For German bishops mercy comes at a price, critics charge

[guanophore]

But, they are denying children Sacraments based solely on what the parents state on a tax form and not what the practice of the parents. It was previously commented because the people are apostates. How can an infant or child too young to pay taxes be an apostate in this case?

How can the Church expect that the child will be raised in a faith that the parents have publicly rejected?

 

[guanophore]

But what was claimed was the Church can’t exercise temporal authority via a tax. And it certainly can.

If this tax was immoral (along with all the other taxes in Europe), I’m sure something would’ve been done by now, actually probably a LONG time ago.

Perhaps the situation could be better, but its certainly not immoral.

I agree, but the tax is not authorized by the Church. It is a policy of the government. The Church is permitted to exist and be funded within the parameters established by the government.

 

[Dawnia]

How can the Church expect that the child will be raised in a faith that the parents have publicly rejected?

They verify it the same way they would for someone who pays the tax. Paying the tax doesn’t guarantee a child will be raised in the faith at all. There are a large number of people who support the Church through the tax, yet never set foot inside a Church. The tax should not be what determines if someone receives the Sacraments.

 

[1newcatholic]

Saying you aren’t Catholic to “Caesar” to avoid paying an illegal and immoral Church tax hardly constitutes apostasy or repudiation of the Faith.

Saying you aren’t CHRISTIAN to “Caesar” FOR ANY REASON constitutes apostasy or repudiation of the Faith.

 

[Kindness]

I’m sorry I have not read the whole thread just the first few pages.

I live in Germany and the church here is rapidly shrinking and seems to be dying, at least in our region (south-central Germany). I am in my 40s and often one of the youngest at Mass. Children are rare at Mass, on Sundays other than our own children there may just be a handful of others. Most of the congregation is retired and so at least two, if not three generations are missing. In the past (in the last couple of hundred years) there were two convents in our village plus a Jesuit community. I believe the invasion of Napoleon meant he closed down most, if not all Catholic religious institutes and I don’t know if they returned.

In the meantime Germany has the richest national Catholic church in the world and runs numerous hospitals, kindergartens, schools etc. employing about 1 million people. They do not do any kind of evangelization or catechesis as far as I can tell after living here for 6 years. Most of the ancient churches have been stripped bare of ancient art and stained glass etc. Some are still beautiful and historic in a traditional Catholic way but others have been stripped as I mentioned, in fact I thought our local Catholic church was a Lutheran church when I first arrived as it was so minimalistic.

I don’t think the tax has anything to do with socialism, if anything I think it was introduced under right wing governments and powers. I don’t know the history of the tax but I think it predates socialism. In my own experience most priests here are very liberal and don’t seem to teach the faith in it’s completeness. I do know at least one young (40s) orthodox priest who is great. I hope the situation is better further south in the Catholic heartland of Bavaria where Pope Benedict is from. But generally this is not an evangelizing church, but a very comfortable church which does not challenge the culture.

 

[TEPO]

Saying you aren’t CHRISTIAN to “Caesar” FOR ANY REASON constitutes apostasy or repudiation of the Faith.

St. Peter was also an apostate, when he denied Jesus 3 times. Jesus didnt excommunicate St. peter knowing that though, rather He made him leader of the Church…

…How do we reconcile this, knowing that Peter repented -yet Catholic apostates in Germany are denied all sacraments including confession.

 

[TEPO]

How can the Church expect that the child will be raised in a faith that the parents have publicly rejected?

How could Jesus expect that the Church could remain Christian, when the very first Pope publically rejected Jesus?

He did though. Its called MERCY, and it worked.

I never heard any gospel either, where Jesus threatened excommunication of apostates, or denied any baptisms. John and Jesus baptized everyone they could.

 

[TEPO]

Catholicism, in my view, would be better if it stopped acting like a membership club, and shifted to a universal Church. We need an open door. We need to become a missionary church. Besides, what is the damage in baptizing someone Catholic who we “assume” wont be guided by the HS to remain Catholic? Especially considering we are already sending assumed apostates away? Irrational.

…there is no ‘second best’. There is no ‘alternative’ path, and to say otherwise is a protestant rooted ideal in my view.

 

[TEPO]

The problem, i think, is that Catholics view Canon laws as a guide for morals. Choosing man-made laws over the deposit of Faith.

Divine revelation is the only source for morals. We cannot look to the Canons for moral advice, because they are merely a ‘reflection’ of the truth, with worldly attatchments.

 

[Dawnia]

Saying you aren’t CHRISTIAN to “Caesar” FOR ANY REASON constitutes apostasy or repudiation of the Faith.

Baloney. There were Martyrs that denied their faith to government officials, yet instead of dismissing them as apostates, their sacrifice for the faith is celebrated.

Apostacy is the rebellion against God, not taxes.

 

[ProVobis]

The problem, i think, is that Catholics view Canon laws as a guide for morals. Choosing man-made laws over the deposit of Faith.

Divine revelation is the only source for morals. We cannot look to the Canons for moral advice, because they are merely a ‘reflection’ of the truth, with worldly attatchments.

The early church fathers, as well as Popes like St. John Paul II, looked to Cicero as a basis for establishing civil moral code. It might not be a bad idea to re-examine writings such as De Officiis to supplement our Bible readings.

 

[guanophore]

Can. 1259 The Church can acquire temporal goods by every just means of natural or positive law permitted to others.

Can. 1260 The Church has an innate right to require from the Christian faithful those things which are necessary for the purposes proper to it.

Can. 1262 The faithful are to give support to the Church by responding to appeals and according to the norms issued by the conference of bishops.but themselves and socialist ideals.

And the Catechism also says, “The following are also morally illicit: …tax evasion” (CCC 2409).

I think it is important to recognize that this tax does not originate in the Church, but in the civil authority.

The CC in Germany has clearly agreed with this method of colllecting tithes, for better or for worse.

So then you admit, that you believe anyone who chooses to keep private their religious affiluation, is absolutely suffering from a mental illness, and that for that reason, they deserve excommunication from the Church.

…otherwise, you will have to admit that circumstances should be considered before denying tbe sacraments. You cant have both, neither can the Bishops in Germany.

Certainly three are people who are mentally ill that cannot be held responsible for breaking the civil law.

There are also reasons one may wish to protect one’s privacy. But in this case, the Church affiliation is not being used to persecute anyone (Germany is not rooting out and exhiling Catholics or putting them into prison camps). The information is used to make sure the parish gets their fair share of the tax.

 

[1newcatholic]

Baloney. There were Martyrs that denied their faith to government officials, yet instead of dismissing them as apostates, their sacrifice for the faith is celebrated.

Apostacy is the rebellion against God, not taxes.

If they denied their faith, why were they martyred? Give me an example or two so I can research this further.

Denying your faith in Jesus to weasel out of a tax you don’t like? “You cannot serve both God and Mammon.”

 

[1newcatholic]

St. Peter was also an apostate, when he denied Jesus 3 times. Jesus didnt excommunicate St. peter knowing that though, rather He made him leader of the Church…

…How do we reconcile this, knowing that Peter repented -yet Catholic apostates in Germany are denied all sacraments including confession.

You keep calling it excommunication. Are you sure that’s what the bishops call it? Because the article says, over and over again, “critics charge,” and “critics say,” which means that there is an accusation being made, but not that it’s true. This seems like a lame excuse for people who hate the divorce-remarriage communion proposal to throw a tantrum–this has been an ongoing issue for literally decades, and now suddenly people care?

When you and I mortally sin, we’re not “excommunicated,” we’re just not supposed to eat the host until we’ve gone to confession–you know, like Peter, who had a long, private conversation with Jesus after the resurrection.

Only the Donatists would say that apostasy and denying Jesus are “unforgivable sins,” and that’s not what I’m seeing being discussed on this thread.

EDIT: “While these penalties have been described as “de facto excommunication,” the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, wrote in a March 13, 2006 document that opting out of taxes in a civil situation was not the same as renouncing the faith, and thus excommunication did not apply to such persons.”

They’re not excommunicated. They’re just not allowed to pretend they’re not Catholic when it’s financially convenient and then do all the church stuff when they feel like it.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

They’re not excommunicated. They’re just not allowed to pretend they’re not Catholic when it’s financially convenient and then do all the church stuff when they feel like it.

It is not your place to decide who’s Catholic and who isn’t. I guess if you don’t like to pay a tax that automatically makes you a tea party person and hence very bad!!!

 

[TEPO]

You keep calling it excommunication. Are you sure that’s what the bishops call it? Because the article says, over and over again, “critics charge,” and “critics say,” which means that there is an accusation being made, but not that it’s true. This seems like a lame excuse for people who hate the divorce-remarriage communion proposal to throw a tantrum–this has been an ongoing issue for literally decades, and now suddenly people care?

When you and I mortally sin, we’re not “excommunicated,” we’re just not supposed to eat the host until we’ve gone to confession–you know, like Peter, who had a long, private conversation with Jesus after the resurrection.

Only the Donatists would say that apostasy and denying Jesus are “unforgivable sins,” and that’s not what I’m seeing being discussed on this thread.

EDIT: “While these penalties have been described as “de facto excommunication,” the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, wrote in a March 13, 2006 document that opting out of taxes in a civil situation was not the same as renouncing the faith, and thus excommunication did not apply to such persons.”

They’re not excommunicated. They’re just not allowed to pretend they’re not Catholic when it’s financially convenient and then do all the church stuff when they feel like it.

Should we be willing to dismiss the accounts of the German Catholics being refused confession over this tax?

I’d be interested in hearing a logical defence for how non-excommunicated Catholics could be refused confession. I suspect denial would be the only defence. We often refuse to accept things we dont want to be true.

…you did see that part in the article, right?

 

[TEPO]

From the Article::

'they have simultaneously denied the sacraments, including even Confession, to those who opt out of paying Germany’s “church tax”

…

 

[FollowChrist34]

I’m sorry I have not read the whole thread just the first few pages.

I live in Germany and the church here is rapidly shrinking and seems to be dying, at least in our region (south-central Germany). I am in my 40s and often one of the youngest at Mass. Children are rare at Mass, on Sundays other than our own children there may just be a handful of others. Most of the congregation is retired and so at least two, if not three generations are missing. In the past (in the last couple of hundred years) there were two convents in our village plus a Jesuit community. I believe the invasion of Napoleon meant he closed down most, if not all Catholic religious institutes and I don’t know if they returned.

In the meantime Germany has the richest national Catholic church in the world and runs numerous hospitals, kindergartens, schools etc. employing about 1 million people. They do not do any kind of evangelization or catechesis as far as I can tell after living here for 6 years. Most of the ancient churches have been stripped bare of ancient art and stained glass etc. Some are still beautiful and historic in a traditional Catholic way but others have been stripped as I mentioned, in fact I thought our local Catholic church was a Lutheran church when I first arrived as it was so minimalistic.

I don’t think the tax has anything to do with socialism, if anything I think it was introduced under right wing governments and powers. I don’t know the history of the tax but I think it predates socialism. In my own experience most priests here are very liberal and don’t seem to teach the faith in it’s completeness. I do know at least one young (40s) orthodox priest who is great. I hope the situation is better further south in the Catholic heartland of Bavaria where Pope Benedict is from. But generally this is not an evangelizing church, but a very comfortable church which does not challenge the culture.

Thank you - I enjoyed reading this. Hopefully it is different in Bavaria but who knows. I was in Munich in 2010 and the Churches I saw were full for Mass. But I am not surprised to hear this assessment of the Church in Germany at all - it is exactly what I suspected and have heard from others - orthodoxy not being that strong and most in the Church being elderly. Here and there I think there are younger orthodox movements in Europe - hopefully Germany too soon.

 

[TEPO]

I’m sorry I have not read the whole thread just the first few pages.

I live in Germany and the church here is rapidly shrinking and seems to be dying, at least in our region (south-central Germany). I am in my 40s and often one of the youngest at Mass. Children are rare at Mass, on Sundays other than our own children there may just be a handful of others. Most of the congregation is retired and so at least two, if not three generations are missing. In the past (in the last couple of hundred years) there were two convents in our village plus a Jesuit community. I believe the invasion of Napoleon meant he closed down most, if not all Catholic religious institutes and I don’t know if they returned.

In the meantime Germany has the richest national Catholic church in the world and runs numerous hospitals, kindergartens, schools etc. employing about 1 million people. They do not do any kind of evangelization or catechesis as far as I can tell after living here for 6 years. Most of the ancient churches have been stripped bare of ancient art and stained glass etc. Some are still beautiful and historic in a traditional Catholic way but others have been stripped as I mentioned, in fact I thought our local Catholic church was a Lutheran church when I first arrived as it was so minimalistic.

I don’t think the tax has anything to do with socialism, if anything I think it was introduced under right wing governments and powers. I don’t know the history of the tax but I think it predates socialism. In my own experience most priests here are very liberal and don’t seem to teach the faith in it’s completeness. I do know at least one young (40s) orthodox priest who is great. I hope the situation is better further south in the Catholic heartland of Bavaria where Pope Benedict is from. But generally this is not an evangelizing church, but a very comfortable church which does not challenge the culture.

Yes, thank you for this. Its hard to get an accurate description of things sometimes when language barriers stand in the way. Fortunately, you’re here to translate the situation for us.

 

[guanophore]

It is not your place to decide who’s Catholic and who isn’t.

Exactly! It is up to those persons to declare themselves. If they deny they are Catholic to avoid paying the tithe, they have publicly testified against their faith. If the priest then participates in their misrepresenting themselves to the government, then he participates in their sin.

I guess if you don't like to pay a tax that automatically makes you a tea party person and hence very bad!!!

A lot of us don’t like paying taxes, but disliking it and lying to get out of it are two different things.

Should we be willing to dismiss the accounts of the German Catholics being refused confession over this tax?

No, but it is likely that we are not getting the whole story.

A priest can refuse absolution to those who are unrepentant. If the “catholic” refuses to make restitution by paying the tax, should they expect to be forgiven?

I’d be interested in hearing a logical defence for how non-excommunicated Catholics could be refused confession.

They have publicly testified they are not Catholic. The Sacrament o Confession is not offered to non-Catholics.