For Jewish people only

[meltzerboy]

why is there this resurgence?I don’t want to sound cruel but don’t you think 2000yrs.is maybe a bit over patient?Im sure that Jews werre asked this same question @500,1000,and 1500yrs ago.I mean it kind of seems that God would give you some clues as to when you can expect something to happen.Yes,christians do have some simularities to the Jews.

I must ask you: a bit over-patient for what? The coming of the Messiah? This was never the main reason for being Jewish: the ancient Sadducees certainly didn’t pin their hopes on this and didn’t even believe in a resurrection of the dead. Or are you referring to an end to the suffering of the Jewish people (and all people), often associated with the Messianic Age? This too is not the raison d’etre of Judaism. The Jewish religion is a way of life from birth to death, a means of engaging in life in the moment according to the moral principles instituted by G-d, showing our love for our fellow humans and all of G-d’s creatures through our behavior toward them, and thereby reflecting our love of G-d. While some Orthodox Jews believe the Messiah is near and may arrive at any moment, that is not the central focus of their lives, which is the devotion toward G-d and His creation. Jews believe the creation itself is partially incomplete and it is up to mankind to complete it by means of their good works.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

The ancient Romans could not fathom how, if the God of the Jews was the one almighty God, the Jews had fallen under Rome’s power.

The Roman Empire has long since crumbled to dust. All the other nations and peoples of the Roman empire are no more. Only the Jews remain. It is seemingly impossible that they of all the world’s ancient peoples have survived, but they have. Even more remarkable, that they have survived despite the animosity against them, through centuries of adversity aimed to make them victims for their stubborn insistence to continue to remain being Jews.

The Jews had only themselves and their eternal covenant with God. The Jews survived.

They are no longer a vassal state but have regained sovereignty over their homeland. This too is a seeming impossibility. They regained their independence a mere three years after one third of the Jewish people were destroyed in the genocide of the Shoah. They regained their independence despite being immediately attacked by the armies of five nations. In both cases the world stood by and watched. When Hitler rose to power the world shut their borders to the Jews leaving the Jews to his murderous wrath. During World war II not one country could spare one bomb on even one mission to put Auschwitz out of commission for even a single day. When the Jewish state was attacked not one country sent one soldier to help the survivors of Auschwitz. Instead they imposed arms embargos to prevent the Jews from defending themselves.

The Jews had only themselves and their eternal covenant with God.The Jewish nation was not extinguished forever in the ashes of the Shoah, the Jews won their war of re independence.

That the Jewish state survives today is also a seeming impossibility. It sits on a mere one per cent of the land of the middle east, in an area roughly the size of the state of New Jersey, surrounded by a billion enemies. It could not possibly survive but it does. Despite its precarious position it is seemingly so strong as to be deemed an “aggressor” by those who wish it ill.

The Jews make up a mere one quarter of one per cent of the world’s population. The have only been allowed to integrate within general western society in the last two hundred years. So small in numbers it is a seeming impossibility that Jews should be even seen or felt. However, despite their minuscule numbers their contributions to society are so vast that their enemies accuse them of “controlling the world”.

The ancient Romans could not fathom the God of the Jews. Today, their descendants cannot look at the Jew and not believe in God.

Eh, this is a big stretch.

The Romans didn’t have an issue with Judaism because they thought the Jewish god was weak or inferior. Indeed, the Romans had no problem worshiping and adapting the gods from other cultures. The issue they did have with Judaism, and later Christianity, was that they refused to acknowledge the emperor was a divinity. No one would have cared about Judaism if it accepted this caveat. But they didn’t, and thus they were looked as possible subversives. Ironically, Jewish groups didn’t mind encouraging this belief after Judaism became tolerated and Christianity became a target.

The Romans still exist. The empire might be gone, but their decendants live on. Italy is a rich, prosperous nation, blessed by God, center of art and Western civilization. These Romans did a lot in protecting Jews during the Holocaust. Many of these Romans also supported the establishment of the State of Israel.

Yes Jews have been persecuted. But then again so have the Armenians. They’ve seemed to have lasted a remarkably long period of time too.

 

[Hail_Linus]

There has been a resurgence of interest in Orthodox Judaism among young Jews in the past twenty years. So it is not necessarily the case that orthodoxy is diminishing. In fact, Reform Judaism is the branch of Judaism that has currently been dwindling in numbers. Apart from this, however, the ability to be patient with G-d is a matter of faith. We humans are, by nature, impatient, rather self-centered creatures, wanting immediate, instant gratification wherever we may be able to obtain it. We are too often almost demanding of G-d to change our lives according to our own will and time table rather than His. We seem to need miracles on a grand scale in order to believe, even though our own prophets of yore, including Moses, warned us not to believe on the basis of miracles alone. And even when these miracles were provided to us in ancient times, we still often refused to continue to believe, asking instead of G-d: “What have You done for me lately?” G-d has another plan for us. He wants us to be ready to receive Him, and therefore has given us free will–including our evil inclination as well as our better potential–and continues to test that free will so that we may learn to rise above our human imperfections. It is difficult to be a Jew, as it is to be a Christian. It is not a self-serving religion; it is not a natural, humanistic religion; it is not designed so that we may always feel happy and satisfied. And yet, if one looks closely, “small” miracles do present themselves regularly in our lives: the miracle of inner peace of mind, so much deeper than fleeting happiness and gratification; the miracle of selfless giving to others, so much more gratifying than selfish taking; the miracle of a loving and personal relationship with G-d, so much more joyful and trustworthy than our unstable relationships with the material possessions of this world.

Beautiful paragraph Meltzerboy. I especially liked this part " It is difficult to be a Jew, as it is to be a Christian. It is not a self-serving religion; it is not a natural, humanistic religion; it is not designed so that we may always feel happy and satisfied." I always try to stress this point to others when we are compared to Buddhists and Hindus, etc.

I am also glad to know that orthodoxy is on the rise.

 

[Hail_Linus]

I must ask you: a bit over-patient for what? The coming of the Messiah? This was never the main reason for being Jewish: the ancient Sadducees certainly didn’t pin their hopes on this and didn’t even believe in a resurrection of the dead. Or are you referring to an end to the suffering of the Jewish people (and all people), often associated with the Messianic Age? This too is not the raison d’etre of Judaism. The Jewish religion is a way of life from birth to death, a means of engaging in life in the moment according to the moral principles instituted by G-d, showing our love for our fellow humans and all of G-d’s creatures through our behavior toward them, and thereby reflecting our love of G-d. While some Orthodox Jews believe the Messiah is near and may arrive at any moment, that is not the central focus of their lives, which is the devotion toward G-d and His creation. Jews believe the creation itself is partially incomplete and it is up to mankind to complete it by means of their good works.

I don’t know what Valentino is referring to. However, wasn’t there a conflict between Orthodox Jews and Reform Jews over the establishment of Israel? One of my favorite movies is “The Chosen”. The Orthodox in the movie were very upset about the establishment of Israel. That it was showing a lack of patience and not waiting for God to do it.

 

[EzraJacob]

Yes Jews have been persecuted. But then again so have the Armenians. They’ve seemed to have lasted a remarkably long period of time too.

As well as the Kurds. Who are the modern day version of Jews. Who have no homeland and subjected to persecution and oppression.

 

[meltzerboy]

I don’t know what Valentino is referring to. However, wasn’t there a conflict between Orthodox Jews and Reform Jews over the establishment of Israel? One of my favorite movies is “The Chosen”. The Orthodox in the movie were very upset about the establishment of Israel. That it was showing a lack of patience and not waiting for God to do it.

Yes, as mentioned in my previous post, some Orthodox Jews (mainly Satmar and Litvish) point to Biblical prophecy and claim that Israel is not meant to be resurrected by Man, but by G-d. They have little sympathy for non-religious, secular Zionists, who took it on themselves to establish the Jewish State prematurely. However, as also previously noted, other Orthodox Jews (Traditional, Modern, and Chabad) do not oppose the founding of modern Israel. Thus, as always, Jews are divided. Conservative and liberal Reform Jews have no qualms about the way Israel was established and many are supporters of Zionism. Here too there is disagreement, however. Some, though not all, liberal Jews regard Zionists as terrorists and insist that Israel is acting in an immoral manner by depriving Palestinians of their homeland. I hesitate to get into a discussion of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict: this major political issue is worthy of its own thread.

In the movie you refer to, “The Chosen,” the Orthodox father (played by Rod Steiger) was a member of the Satmar sect. I saw the film many years ago but still remember it quite well.

 

[Hail_Linus]

Eh, this is a big stretch.

The Romans didn’t have an issue with Judaism because they thought the Jewish god was weak or inferior. Indeed, the Romans had no problem worshiping and adapting the gods from other cultures. The issue they did have with Judaism, and later Christianity, was that they refused to acknowledge the emperor was a divinity. No one would have cared about Judaism if it accepted this caveat. But they didn’t, and thus they were looked as possible subversives. Ironically, Jewish groups didn’t mind encouraging this belief after Judaism became tolerated and Christianity became a target.

The Romans did not really have an issue with Judaism. The Jews invited the Romans to be their Protectors.

No body really considered the emperors to be divine. Jews and Christians were both disliked for not being synchrenistic. Unlike any other religion, they only worshiped their God. The Pagan religions worshiped each others gods. Jews were a legally sanctioned religion and so they were not persecuted. Christianity was an illegal religion and that is why they were persecuted. The destruction of the Temple was not persecution, it was retaliation for the revolt and successful attack on Roman troops.

The Romans still exist. The empire might be gone, but their decendants live on. Italy is a rich, prosperous nation, blessed by God, center of art and Western civilization. These Romans did a lot in protecting Jews during the Holocaust. Many of these Romans also supported the establishment of the State of Israel.

Yes Jews have been persecuted. But then again so have the Armenians. They’ve seemed to have lasted a remarkably long period of time too.

This is not really a good comparison. Nobody really knows if they are descendants of Roman Citizens. Not everyone in Rome was a citizen. Additionally, the language and all their Pagan religions are gone.

A better comparison would be the Celtics. Although their religion is dead and they are now Christian (except for a few nuts) they are still an identifiable group. Celtic groups from all over Europe still get together to this very day. However, even they do not compare to the Jews as an ethnic group. The Jews have maintained the Hebrew language and as much of the religion is possible. To me it is very impressive that at every Passover the youngest child still says “what makes this night different?” Jewish traditions like this have been going on for thousands of years.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

The Romans did not really have an issue with Judaism. The Jews invited the Romans to be their Protectors.

No body really considered the emperors to be divine. Jews and Christians were both disliked for not being synchrenistic. Unlike any other religion, they only worshiped their God. The Pagan religions worshiped each others gods. Jews were a legally sanctioned religion and so they were not persecuted. Christianity was an illegal religion and that is why they were persecuted. The destruction of the Temple was not persecution, it was retaliation for the revolt and successful attack on Roman troops.

Fair enough. I think this solidifies my point further, though.

This is not really a good comparison. Nobody really knows if they are descendants of Roman Citizens. Not everyone in Rome was a citizen. Additionally, the language and all their Pagan religions are gone.

I shall happily contest this. We do know who are the descendants of the ancient Romans, and geneticists have confirmed that they are the Italian people! The Romans themselves consistently referred “Italia” (which comprised all of modern Italy within its borders) as the homeland of the Romans, and for the first few hundred years, only Italians could possess Roman citizenship. It wasn’t until 212 that Roman citizenship was extended to all sujects of the Empire. And even then, Italy was specifically designated differently. The Emperor Justinian in Constantinople himself once said “Italy is not a province, but the mistress of the provinces.”

Genetically the Italians have remained uniform and consistent since the time of the Romans. This is proven. We are one of the last genetic islands remaining in Europe. Its quite wonderful actually.

On language I shall contest you too. The Italian language is the obvious successor to Roman Latin. Latin was actually the official language of most Italian states long after the fall of the Roman Empire. Indeed, Italian developed later than most other major Romance languages precisely because Italians clung aggressively to Latin. Because it’s part of our heritage. Additionally, Italian is clearly the closest language to Latin, and given that it is a natural evolution, I suggest we kept the language.

In terms of religion - though Italy is not pagan, it is Christian, it is Catholic. The Catholic Church has dominated in Italy since Christianity came to Italy. It became an integral part of the Roman Empire. I don’t think, after a while, it was any longer possible to separate Roman civilization from Christianity. So I do say Italy is the legitimate successor entity to the Romans.

A better comparison would be the Celtics. Although their religion is dead and they are now Christian (except for a few nuts) they are still an identifiable group. Celtic groups from all over Europe still get together to this very day. However, even they do not compare to the Jews as an ethnic group. The Jews have maintained the Hebrew language and as much of the religion is possible. To me it is very impressive that at every Passover the youngest child still says “what makes this night different?” Jewish traditions like this have been going on for thousands of years.

I disagree. No Celtic nation today a grasp of their language. Most have been swallowed up in other cultures. Wales, Scotland, and Ireland have all been Anglicized. Yes, attempts lately have been made to revitalize the original tongues, but by and large they have gone extinct. Italian is at least a natural evolution of Latin.

With the Jews - Hebrew is a recent restoration for Jews. The Hebrew language was long a dead language, used only to study Torah texts and Hebrew traditions. Yiddish supplanted Hebrew in many areas of Europe. Israel actually had to conduct a major revitalization campaign to make Hebrew a live language again.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_Hebrew_language

I hope I didn’t come out as overly aggressive. I am just enthusiastic, because I love this stuff .

Best regards and God bless

 

[valentino]

I must ask you: a bit over-patient for what? The coming of the Messiah? This was never the main reason for being Jewish: the ancient Sadducees certainly didn’t pin their hopes on this and didn’t even believe in a resurrection of the dead. Or are you referring to an end to the suffering of the Jewish people (and all people), often associated with the Messianic Age? This too is not the raison d’etre of Judaism. The Jewish religion is a way of life from birth to death, a means of engaging in life in the moment according to the moral principles instituted by G-d, showing our love for our fellow humans and all of G-d’s creatures through our behavior toward them, and thereby reflecting our love of G-d. While some Orthodox Jews believe the Messiah is near and may arrive at any moment, that is not the central focus of their lives, which is the devotion toward G-d and His creation. Jews believe the creation itself is partially incomplete and it is up to mankind to complete it by means of their good works.

While the Sadducees didn’t believe in the resurrection their were a great many of Jews who were looking forward to a coming Messiah.Of course there were differences of what kind of Messiah He would be.Not all the Jews were waiting for Moses to free them from slavery either.No I am referring to those people who are still waiting for the Messiah.the small remnant of those who didn’t belileve Jesus was the predicted Messiah.Yes, some Jews do still believe in those lofty principles of love for their fellowman and refllecting God’s love.I still believe that their aren’t so many righteous God loving God fearing people loveing Jews as you try to portrait or believe that their are.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

It is my experience, for many years, with many Jewish friends, neighbors and co-workers, that a great many Jewish people are, in practical terms, agnostic and their “Jewishness” is mainly a cultural thing. I have many of them tell me that they don’t even believe in the existence of God, that they don’t believe in the biblical story of Moses, that they don’t believe in the Exodus from Egypt or the parting of the waters of the Reed/Red Sea, that they don’t believe in the wandering of the Israelites in the desert for 40 years. All this is very shocking to me, because in denying all these things, these particular Jewish people are denying, in effect, the Covenants God made with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I just don’t understand that.
But that is not all Jews, not by any means.
Here in my condo, we used to have a lot of Jewish neighbors. Many of these people went to synagogue regularly, or To Temple, as some of them put it.
One of our dearest neighbors, now deceased, God love and rest her dear soul,
was a survivor of the Nazi concentration camps. She was one of the sweetest human beings you could ever have the honor of meeting. Her name was Frieda Steinberg.
During Nazi rule, her entire family – parents, siblings, uncles, aunts, all cousins, all of her family - was murderously wiped out. She was experimented on and her female organs were ruined so that she could never have children of her own. She eventually moved to America, married, had an adopted daughter. This dear woman, in her late 70s when I met her, used to WALK TO SYNAGOGUE every sabbath. She had a strong faith in, and love for, the God of Israel, in spite of what God allowed to happen to her and to the Jewish people in general in Europe during the Hitler years. I hope Jesus threw his arms around her and kissed her tenderly when she approached the Pearly Gates. I don’t see how he could do otherwise.
Other Jewish friends of mine are into Chabad and Kabbalah, mysticism and “the sparks.”
Judaism today is very diverse, even among observant Jews.
Jaypeeto4

 

[meltzerboy]

While the Sadducees didn’t believe in the resurrection their were a great many of Jews who were looking forward to a coming Messiah.Of course there were differences of what kind of Messiah He would be.Not all the Jews were waiting for Moses to free them from slavery either.No I am referring to those people who are still waiting for the Messiah.the small remnant of those who didn’t belileve Jesus was the predicted Messiah.Yes, some Jews do still believe in those lofty principles of love for their fellowman and refllecting God’s love.I still believe that their aren’t so many righteous God loving God fearing people loveing Jews as you try to portrait or believe that their are.

How do you define G-d-loving, G-d-fearing, people-loving Jews? Only in terms of orthodoxy, or can a Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, or Humanistic Jew fit the criteria? I hope so, since, as you know, we are all imperfect and sinners, as well as loving, kind, and compassionate, whether we be Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist. Jews are not special in this regard, and should not be held to a higher standard, or a lower one.

 

[valentino]

How do you define G-d-loving, G-d-fearing, people-loving Jews? Only in terms of orthodoxy, or can a Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, or Humanistic Jew fit the criteria? I hope so, since, as you know, we are all imperfect and sinners, as well as loving, kind, and compassionate, whether we be Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist. Jews are not special in this regard, and should not be held to a higher standard, or a lower one.

I don’t want to disappoint you and I don’t know if I can answer the question but I don’t know if any Jew can be all those things.However Jesus demands it of Catholics.Some Catholic Jews im sure will be able to fit the criteria.God bless my fellow jews I love them all.

 

[meltzerboy]

I don’t want to disappoint you and I don’t know if I can answer the question but I don’t know if any Jew can be all those things.However Jesus demands it of Catholics.Some Catholic Jews im sure will be able to fit the criteria.God bless my fellow jews I love them all.

You are basically stating that only Catholics can love G-d and other people, and that no Jew can. Perhaps you also believe no Protestant or other Christian can. Did Jesus single out Catholics as the only people worthy of loving him? And yet you also state that you love your fellow Jews. I see a contradiction in this and find it not only disappointing but rather insulting to all those people who are not Catholics. Please accept my apologies if I have misinterpreted what you appear to be saying.

 

[valentino]

You are basically stating that only Catholics can love G-d and other people, and that no Jew can. Perhaps you also believe no Protestant or other Christian can. Did Jesus single out Catholics as the only people worthy of loving him? And yet you also state that you love your fellow Jews. I see a contradiction in this and find it not only disappointing but rather insulting to all those people who are not Catholics. Please accept my apologies if I have misinterpreted what you appear to be saying.

I believe that the Jews love their concept of God.That HE is all powerful,one and true.About protestants I don’t have an opinion.Jesus never the word Catholic of course but you say worthy of Him.That’s strange verbiage.No one is worthy of Him.I love all people as creatures(humans)made by God and we are all pretty much the same.We view things differently,we have petty disagreements and predujucies but we are all closely related.We are all much more alike than we are different.I think we are all trying to find truth and understand this might God that made us.

 

[ibneahmad]

From Abraham to David God has always led the Jews through wars and finally reach the promised land of Israel.

I think the ONE-Creator God does not allow any aggressive wars. Relgion is not concerned with occupation of lands or cities; it is concerned with opening hearts and souls to reality and truth.

 

[Hail_Linus]

I think the ONE-Creator God does not allow any aggressive wars. Relgion is not concerned with occupation of lands or cities; it is concerned with opening hearts and souls to reality and truth.

Then why are Muslims demanding a piece of Israel?

 

[meltzerboy]

I think the ONE-Creator God does not allow any aggressive wars. Relgion is not concerned with occupation of lands or cities; it is concerned with opening hearts and souls to reality and truth.

Of course, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a contentious political and moral issue. Some Jews, even Israelis, would agree with what you say regarding the occupation. But let’s try not to sidetrack the OP’s topic by starting a debate on this. If you wish to discuss the conflict, it might be better to start a new thread, which, I have no doubt, will shortly degenerate into a name-calling contest. And, by the way, welcome to CAF!

 

[ibneahmad]

Then why are Muslims demanding a piece of Israel?

As per OP Abraham was promised for the promised land of Israel. Israel or Jacob was from the off-spring of Abraham not before Abraham; so the contention is wrong.

It may be easy to understand my point if one reflects on the following:

1. Abraham did not wage a war to occupy any lands that he was promised.
2. Similarly Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) did not simply wage any wars to occupy lands.
3. David and Jesus did not wage any wars to occupy lands.

I think therefore it is a right line of thinking that Abraham was not promised any lands to wage wars for but for the Kingdom of God which lies in the hearts and souls of the people.

There is no religious right to any lands to wage wars about; the right of inhabiting a region or land comes from the secular rights not from the religious ones…

 

[valentino]

I think the ONE-Creator God does not allow any aggressive wars. Relgion is not concerned with occupation of lands or cities; it is concerned with opening hearts and souls to reality and truth.

but there are agressive wars.

 

[EzraJacob]

I think the ONE-Creator God does not allow any aggressive wars. Relgion is not concerned with occupation of lands or cities; it is concerned with opening hearts and souls to reality and truth.

Does that include thous wars Mohammed led? Means he was wrong then.