For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Can you give me the verse where he confessed his sins.

He state he is deserving of death for his deeds, but I do not see a confession of his deeds. This is confessing that he is sinful and that Jesus is Lord and Savior as Paul states/

He’s admitting that he’s a sinful man deserving death for his sins and asking Jesus to save him.

Sounds like a confession of his sins with a desire to repent of these sins to me.

simbagizmo:

Sure, this is the Spirit and being reborn as discussed in John. But this is done by the Holy Spirit and not by the thief. This happens when one comes receives the gift of Faith.

No. This happens when someone does nothing-- and the motion of the Holy Spirit moves them (animates them) according to God’s will.

simbagizmo:

True. But I have to choose to accept it.

No you don’t. The only real choice you have is to reject it.

According to 1 Timothy 2:4 God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. This desire for all men to be saved is reflected by the fact that we are to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do as Ephesians 2:10 clearly states.

In other words, God indeed did fore-ordain the paths that we are to walk in. And if we do walk in them it is because we have not resisted the Holy Spirit. In other words, when we walk in the paths which God has fore-ordain we have done nothing but walk according to the desire, motion and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we cannot take the credit for anything. God has done this through us by his Holy Spirit entirely and independantly of our own will.

simbagizmo:

I could choose to reject it like the prince.

Yes. The prince of the power of the air has indeed rejected it-- and he is spiritualy dead and cut off from God’s Holy Spirit because of his primordial transgression against the Holy Spirit.

If we follow in the adversary’s footsteps, then we too are rejecting the Holy Spirit-- essentially cutting ourselves off from God’s grace and potentially blaspheming the Holy Spirit in doing so.

But if you’re talking about the rich prince, that’s another story.

To say that God has fore-ordain the paths that we are to walk in is to say that God has prepared good works in advance for us to do by the Holy Spirit. God has not prepared any evil works in advance for us to do-- only good works.

simbagizmo:

So yes, we do have to make a choice. God’s does not force us to accept His gift of Faith.

I never said God forces us. In fact, I’ve been clearly saying from the beginning that God gave us the free-will to reject the motion of the Holy Spirit. This is exactly what I’ve noted that this should not be confused with the idea of irresistable grace. God passively moves us by his Holy Spirit and allows us the freedom to completely resist this motion if we so choose.

simbagizmo:

So if you want to consider this work, then this is one we must do.

No. If this man had gone and sold his possessions and gave them to the poor, this would’ve been a manifestation (or sufficeint evidence) of the Holy Spirit being at work in him.

These were words specifically for this man– and there are other cases where Jesus told people not to follow him. God does not call all people to the same degree that he did this rich prince quite simply because he gives these gifts to each one, just as he determines.

For example, Matthew 19:12 says that some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.

But obviously not all people can accept this. And Jesus, by his own admission, doesn’t expect all people to accept this.

simbagizmo:

But this is not the Work as talked about by Paul and James.

Why not?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I have always stated that Faith by definition is conviction. But works is not necessary for salvation. Works done is response to Faith is different than works done to earn Faith or Grace.

Faith is a work of the Holy Spirit. I’ve already pointed this out.

In fact, faith is listed right along with the messages of wisdom, messages of knowledge, gifts of healing, miraculous powers, prophesying, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in different kinds of tongues, and the interpretation of tongues.

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

No one can take the credit for being able to give messages of wisdom, messages of knowledge, gifts of healing, miraculous powers, prophesying, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in different kinds of tongues, or the interpretation of tongues.

In all these above cases God is manifesting something within them by the same Spirit, working through them in a way that they are quite frankly incapable of doing by their own human power or intellect.

Why should the gift of faith be any different from the other eight gifts listed above?

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Philippians 2:13 says that it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Paul does say in Colossians 1:29, “To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.”

Peter asks, “Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?”

He later clarfies, “It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.”

These passages are clearly indicating that this faith is a supernatural gift which comes through Jesus-- this is a supernatural faith that comes through Jesus.

Based on what I’ve presented above, I honestly don’t see how anyone could argue otherwise.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

This doesn’t answer my question. You stated…

“God believes through us by the same Spirit”.

I asked what is God believing through us?

Well, then I think you need to pray about this formula a little bit more…

What is God speaking through us by the same Spirit?
What is God performing miracles through us by the same Spirit?
What is God loving humanity through us by the same Spirit?
What is God believing in through us by the same Spirit?

Think about it.

simbagizmo:

Not to be disrespectful here, but this again does not address my point.

Yes it does. It calls into question the interpretive process that you are using when you claim that it is our faith that saves us.

I’ve pointed to passages of Scripture which indicate that God raised Jesus in response to Jesus’ faith in the Father-- and yet we are aware of other passages which indicates that Jesus raised himself by ascending into heaven by his own power too.

Similarly, you’ve pointed to passages of Scripture which indicate that we are saved by our faith in Jesus in response to God’s grace-- and yet we are aware of other passages which indicates that this faith is a supernatural faith just like other works of the Holy Spirit that comes only through Jesus too.

Ephesians 4:4-6 says that there is…

…one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

This passage alone indicates that there is only one faith which is shared by all true believers.

Where does this one faith come from?

Romans 12:3 says…

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Does this passage not indicate that God has given us this faith?

Ephesians 6:23 says…

Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Does this passage not indicate that this faith comes God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ?

As 2 Peter 1:3-4 clearly states, his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

This knowledge isn’t the ‘intellectual knowledge’ which the world proclaims as knowledge. Neither is this knowledge the ‘secret knowledge’ which the gnostics proclaim as knowledge.

As 2 Corinthians 4:6 says, God said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” and made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Jesus is the true light that gives light to every man who is coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

 

[Pug]

What I’m saying is that “by grace you have been saved through faith, and this faith through God’s grace is not from you.”

Which is pretty much the same thing, I think anyway.

Maybe it is the same thing, but I’m not sure. I do agree that faith is from God. Faith, hope, and love are gifts from God.

But he still does seem to be saying that this faith is God’s faith, which he shares with us by his grace.

Just because it is from God is not a denial that it has been made to be ours. Our merits, for example, are deemed to be ours because God has freely associated them with us, but of course they are a gift from God, and hence not ours as well.

And if someone is claming that they’ve been saved by their faith in God, then they are claiming to have “done something” to earn their salvation. And yet the Scriptures are clear that our own works do not save us. God’s grace saves us.

Faith is not some work of man that causes or merits justification, agreed.

No. We must do nothing. In fact, God demands that we do nothing of our own free-will – because our own free-will leads to sin and death. It is only when we do nothing that the motion of the Spirit can move us to believe that God then indwells us and believes on our behalf by the Holy Spirit.

This bothers me on some level. It is true that, unmoved by grace, our will cannot get us to salvation. But moved by grace, it is wrong to say that our will is some inanimate thing that truly does nothing at all. It could reject the grace, but it does not do so. Trent rejects calling whatever it is that we do prior to justification to be truly nothing or fully passive. However, it is not a meritorious cause of our justification. Just because it doesn’t merit does not mean that it wasn’t done.

This thread is moving too fast for me to keep up, so this may be on the thread already: NIV Hebrews 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith… I think this is rather in line with some of your points.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

These verses, and many more, shows the Jesus is referring to is in fact the believers Faith. What is scripture do you uses to support that these people’s is not their faith? Because scripture is clear that it is their faith.

No. The Scriptures are clear that there is only one faith, and that this one faith is shared by all true believers. As I already pointed out in Ephesians 4:4-6…

There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

There is only one faith.

Indeed, 1 Peter 4:11 says if anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. Likewise, if anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

You still don’t understand what I mean when I say that God believes through us by the same Spirit?

I’m not denying anything about Christ’s supremacy by claiming that he’s sharing his faith with us and enabling us to believe by the Holy Spirit. I’m simply saying that in all things God must be praised through Jesus Christ. It is not our own individual faith that saves us. It is the One Faith that proceeds from Christ’s faith from God that saves us by his grace through the Holy Spirit.

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Please think about what I’m trying to explain to you.

 

[simbagizmo]

Yes it does. It calls into question the interpretive process that you are using when you claim that it is our faith that saves us.

When Jesus asked his apostles, “where is your Faith” (Luke 8:25), you can try to interpret that anyway you want. The word used for “your” has a pretty clear definition.

G5216
Genitive case of G5210; of (from or concerning) you: - ye, you, your (own, -selves).

I’ve pointed to passages of Scripture which indicate that God raised Jesus in response to Jesus’ faith in the Father-- and yet we are aware of other passages which indicates that Jesus raised himself by ascending into heaven by his own power too.

Similarly, you’ve pointed to passages of Scripture which indicate that we are saved by our faith in Jesus in response to God’s grace-- and yet we are aware of other passages which indicates that this faith is a supernatural faith just like other works of the Holy Spirit that comes only through Jesus too.

Ephesians 4:4-6 says that there is…
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This passage alone indicates that there is only one faith which is shared by all true believers.

Faith in Eph 4:5 is defined as shown below

persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

This is a belief, an assurance, a reliance on Christ, a truth. This is not a thing that is shared, but a personal conviction.

Jesus is the true light that gives light to every man who is coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Let’s take a look at your statement above.

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Here is the decision made by people to reject His gift. Jesus offered the Gift, but it was rejected by the people.

Yet to all who received him,

Here is a decision made by people to receive His gift. These people make the decision to receive the gift, prior to having the gift. Notice the past tense used for the word “received”

to those who believed in his name,

Here again is talking about the decision by people to believe. Again notice the past tense word used for “believed”.

he gave the right to become children of God

After they, past tense, believed, they then, past tense, received, the right to become children of God. The believers do not have the gift at the time of believing. The receive the gift after they make a decision to believe. This leads back to your post title “We are saved by Grace, Through Faith”. We must first believe and through that belief we receive.

— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

After making the decision and receiving the gift, the believer is reborn in Spirit by God and not of themselves.

I would like to discuss this verse with you for a minute. I do not have time now, but will come back to this.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision

or a husband’s will, but born of God.

After making the decision and receiving the gift, the believer is reborn in Spirit by God and not of themselves.

Did you even read the passage that you just quoted?

No. There is no human decision being made.

We are God’s children when we are born of the Holy Spirit.

Claming that humanity makes the decision to believe in God seriously distorts the grace of God into a form of works righteousness which claims that man has saved himself when he believes in Jesus.

The children of God do not ‘decide’ when they are going to be born, just like how babies in this world do not ‘decide’ when they are going to be born.

And just like children being conceived in the womb make no ‘decision’ regarding their conception, neither do the children of God ‘decide’ when they will be conceived either.

This spiritual birth comes about by God’s Spirit being deposited within the believer, becoming living temples of the Holy Spirit, therefore enabling Christ to manifest in their lives, believe through them and on their behalf as they are raised toward God by the power of Christ’s resurrection.

 

[simbagizmo]

Did you even read the passage that you just quoted?

No. There is no human decision being made.

Actually, it was your quote, and yes I read it and gave comments sentence by sentence.

Please give me your interpretation of whose faith Jesus is talking about in verse Luke 8:25 below. Is this Jesus’s Faith in the apostles he is asking about, or the apostles faith?

Luke 8
24 They came to Jesus and woke Him up, saying, “Master, Master, we are perishing!” And He got up and rebuked the wind and the surging waves, and they stopped, and it became calm.

25 And He said to them, “Where is your faith?” They were fearful and amazed, saying to one another, “Who then is this, that He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey Him?”

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

When Jesus asked his apostles, “where is your Faith” (Luke 8:25), you can try to interpret that anyway you want. The word used for “your” has a pretty clear definition.

Yes. And I’ve never denied that God gave them a portion of his faith to manifest in them. This faith belongs to them in the sense that Christ has given this faith to them. In other words, it is theirs in the sense that Christ gave it to them. It is a free gift.

Romans 12:3 says for by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

God has given this gift of faith to them in the exact same way that God has given all the gifts of the Spirit to them, acting through them by the Holy Spirit just as he always does in all other cases.

1. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to speak a message of knowledge, God is revealing this message of knowledge through them, essentially speaking the message of knowledge through them.
2. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to speak a message of wisdom, God is revealing this message of wisdom through them, essentially speaking the message of wisdom through them.
3. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to perform a gift of healing, God is revealing this gift of healing through them, essentially performing the gift of healing through them.
4. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to perform a miraculous power, God is revealing this miraculous power through them, essentially performing the miraculous power through them.
5. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to prophesy, God is revealing this prophesy through them, essentially prophesying through them.
6. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to distinguish between spirits, God is revealing this distinguishing between spirits through them, essentially distinguishing between spirits through them.
7. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to speak in different kinds of tongues, God is revealing this speaking in different kinds of tongues through them, essentially speaking in different kinds of tongues through them.
8. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to interpret these tongues, God is revealing this interpretation of these tongues through them, essentially interpreting these tongues through them.
   In all these above cases God is manifesting something within them by the same Spirit, working through them in a way that they are quite frankly incapable of doing by their own human power or intellect.

Why should the gift of faith be any different from the theodynamics of the other eight gifts listed above?

1. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to have faith in Jesus, God is revealing this faith in Jesus through them, essentially having faith in Jesus through them.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Let’s take a look at your statement above.

It’s actually not my statement. It from the beginning paragraphs of the Gospel according to John.

simbagizmo:

Gospel according to John:

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Here is the decision made by people to reject His gift. Jesus offered the Gift, but it was rejected by the people.

Yes. And I’ve never denied that people can reject this motion of the Spirit. I’ve stated that from the beginning-- its the only decision they can make.

simbagizmo:

Gospel according to John:

Yet to all who received him,

Here is a decision made by people to receive His gift.

No. This is no more of a decision to receive his gift than a boxer who decided to receive a good right hook resulting in a TKO…



…or New Orleans and surrounding area deciding to receive Huricane Katrina resulting in at least 1,836 people losing their lives…



…or various nations along the Indian Ocean deciding to receive a series of tsunamis on December 26, 2004 resulting in the deaths of approximately 230,000 people …

simbagizmo:

These people make the decision to receive the gift, prior to having the gift. Notice the past tense used for the word “received”

Yes. But you’re asumming that received means that we’ve done something to earn it. It doesn’t. It doesn’t always mean this even in the secular world. And it definitely doesn’t mean this in a Scriptural sense.

As I noted above, people can receive things that are entirely out of their control and have nothing to do with whether they ‘decided’ to receive it or not…such as a right hook…or Huricane Katrina…or a series of tsunamis on December 26, 2004…all these things clearly illustrate the point that receiving doesn’t necessarilly imply a decision to receive it. Some things are simply beyond our ability to avoid.

God’s grace is impossible to avoid. The only choice being made is to reject it. Therefore, ironically, those who reject it end up being destroyed by the very means of grace by which God intended to save them.

But if you receive it, then this is exactly what God intended in the first place. In other words, if you receive it, this means the Spirit is already alive in you and allowing you to accept it. If the Spirit were not alive in you, you would not be able to beleive in the first place. Period.

God’s Spirit is going to ultimately move us to accomplish his will regardless of whether we’ve received or rejected his gifts of grace.

If we are saved, we give the glory to God.
If we are damned, then it is our own damn fault-- not Gods’.

Have you ever noticed that Peter uses the waters of the great deluge – emphasizing that only eight in all were saved through this water – when he makes the contrast between the great deluge and our baptism?

While it is true to say that they were saved from the these waters via Noah’s ark, it is also true to say that they were saved from the evils of the ancient world by the flood waters which destroyed the evils around them too.

Baptism destroys the spiritual evil in our souls in the same way that the great deluge destroyed the physical evils of the ancient world. And these waters of the great deluge symbolize the baptism that now saves you also. This isn’t the removal of dirt from the body. It is the response of a good conscience toward God. In fact, the waters save you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ-- our Lord and Saviour whose death destroyed death.

 

[simbagizmo]

Yes. And I’ve never denied that God gave them a portion of his faith to manifest in them. This faith belongs to them in the sense that Christ has given this faith to them. In other words, it is theirs in the sense that Christ gave it to them. It is a free gift.

If this Faith in Luke 8:25 was given to them by Jesus, why did Jesus ask “Where is your Faith”?

Luk 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marveled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

In this Faith in Luke 7:9, was also given to the centurion by Jesus, why was Jesus amazed at how great his Faith was?

Mar 4:40 And He said to them, “Why are you afraid? Do you still have no faith?”

If all faith is given by Jesus, why does he ask, “Do you still have no faith?”

Luk 22:31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
Luk 22:32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

If this faith is Jesus’s faith, why would Jesus pray that his faith will not fail?

If you permit me to offer a thought to you. Scripture teaches two types of Faith.

1. Faith that is a belief in Jesus
   This is the faith talked about in the passages above. This would be the saving faith the Grace comes through and we are spiritually reborn. The decision of faith made by people who are called to believe. A person can decide to reject this faith like the like the rich man in Matthew 19:20-21.
2. Faith that is a reliance on Jesus
   This is the gift of Faith that grows during our walk with God, given to us by the Holy Spirit. This Faith causes us to not just believe, but rely on Jesus and act on his Word.

This does not contradict Paul, when he stated “one Faith”. This faith is the belief in and reliance on Jesus Christ.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Do you believe in free will to choose Faith or do you believe God forces salvation on the elect?

Neither.

I believe that God believes on our behalf when he lives within us by the Holy Spirit.

God allows us the free-will to reject his grace-- so this is not irresistable grace.

But if our wills move according to God’s will, it is because we are being moved by the Holy Spirit to do so.

simbagizmo:

If the Faith I have is not mine by God’s, do you believe one can fall out of Faith?

By sinning.

God has given us the freedom to reject his grace. But God has not given us the freedom to accept his grace.

When we stop moving according to the principles of the adversary, God’s Spirit takes over, which is the default position that humanity was created in.

simbagizmo:

If so, how does this work if one cannot choose and Faith is God’s?

Look at Adam and Eve.

Were they created believing in God or not?

Adam and Eve were, by default, moving by the Holy Spirt until they choose to disobey God. But the default position they were created in was that of having faith in God, just as God had fore-ordained they should be-- and enabled them from the beginning.

When people sin, they are moving according to their own will.

When people do not sin, they are moving according to the motion of the Spirit which God enabled them to walk in from the very beginning.
1 John 2:24:

See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

And again…
Titus 1:1-3:

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior…

And again…
2 Thessalonians 2:13:

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

And again…
2 Timothy 1:8-10:

So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

And again…
Ephesians 2:8-11:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

As Paul says in Galatians 3:3…

Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

 

[simbagizmo]

Yes. And I’ve never denied that people can reject this motion of the Spirit. I’ve stated that from the beginning-- its the only decision they can make.

If one can make a decision to reject, one can also make a decision to accept, or, in other words, make the decision to not reject. Example; standing on a street corner, I can choose to cross the street, or choose to stand still. Either way I did make a choice.

No. This is no more of a decision to receive his gift than a boxer who decided to receive a good right hook resulting in a TKO…

Again, if I can choose to reject it, I can also choose to not reject it. Choosing not to reject is a choice to receive it.

Yes. But you’re asumming that received means that we’ve done something to earn it. It doesn’t. It doesn’t always mean this even in the secular world. And it definitely doesn’t mean this in a Scriptural sense.

No. I never said that. Because you receive a gift in no way assumes you deserve that gift. Sometimes someone can just give you something, no strings attached. If I accept it, I do not assume I deserve it. I accept it as an unmeritted gift.

God’s grace is impossible to avoid. The only choice being made is to reject it.

If I can choose to reject God’s Grace, then it is possible to avoid it.

Therefore, ironically, those who reject it end up being destroyed by the very means of grace by which God intended to save them.

Grace is undeserved favor. Our destruction is not undeserved nor is it a favor. We are saved by Grace through Faith, not destroyed by Grace. Jesus did not come to comdemn the world. We are already condemned. He came to save the world.

But if you receive it, then this is exactly what God intended in the first place. In other words, if you receive it, this means the Spirit is already alive in you and allowing you to accept it. If the Spirit were not alive in you, you would not be able to beleive in the first place. Period.

We are saved by Grace Through Faith. This statement indicates that I must first have Faith before I receive the Grace, since Grace is received through Faith. That grace is the Holy Spirit which comes in through my Faith.

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Please read the John verse above. Here we have people who actually believe but the Spirit was not in them, because the Spirit has yet to come down.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

If this Faith in Luke 8:25 was given to them by Jesus, why did Jesus ask “Where is your Faith”?

Because he’s asking, “Why didn’t you have faith in me?”

And since faith comes from the living presence of Jesus indwelling them, he’s asking, “Why didn’t you let me complete this work in you? Why didn’t you let me work in you and act according to my good purpose?”

This is just like how Philippians 2:13 says that it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

simbagizmo:

In this Faith in Luke 7:9, was also given to the centurion by Jesus, why was Jesus amazed at how great his Faith was?

Because he was a pagan who understood the nature of God’s living faith within us better than the Israelites did. The Israelites, even his own apsotles, were still thinking that they were doing something to ‘earn their salvation’. The centurian understood that God only has to say the word, and we will believe…

Look at the centurians words…

For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it."

The centurian understood the nature of God’s faith moving us better than the Israelites around him did-- which was a sign that the Lord was getting ready to send his grace out into the Gentile nations.

simbagizmo:

If all faith is given by Jesus, why does he ask, “Do you still have no faith?”

Because he’s asking them why they haven’t allowed his Spirit into their heart, just as Ezekiel 36:27 clearly states…

And I will **put my Spirit in you **and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

simbagizmo:

If this faith is Jesus’s faith, why would Jesus pray that his faith will not fail?

Because he knows full well that they have the choice to reject him-- and he’s asking them to not resist the motion of the Holy Spirit, just as St. Stephen cried out before his death…

You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute?

They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him.

But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

Consequentrly, we see an interesting thing here. When Stephen was standing up for Jesus on earth, Jesus was standing up for Stephen in heaven.

This is a good example of Matthew 6:10’s exhortation of God’s kingdom come, his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Stephen was standing up for Jesus because Jesus was standing up for Stephen.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

If one can make a decision to reject, one can also make a decision to accept, or, in other words, make the decision to not reject. Example; standing on a street corner, I can choose to cross the street, or choose to stand still. Either way I did make a choice.

But that’s not how God’s grace works. It is inevitable that God’s grace is going to impact you. You have no choice on whether God’s grace will reach or not. But you do have the free-will to resist the impact of God’s grace. If you do not resist, effectively doing nothing of your own will, then God’s grace is going to move you according to his will. You don’t have to do anything.

simbagizmo:

Again, if I can choose to reject it, I can also choose to not reject it. Choosing not to reject is a choice to receive it.

No. If you do not resist, effectively doing nothing of your own will, then God’s grace is going to move you according to his will. You don’t have to do anything. God is doing it through you by his Holy Spirit.

I don’t think I can make this any clearer.

simbagizmo:

No. I never said that. Because you receive a gift in no way assumes you deserve that gift. Sometimes someone can just give you something, no strings attached. If I accept it, I do not assume I deserve it. I accept it as an unmeritted gift.

But you have effectively said this.

You are still assuming that your free-will enables you to accept it. It doesn’t. People often receive things that are entirely outside their ability to avoid.

Similarly, God’s grace is going to reach you regardless of what you do. In other words, God is going to save you so long as you move by his Spirit, which is exactly what he has been doing since the beginning.

But as soon as you start to move by your own will outside the motion of the Holy Spirit, then you are in trouble.

simbagizmo:

If I can choose to reject God’s Grace, then it is possible to avoid it.

No. The impact of God’s grace is going to impact you regardless of what you do.

So, for example, if you are ill and are given medicine, this medicine will save you regardless of what you do. The medicine is making you get better-- not your will to take the medicine.

Taking the medicine is an example of God moving you by his Spirit to be saved. Refusing to take the medicine is an example of you resisting God’s Holy Spirit and injuring yourself in the process.

simbagizmo:

Grace is undeserved favor.

I never said it was deserved, did I?

You’re the one who’s saying that once we accept it it takes effect. I’m saying that our acceptance of it has nothing to do with it taking effect. Only our rejection of it causes it to not take effect.

simbagizmo:

Our destruction is not undeserved nor is it a favor. We are saved by Grace through Faith, not destroyed by Grace. Jesus did not come to comdemn the world. We are already condemned. He came to save the world.

Isaiah 63:10:

Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.

At this point I need to ask which denomination you belong too. It will give me a better understanding of the theological perspective you’re coming from.

simbagizmo:

We are saved by Grace Through Faith. This statement indicates that I must first have Faith before I receive the Grace, since Grace is received through Faith. That grace is the Holy Spirit which comes in through my Faith.

This statement indicates that you must do something in order be saved regardless of how you word it.

simbagizmo:

Please read the John verse above. Here we have people who actually believe but the Spirit was not in them, because the Spirit has yet to come down.

Since the Scriptures indicate that faith comes by the Holy Spirit, it is noted that these gifts of the Spirit most likely pertain to gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in different kinds of tongues, and the interpretation of tongues for example.

Other gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as the messages of wisdom, the messages of knowledge, that of faith were certainly present before the Day of Pentecost. And I haven’t even begun to scratch the surface of the other gifts of the Holy Spirit as understood within Catholicism, such as wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety and the fear of the Lord.

Regardless, the Holy Spirit has been active since the beginning.
Psalm 51:11:

Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

 

[simbagizmo]

Since the Scriptures indicate that faith comes by the Holy Spirit, it is noted that these gifts of the Spirit most likely pertain to gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in different kinds of tongues, and the interpretation of tongues for example.

Other gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as the messages of wisdom, the messages of knowledge, that of faith were certainly present before the Day of Pentecost. And I haven’t even begun to scratch the surface of the other gifts of the Holy Spirit as understood within Catholicism, such as wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety and the fear of the Lord.

Regardless, the Holy Spirit has been active since the beginning.

Let’s just concentrate on this Scripture passage that I posted earlier for a moment. I did not get a response on this from you on it, and it has some bearing on our discussion.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This passage is stating a couple of things.

1. There are people who choose to believe
2. After one believes they will receive the Holy Spirit
3. The Holy Spirit was not yet given to the believers

Following your interpretation, this cannot happen. You state that one must have already been given the Spirit in order to believe. Here it specifically states He has not yet been given.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Let’s just concentrate on this Scripture passage that I posted earlier for a moment.

But I have addressed it before, and in abundance to be precise. Please don’t think I’m trying to be argumentative here. I’m only stressing that salvation comes from God alone. There’s really no escaping this part regardless of how one’s arguments are phrased.

simbagizmo:

I did not get a response on this from you on it, and it has some bearing on our discussion.

I’ve got the stomache flu today and not feeling very good. My youngest boy and wife had it over the weekend. My oldest boy had it yesterday. And it’s caught up with me this morning-- so I’ll try to be short and sweet before I throw up again.

sigh I know this is going to be long…I’ll just place a bucket by the computer here…

simbagizmo:

This passage is stating a couple of things.

1. There are people who choose to believe

Yes. And there are passages which state that salvation does not come from one’s ability to choose God-- God chooses them from the beginning.
John 1:13:

…children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

There are also passages which state that one’s faith is a gift that comes from the Holy Spirit too-- so it is also infered that those who chose to believe (as your quoted passage indicates) are being moved by the Holy Spirit to do so.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

simbagizmo:

1. After one believes they will receive the Holy Spirit.

Then why does the Spirit move Balaam to prophesy of the coming of the Lord?

Now when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he did not resort to sorcery as at other times, but turned his face toward the desert. When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him and he uttered his oracle:

The oracle of Balaam son of Beor,
the oracle of one whose eye sees clearly,
the oracle of one who hears the words of God,
who sees a vision from the Almighty,
who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened…

Balaam did not have faith in God even though he knew that God existed-- note the dichotomy of the intellectual assertion of God’s existence vs. the trusting in the Lord kind of faith which God infuses into those who believe.

Balaam was moved by Spirit of the Lord to prophesy even though he lacked the true faith that was given by the Holy Spirit to believe in God.

Here’s but a few of the examples of God’s Spirit moving Balaam by his Spirit, quite literally putting his words into Balaam’s mouth…
Numbers 23:5:

The LORD put a message in Balaam’s mouth and said, “Go back to Balak and give him this message.”

Numbers 23:16:

The LORD met with Balaam and put a message in his mouth and said, “Go back to Balak and give him this message.”

Balaams’ third oracle has already been noted above with reference to Numbers 24:2…

When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him and he uttered his oracle.

Balaam’s fourth oracle comes after this third…

Balaam answered Balak, "Did I not tell the messengers you sent me, 'Even if Balak gave me his palace filled with silver and gold, I could not do anything of my own accord, good or bad, to go beyond the command of the LORD-- and I must say only what the LORD says’?

…and this fourth oracle summarizes exactly what it means to be moved by God to do something.

This brings us to his final oracles where God explains (through Balaam, a pagan sorceror who hurls evil curses like an assassin of the spiritual world) exactly what will happen to those who rebel against God’s Spirit.

Balaam is a perfect illustration of the devil’s intellectual assertion of God’s existance by the way.

You don’t find any irony in Balaam being moved by the Spirit to prophesy even though he did not believe in God by the same Spirit?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

simbagizmo:

1. The Holy Spirit was not yet given to the believers.

Which gift of the Spirit was not given yet?

For example, God breathes the Holy Spirit on his apostles in John 20:21-23…

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

This gift of the Holy Spirit was linked with the ability of his Church to forgive sins. And yet, later on, we read in Acts 1:8…

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

But didn’t Jesus already give them the Holy Spirit back in John 20:21-23?

This gift of the Holy Spirit seems to be refering to the gift of speaking in toungues, the birthday of the Church is akin to the Tower of Babel being inverted in preparation for the Gospel to be transmitted through to all the nations of the world.

Jesus already said back in Matthew 12:32 that anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Did Jesus give them the gift of the Holy Spirit back in Matthew 12:32 as well?

How can they speak against the Holy Spirit if they haven’t received the Holy Spirit already?

Luke 1:15 speaks of John the Baptist having been filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

John 7:39 says…

By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

What gift of the Spirit had not been given to the apostles at this time?

Actually, wasn’t there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout?

He was actually waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him too. In fact, it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

How can this be if the gift of the Spirit has not been given yet?

Actually, according to Mark 12:36, David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’

Actually, Peter himself testifies to the motion of the Spirit well before the birth of Christ’s Church when he said, “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas.”

And again, in Acts 4:25, we read…

You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David: " 'Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?"

Peter testified to the motion of the Holy Spirit through the words of the prophets as such…
2 Peter 1:21:

For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

And as Acts 5:32 says, we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

So it clear that the Holy Spirit has been at work in humanity for a long time, well before Jesus’ glorius resurrection. In fact, when Jesus breathed upon his apostles here…
John 20:21-23:

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

…we see that this passage actually draws its analogy of God breathing his Spirit into Adam long, long ago, right from the very beginning…
Genesis 2:7:

…the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

As Job 32:8 clearly states, it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding. And again, in Job 33:4, we read that the Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

And gain, in Psalm 51:10 we read, “Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.”

This all comes back to Ephesians 2:10…

For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Clearly, it is God doing the work in us according to his Spirit which gives us life, understanding, faith, hope and love. And anyone who teaches that we have to choose God in order to be saved is teaching a heresy. In fact, heresy means to choose in case anyone hasn’t noticed this yet.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

And, having said that, I’m taking my bucket and going to bed.