For Orthodox Catholics Only

[Teresa9]

Dear friends

I have read all of the posts in this thread and after much thought and prayer I thought this…

This thread would be a healthier thread if it explored the orthodox doctrine of the church and did this in such a way that did not attack other movements within the church. I am saying this because not all Charismatics Catholics are abusive of church doctrine and therefore as such it would be unfair to slight the whole of the movement for those that do adhere to church doctrine, as in there are some who are Orthodox Catholics and committ abuses within the church, either liturgical or otherwise, therefore it would be more prudent to remain in a positive tone and discuss and post items that are orthodox without leaning towards commenting on other bodies within the church.

Slinging mud is not somethign personally I wish to do, obviously if there is an abuse maybe that should come under another thread…‘abuses within the church’…however personally I do not think this is the thread to explore this in. Maybe I have misread the intent of this thread, but I thought it was a thread to explore Orthodox Catholicism.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you all

Teresa

 

[Dunmoose]

I was speaking, for example, of your excerpt from St. Alphonus in #61. I should have been mose specific. That font size is horrid!

 

[Dunmoose]

I think the idea is a good one, too. It is in need of further fleshing out. Something like this is likely already going on. I am fairly competant when it comes to designing web pages and have my own web site. But, exploring orthodox Catholic doctrine can be done better here or onother established venues.

 

[1_Maria]

Teresa9:

Dear friends

I have read all of the posts in this thread and after much thought and prayer I thought this…

This thread would be a healthier thread if it explored the orthodox doctrine of the church and did this in such a way that did not attack other movements within the church. I am saying this because not all Charismatics Catholics are abusive of church doctrine and therefore as such it would be unfair to slight the whole of the movement for those that do adhere to church doctrine, as in there are some who are Orthodox Catholics and committ abuses within the church, either liturgical or otherwise, therefore it would be more prudent to remain in a positive tone and discuss and post items that are orthodox without leaning towards commenting on other bodies within the church.

Slinging mud is not somethign personally I wish to do, obviously if there is an abuse maybe that should come under another thread…‘abuses within the church’…however personally I do not think this is the thread to explore this in. Maybe I have misread the intent of this thread, but I thought it was a thread to explore Orthodox Catholicism.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you all

Teresa

Theresa, this is so good. Thank you. These are my sentiments exactly.

Maria

 

[beng]

I posted this on the USCCB thread, but here it is again:

The nation’s Roman Catholic bishops voted Wednesday to join a new alliance that would be the broadest Christian group ever formed in the United States, linking American evangelicals and Catholics in an ecumenical organization for the first time.

What horror.

Even the Protestants, who are not part of the body of Christ, have more sense than we are:

*The Catholic Church has ongoing ecumenical dialogues with many denominations. However, some evangelical and Pentecostal churches have resisted participating. In the floor debate Wednesday, New York Cardinal Edward Egan noted those churches were worried that such talks risked “watering down their faith.”

In fact, the evangelical Southern Baptist Convention, which has more than 16 million members and is the largest Protestant denomination in the country, has so far not agreed to fully join Christian Churches Together. *

 

[beng]

Got it from the Schismatic NovusOrdoWatch, but this isn’t made up:

“I saw many pastors cherishing dangerous ideas against the Church. . . . They built a large, singular, extravagant church which was to embrace all creeds with equal rights: Evangelicals, Catholics, and all denominations, a true communion of the unholy with one shepherd and one flock. There was to be a Pope, a salaried Pope, without possessions. All was made ready, many things finished; but, in place of an altar, were only abomination and desolation. Such was the new church to be, and it was for it that he had set fire to the old one; but God designed otherwise.”
–from Life and Revelations of Anne Catherine Emmerich, Vol. 2, pp. 352-353

 

[Les_Richardson]

tru_dvotion:

Dear Katherine,

I respectfully disagree. The Eucharist is our greatest treasure on Earth, what appeases God’s wrath over this sinful world of ours, the source of grace in the Church and for its individual members. The Eucharist IS the Mass, the Eucharist IS what makes us Catholic. The Eucharist for the Church is like the air for creatures. No Catholic should be ignorant of what the Eucharist is. We should be able to answer that gallop poll in an instant awaken from our sleep. Anything less is a great scandal and a great offense to God and to the faith we profess. The Archbishop should be applauded for bringing this sad reality of gross negligence and ignorance out into the open. God bless.

A gallup poll can be useful as a snapshot, just like in an election. It kind of gives rough, general perameters but doesn’t really say anything about the reasons behind the results. That would bear investigating. I presume that is what the ArchBishop has in mind. By itself, the poll is interesting, sad, but only a start point.

Having said that, I agree Tru, that the Eucharist is the heart and centre of the Catholic life of Faith. That is why I think that the Holy Father is truly operating in the Holy Spirit. He has a genius for moving the Church ahead where it needs to go. In declaring the year of the Rosary he helped to centre the Church back on tried and true devotion, as well as invoking the aid of the Blessed Mother of our Lord when we so sorely need it. It has had the effect, I believe, of bringing a measure of unity in focus of piety. But JPII also knows that catechesis has been weak or non-existent in places and periods of time.

This year of the Eucharist, it seems to me, is his way of bringing the focus of the entire Church to the sacrifice of the mass, the Real Presence of Christ, and more or less obligates the clergy to do the basic catechesis required for them to make sense of this for all the faithful. That particular Gallup Poll might change if taken again at the end of this year. If he had sent an exhortation, or an encyclical on the Eucharist it might have been passed over by those who most need to hear it. This way, it is very hard to ignore.

Our Pope is a wise man, a Godly man, and sometimes when I see him it appears, perhaps because of his infirmity, that he is carrying the entire Church on his back. Whenever I think of him I pray for him, because in a sense he really is. I pray that God will give him the strength to do what God has for him to do, for however long it takes.

 

[gnome]

Les Richardson:

Teresa,
It is enough to make a person cry. I have thought on occasion that it might be an idea to have an internet prayer group, informal, yet connected world-wide, with the express purpose of asking, pleading, imploring our Lord to raise up orthodox leaders; priests, bishops, cardinals, etc. that will take on the forces of heresy, new age, liberalism, and the mentality of experience over knowledge that seems to permeate the CCR and ALPHA. And also to raise up catechists to teach the orthodox Catholic faith.

Everyone would commit to a certain amount of time in prayer, wherever, home, work, the church. If there were enough people, the times themselves could be “signed up for” so that worldwide conceivably every hour of the day would be covered, say in half hour alotments.

Can you imagine the power of that? If there were enough involved it could be 24/7/365. Particularly if we were to enlist the aid of St. John the Evangelist, St. Peter our first Pope, St. Paul the teacher, preacher and author of so much of our New Testament, and of course Our Lady, mother of our Lord. Obviously, the list of saints we could ask for help goes vastly beyond that, as well as the angels.

I’m sure most of us do this anyway, but combined and focussed…

Practically, we would need some way of web-hosting and some kind of bulletin board set-up. Private e-mail, piggy-back CA?

Any thoughts? This has been percolating in my mind for some time now. Downsides? As far as the technical side, I can use a computer, but that’s about it.

Maybe this is already happening and somebody knows about it.

Les & All,
I have done web programming stuff so if your idea gets enough support, I think I can help w/ the technical side.
Thanks for info on Alpha.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Teresa9:

Dear friends

I have read all of the posts in this thread and after much thought and prayer I thought this…

This thread would be a healthier thread if it explored the orthodox doctrine of the church and did this in such a way that did not attack other movements within the church. I am saying this because not all Charismatics Catholics are abusive of church doctrine and therefore as such it would be unfair to slight the whole of the movement for those that do adhere to church doctrine, as in there are some who are Orthodox Catholics and committ abuses within the church, either liturgical or otherwise, therefore it would be more prudent to remain in a positive tone and discuss and post items that are orthodox without leaning towards commenting on other bodies within the church.

Slinging mud is not somethign personally I wish to do, obviously if there is an abuse maybe that should come under another thread…‘abuses within the church’…however personally I do not think this is the thread to explore this in. Maybe I have misread the intent of this thread, but I thought it was a thread to explore Orthodox Catholicism.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you all

Teresa

You are right. The only caveat I would toss in here is that the entire idea of forums, particularly those that focus on apologetics, presume any proposition has an opponent. Even the term Orthodox has the connotation, at least on a public forum, of being orthodox as opposed to non-orthodox, whatever that may be, and you know the range is broad. In a way it cannot help being at least partly defined by what it is not.

Personally, I think there are levels of seriousness with respect to those things that we might agree here are not orthodox. Some are in the realm of what we might consider nit-picking, others are errors of ignorance, and while irritating, probably don’t effect the salvation of the poor souls that adhere to them. Who knows, I may fall into that category myself with respect to some or even many areas of the Faith. I would hope that I have the grace to receive correction.

But there are areas that are definitely dangerous, sometimes not necessarily on their face, but based on their underlying ethos, on their influence within the whole Church, on their root theology, that in some cases is not only not orthodox but of a source that is not Christian by any measure. The greatest difficulty is discussing these things, being aware of the danger, yet knowing that if the truth were told in all its bare ugliness and horror, there would be such a negative response of invective that the truth would be buried. So sometimes its a matter of degree. And it is hard to hold back.

And as you know, (I read your outrage thread) some people get personal and drag you in.

That said, it would be nice to have an oasis away from that.

 

[Les_Richardson]

beng:

I posted this on the USCCB thread, but here it is again:

The nation’s Roman Catholic bishops voted Wednesday to join a new alliance that would be the broadest Christian group ever formed in the United States, linking American evangelicals and Catholics in an ecumenical organization for the first time.

What horror.

Even the Protestants, who are not part of the body of Christ, have more sense than we are:

The Catholic Church has ongoing ecumenical dialogues with many denominations. However, some evangelical and Pentecostal churches have resisted participating. In the floor debate Wednesday, New York Cardinal Edward Egan noted those churches were worried that such talks risked “watering down their faith.”

*In fact, the evangelical Southern Baptist Convention, which has more than 16 million members and is the largest Protestant denomination in the country, has so far not agreed to fully join Christian Churches Together. *

I understand your feeling, and as a convert from an Evangelical Baptist upbringing I am somewhat uneasy as well. However, I would say this, you can’t convert them if you are not talking to them.

I hope all the Bishops read and re-read Unitatis Redintegratio from Vatican II. I have. It seems to me that it is unequivocal, we will not compromise our Faith that comes from Jesus Christ Himself for the sake of Unity, however much we desire it.

.*11. The way and method in which the Catholic faith is expressed should never become an obstacle to dialogue with our brethren. It is, of course, essential that the doctrine should be clearly presented in its entirety. **Nothing is so foreign to the spirit of ecumenism as a false irenicism, in which the purity of Catholic doctrine suffers loss and its genuine and certain meaning is clouded. ***

At the same time, the Catholic faith must be explained more profoundly and precisely, in such a way and in such terms as our separated brethren can also really understand.
-UR

 

[Les_Richardson]

Sorry all for such a flurry of posts. I’ve been reading material in my spare moments all day re: ALPHA, and right now I’m all cranked up, so to speak.

Not to worry, I’ll calm down.

 

[Teresa9]

Les Richardson:

You are right. The only caveat I would toss in here is that the entire idea of forums, particularly those that focus on apologetics, presume any proposition has an opponent. Even the term Orthodox has the connotation, at least on a public forum, of being orthodox as opposed to non-orthodox, whatever that may be, and you know the range is broad. In a way it cannot help being at least partly defined by what it is not.

Personally, I think there are levels of seriousness with respect to those things that we might agree here are not orthodox. Some are in the realm of what we might consider nit-picking, others are errors of ignorance, and while irritating, probably don’t effect the salvation of the poor souls that adhere to them. Who knows, I may fall into that category myself with respect to some or even many areas of the Faith. I would hope that I have the grace to receive correction.

But there are areas that are definitely dangerous, sometimes not necessarily on their face, but based on their underlying ethos, on their influence within the whole Church, on their root theology, that in some cases is not only not orthodox but of a source that is not Christian by any measure. The greatest difficulty is discussing these things, being aware of the danger, yet knowing that if the truth were told in all its bare ugliness and horror, there would be such a negative response of invective that the truth would be buried. So sometimes its a matter of degree. And it is hard to hold back.

And as you know, (I read your outrage thread) some people get personal and drag you in.

That said, it would be nice to have an oasis away from that.

Dear Les

You are wise. So now let’s explore Orthodox Catholcisim in the beauty it has. Thank you Les

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[mtr01]

For the American Catholics here, I thought I’d post another “hit” we took at the USCCB conference (My apologies to my non-American Catholic friends for “hijacking” this thread). If anyone wasn’t aware, Bishop Trautman of Erie was elected in an unprecedented fashion to head up the office on the Liturgy. I believe he held that post before as well. Anyhow, he is a MAJOR proponent of inclusive language and is very fond of liturgical innovations. With this news, I have very low hopes about seeing either the new ICEL translation of the Missal, or Redemptionis Sacramentum being implemented anytime soon

I heard Fr. Stravinskas on EWTN commenting that it was an example of the “old guard” circling their wagons against the new more conservative bishops. He also suggested that there might end up being a “showdown” between Trautman and Cardinal Arinze, and that the Vatican may overrule the USCCB if necessary and impose the new translation and/or Redemptionis Sacramentum. If it comes down to that, I can only hope the Vatican will justifiably flex its muscle. Lord, help us. Mary Immaculate, pray for us!

 

[mtr01]

No comments on the Liturgy?

 

[Les_Richardson]

mtr01:

No comments on the Liturgy?

To be truthful mtr01 I have been Catholic for about a year and a half and have only attended mass for about two years total. All I know is the Novus Ordo as it is done in our parish.

Having said that, our pastor does, I believe, take the mass seriously, in the sense that all I have ever noticed is reverence for our Lord, and the true significance of the Eucharist. The liturgy is perhaps fairly basic, right out of the missal, but it is done in a reverent way.

I’ve watched the mass on EWTN and I like the mixture of the Latin. Having looked up the Tridentine Mass on the internet and as nearly as I can compare, the EWTN mass is Novus Ordo but filled out where the flexibility exists to do so, as well as using the Latin version. Perhaps it is sentimentality, or romantic sensibility, or perhaps it is just plain more reverent language but I love the Latin, particularly when sung in Gregorian chant. That moves me in a way that English does not. It is difficult for me to explain, but I certainly understand those who want to see more use of Latin again. And after all, we are the Latin Rite Catholic Church are we not?

My two cents.

 

[mtr01]

Les Richardson:

To be truthful mtr01 I have been Catholic for about a year and a half and have only attended mass for about two years total. All I know is the Novus Ordo as it is done in our parish.

Having said that, our pastor does, I believe, take the mass seriously, in the sense that all I have ever noticed is reverence for our Lord, and the true significance of the Eucharist. The liturgy is perhaps fairly basic, right out of the missal, but it is done in a reverent way.

I’ve watched the mass on EWTN and I like the mixture of the Latin. Having looked up the Tridentine Mass on the internet and as nearly as I can compare, the EWTN mass is Novus Ordo but filled out where the flexibility exists to do so, as well as using the Latin version. Perhaps it is sentimentality, or romantic sensibility, or perhaps it is just plain more reverent language but I love the Latin, particularly when sung in Gregorian chant. That moves me in a way that English does not. It is difficult for me to explain, but I certainly understand those who want to see more use of Latin again. And after all, we are the Latin Rite Catholic Church are we not?

My two cents.

I agree with you, Les. Just FYI, Latin is still the official language of the “New Mass”. The ability to celebrate the Mass in English is by special permission from the Vatican (as well as all vernacular language). A priest can celebrate the new missal in Latin at any time and any place he so desires (having the appropriate missals would help though ). Oh, and by the way, yes…the Mass on EWTN is the “Novus Ordo”, or what is called the Missa Normativa (the normative Mass).

What I was specifically referring to in my question was the election of Bishop Trautman to head the USCCB office on the Liturgy. With a new and more accurate translation of the Latin missal to be completed in the near future, many people are suggesting that there might be resistance by Trautman to accept it (as he’s a major proponent of inclusive language). Some have even suggested that there might be an eventual “clash” between him and Cardinal Arinze.

I was just wondering what others thought about this possibility, and where they stood on the issue.