Mother -the ultimate role model for women. did she fight in the military?

No arguments with you there, both models (from the '50s and now) are failures.

what are you talking about? what specifically is wrong with the “50s style” family? did you read this in a book or learn this in college or something?

 

[siamesecat]

Steph700:

What about all the daddies out there? Aren’t they just as important? Of COURSE they are.

Maybe I’m way off base here, but I think that it’s a problem with society that we view men as somewhat more disposable than women. That somehow it’s ok for them to go off and “break things and kill people” and come back in body bags. Some may ask why is it not ok for women to go off to war, another question is why is it not questioned that ANYBODY goes off to war?

I think part of the reason our society- and many, many societies- are failing is b/c men and women are treated so differently as parents. It’s ok for men to work 70 hour weeks and never see their kids as long as mom is a stay-at-home mom who homeschools the kids. Yeah right. Kids need fathers! Especially young boys! What is lacking in our society is fathering. Good, consistant fathering. Men cannot easily be caregivers for their kids, our companies are set up most of the time to give benefits such as maternity leave to mothers… paternity leave is rare and often only a fraction of the length of time mothers are allowed off from work. And job sharing or flex scheduling? Forget about it unless you want a low paying job (read: a “woman’s” job) or you are lucky enough to work for a company that cares about families.

The division of work and home and therefore men and women is a huge problem. It results in sons not having godly male role models- except on weekends!-, daughters not knowing how they should be treated by men (and we all know how important that is by the time girls are dating), women being forced to stay at home and sometimes literally losing their sanity, men being forced to work long hours and be away from their families. And that’s just in the home. What about the work place? Speaking as a 24 year old female, I am viewed as somewhat of a liability now and if I get married then I am an all-out no go in the eyes of employers. In the words of the VP at my office when considering hiring a 20-something woman “Well, how old is she? Is she married? Ya know, she could get pregnant”. Yeah, and heaven forbid we give fathers the opportunity to be caregivers alongside mothers.

Long story short, I think this problem is a lot deeper that just the military. It’s a problem with us thinking that the 1950’s model of a family is the “good” method, even though this method doesn’t historically match up with how families have functioned throughout the centuries.

Agreed.

 

[Fitz]

Steph700:

Maybe I’m way off base here, but I think that it’s a problem with society that we view men as somewhat more disposable than women. That somehow it’s ok for them to go off and “break things and kill people” and come back in body bags. Some may ask why is it not ok for women to go off to war, another question is why is it not questioned that ANYBODY goes off to war?

Steph, no disrestpect and all but our soldiers aren’t trained to just go off and break things. I think you have some good points about the differences between men and women and no one really being disposable. However you don’t seem to be thankful for the protection our military provides to you.

My daughter is a Navy pilot and has been deployed to the Middle East once already and will go again soon. She has spent her time there protecting the Gulf from oil pirating and explosions. During her first deployment she saved fishermen in the Gulf whose boat was sinking and she also saved a Middle Eastern businessman that was on vacation on a boat in the Gulf.

I don’t expect you to understand my daughter and vice versa. She wanted to be a pilot and she wanted to be of service to her country. She is very proud of the job they have done so far, and we are also proud of her. She is one of many that give of themselves for our country and now for the Iraqis.

Right or wrong our women are proud to serve in our military. It is going to continue to be allowed. We live in a very fair country and they will never take away this privledge.

 

[Convert68]

OK. So why aren’t women subject to the draft? All 19 year old American men are required to register for the draft. Although no one has been drafted since the 1970’s, you can be sure that the government would scoop up all the cannon fodder if the nation’s existence was threatened as in 1941.

Women want better than equal opportunities in the military (physical standards are much lower) and equal credit for unequal sacrifice (“the men and women who died for our country” - Vietnam = 58,000 men, 8 women; present Iraq war = 1,500 men, 31 women).

Service should either be exactly equal: the draft, equal physical standards, equal risks or perhaps we should acknowledge that God created us male and female - actually male or female. We’re entirely different physically and mentally. Men have to bear the burden of doing the heavy lifting in war (part of Adam’s curse) but in return should get acknowledgement and thanks for their obligation and sacrifice.
John Higgins:

Dad,

Wrong. Here’s the correct quote:

When American military personnel start coming home from Iraq in body bags, it’s a victory for the Culture of Death.

The rest of it my sister the recently retired Air Force colonel (pilot/navigator) would tell you is garbage. As a veteran myself and the son and grandson of veterans, I say whoever wishes to serve our country in whatever way they are capable must be permitted to do so.

John

 

[chevalier]

One thing I know is that women in the army don’t look the same as women in POW camps. What’s the chance of a female POW not being raped?

 

[Fitz]

chevalier:

One thing I know is that women in the army don’t look the same as women in POW camps. What’s the chance of a female POW not being raped?

Look, women are raped at home, at war, in foreign countries, on dates, on college campuses, on high school campuses, on grammar school campuses while people take videos (current situation in the news) . It is a horrible crime and one that we as women have had to deal with and teach our daughters about.

Men in POW camps are raped, tortured, etc. No one wants this for anyone. Women and men in POW camps should be avoided at all cost. If it happens then we have to deal with it.

 

[chevalier]

But the odds of women getting raped are much higher. You can come back from captivity without being raped in the process if you’re male. Can’t imagine this happening for a female. I can’t imagine a woman including POW camp rape in her military future calculations. This isn’t natural.

 

[Steph700]

Fitz:

However you don’t seem to be thankful for the protection our military provides to you.

My daughter is a Navy pilot and has been deployed to the Middle East once already and will go again soon…

No, that isn’t the case at all. I’m extremely thankful for these men and women! I’m sure you are so proud of your daughter.

I’m especially found of the navy… while I was living in London an American Navy family took me under their wing and I’ll be eternally grateful to them.

I appreciate their service, I get all weepy in church when they come home and father acknowledges them… I never want them put in harm’s way if at all possible and I appreciate their sacrifice.

I’m sorry if I implied otherwise, that was not my intention. My quote about “breaking things and killing people” was a direct quote from a previous poster.

 

[gnjsdad]

Fitz:

Steph, no disrestpect and all but our soldiers aren’t trained to just go off and break things.

But, when all else is stripped away, that is the ultimate purpose of a military. Do you disagree with Rush Limbaugh?

Fitz:

I think you have some good points about the differences between men and women and no one really being disposable. However you don’t seem to be thankful for the protection our military provides to you.

I, along with most Americans, are extremely grateful to those who volunteer to serve. But must we pay homage, as you seem to be asking? It seems as if you resent it if somebody doesn’t begin every post with I thank you for your service in the military…

Fitz:

Right or wrong our women are proud to serve in our military. It is going to continue to be allowed. We live in a very fair country and they will never take away this privledge.

I have no doubt that it will continue to be allowed, and that if the draft returns, women will be taken.

 

[Lisa_N]

gnjsdad:

But, when all else is stripped away, that is the ultimate purpose of a military. Do you disagree with Rush Limbaugh?.

The purpose of the military is to protect the citizens of a country. I am very happy that some sacrifice so much to protect me. Since you proudly go by the handle of somebody’s dad, aren’t you grateful there are men and women willing to die to protect YOUR kid?

gnjsdad:

I, along with most Americans, are extremely grateful to those who volunteer to serve. But must we pay homage, as you seem to be asking? It seems as if you resent it if somebody doesn’t begin every post with I thank you for your service in the military….

YOu know many of us experienced a period of time when the military was considered a lower life form. I think many of us wish to make up for our past transgressions. Having grown up with bleeding heart liberal parents who protested the war (Vietnam) I had the same stupid attitude. I imagine anyone who was in the military at that time appreciates that we FINALLY acknowledge what a sacrifice they have made.

gnjsdad:

I have no doubt that it will continue to be allowed, and that if the draft returns, women will be taken.

And why not? There is absolutely no reason that any healthy young person should not serve their country when called. The ISSUE here is not whether women should serve but whether they should be in combat. I say not in the infantry or hand to hand combat but women do have a role in the service.

LIsa N

 

[Convert68]

I have no doubt that it will continue to be allowed, and that if the draft returns, women will be taken.

The draft has returned. Since Pres. Reagan’s term all MEN have to register at age 19. Feminist organizations opposed a court challenge that would have included women or disallowed the draft. So the men-only draft is constitutional. Israel is the only country in the world that drafts women and even there it is to provide support and not primary combat roles. All over the world young men and boys are forced into the armies of warlords and dictators and sent into situations where they face nearly certain death or mutilation. The circumstances of the sexes are not equal. Men in my generation grew up hearing about the horrors of World War I from our grandfathers and knew that we but not our sisters could experience a similar fate when we grew up. We lived with fear not only of what could happen to us but also and perhaps more so of failing in what would be expected of us.

 

[Fitz]

gnjsdad:

I, along with most Americans, are extremely grateful to those who volunteer to serve. But must we pay homage, as you seem to be asking? It seems as if you resent it if somebody doesn’t begin every post with I thank you for your service in the military…

I don’t resent posts that are not paying homage to the military. I just went back and reread my original posts and I am not asking for thanks for my daughter. However, when I have some information about a topic I feel like I should say something. This does affect my family. Not all people have a female in the family that is in the military. I just wanted to speak up. OK?

I noticed another poster had a sister that was in the millitary and they also spoke up.

I don’t think I like women in combat either. I did not like thinking about my daughter being captured for any reason. Her job would be to help out another that was in distress however I know things happen. The last month she was in the Gulf there were many reports about the enemy wanting to capture a female soldier. I hated listening to the news.

Yet, my daughter is a good pilot and she wants to serve her country. I think I would have worried as much if it had been my son over there.

 

[Shinobu]

Philip P:

Really, this is all somewhat disgusting. We’re apparently completely ok with OTHER people paying the price of war, but not us or our families. If women in combat disturbs you all so much, perhaps you ought to consider your strong support for men in combat, too.

Honestly, I’m not for this war at all. I don’t like any war. I’m not going to praise and encourage anyone to start a war or go to war, weither it’s for a “good cause” or not, unless God himself comes to me and tells me so.

I don’t want men going ot war and I definately don’t want woman going to war. Look at all the psychological problems our men come back with. We have no idea how the people over there are suffering, the news for the most part, does not show us this. They show the dead bodies of our enemies on tv as if they were trophies yet our own dead we cover and mourn.

This war we are at now, the Pope himself was against (correct me if I am wrong).

 

[gilliam]

Shinobu:

Honestly, I’m not for this war at all. I don’t like any war. I’m not going to praise and encourage anyone to start a war or go to war, weither it’s for a “good cause” or not, unless God himself comes to me and tells me so.

I don’t want men going ot war and I definately don’t want woman going to war. Look at all the psychological problems our men come back with. We have no idea how the people over there are suffering, the news for the most part, does not show us this. They show the dead bodies of our enemies on tv as if they were trophies yet our own dead we cover and mourn.

This war we are at now, the Pope himself was against (correct me if I am wrong).

The Pope is in favor of the US staying in Iraq until the Iraqis can protect their own democracy. I don’t know how you can be against that.

 

[TPJCatholic]

Women should not be in the battlefield, yet they are and there is little anyone can do now.

 

[Philip_P]

But he was not in favor of us going to Iraq in the first place. Don’t try to confuse things that way; it’s dishonest.

 

[Lisa_N]

Philip P:

But he was not in favor of us going to Iraq in the first place. Don’t try to confuse things that way; it’s dishonest.

You EXPECT the POPE to encourage a war under any circumstances? How many Popes cheered WWII? Do most of us think it was worthwhile anyway?

Everything John Paull II said was in keeping with Catholic teachings. The Pope is hardly going to rah rah a military action regardless of the circumstances. He didn’t suggest military action in the Sudan although people are dying of starvation much less supporting deposing a brutal tyrant.

Lisa N