For our Protestant brethren--Mary worship

[Radical]

Would you consider this, from the LCMS website, as sufficient to describe proskuneo?

It is most certainly better than I could have come up with.

It is curious that the word “latria” is connected to worship here, but not “dulia”.

Jon

as indicated to Reuben above, I am not so much concerned with the labels as I am with the substances

 

[Reuben_J]

Hey Marsha, good to meet you, I am aware of that assertion, but our different perspectives see the reality of your actions playing out in two entirely different fashions. If I understand you correctly, you would believe that:

a) Mary can hear your prayers and perhaps know your thoughts and is capable of responding either by talking to you or influencing you in some other fashion. You also believe that she is also capable of taking action.

b) Mary is sinless and would always point you to Christ; and

c) therefore, if there is any negative aspect to one’s veneration of Mary, then that negative aspect would not have its source in what Mary was doing or in the veneration of her…

I, on the other hand, believe that:

1. Mary can’t hear your prayers and that one can not communicate with her at this time (I also don’t believe that she is sinless, but that doesn’t come into play as she is simply unavailable).
2. therefore, since you are not in fact communicating with her, she is not pointing you to Jesus, your attempts to petition and praise her are largely unproductive or counterproductive except to the extent that your mind is drawn to Christ in the process.

It is not that I am unaware of the Catholic belief that you referenced… But the situation is such that before we could hope to see eye to eye on how Mary would act, we would first need to see eye to eye on the matter of whether Mary continues to act.

May God bless you

Marsha will respond to this post but I just want to note our differences here. You were right. We differ here. With this acknowledgment, much of the discussion that arises from this thread should be laid to rest.

We believe Mary hears our prayers. I am not sure if she knows our thought but if she hears our prayers and as prayers are often said non-verbal, then she knows our thought if we communicate prayers through our thought. She is capable of responding to our prayer and taking action as well in a limited way; not as what God does but what she does.

There are many testimonies on how people have benefited spiritually through prayers that ask Mary as an intercessor.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

Actually, I don’t think that is my question. You should note that in my last post that I expressed my belief that it is in fact impossible to communicate with Mary at this time and that I don’t think that she is actively involved in anything at this time. As such, I would see the veneration of her as largely unproductive or even detrimental. I guess what I am really asking is: Should Protestants (based on the authority of scripture) accept the distinction made by Catholics between worship/latria and veneration/ dulia and hyperdulia?

I was responding to your immediate post but I admit that I did not go through your earlier posts. I am sorry about that. I note now that you are directing your question to Protestants.
My response was addressing your statement that we can go overboard with our veneration. My reply essentially was that veneration is allowed but not worship. Therefore the fact in your statement does not arise, since an act of worshipping is not allowed for Catholics.

Thanks for that…but then what would a Catholic see as NOT veneration? Can it be determined by an outsider, or is it merely a state of the heart? …or is there a clear difference in conduct/action etc.?

How can an outsider determine it? because, yes, mainly it is a state of the heart. Many a times, certain Catholics themselves are to be blamed for putting Mary at the same level with Jesus. We don’t deny that it happens among Catholics and it is wrong.
I think there is clear difference between worship and veneration and the Church is clear about this too.

I am OK with veneration in proper measure and style, but I don’t see a scriptural distinction being made betwen dulia and hyperdulia.

We are much closer than we realize we are.

The question then, is whether a proper distinction can be made between the hyperdulia (that Catholics advocate for Mary) and the worship prohibited by the angel of Revelation. There must be a difference of substance (and not just of terminology). Does the intent of the venerator determine the substance of the action? Does the object of the veneration determine the substance of the action? What are your thoughts?

What I can say is that when we start measuring things that cannot be measured we would be faced with stalemate at some points in time and then make poor decision. In other word, strict legalism does not apply here.

Yes, the intent determines whether it is veneration or worship. And what is substance? We bow, we kneel as much to anybody and to anything in the secular world, and we know pretty well we are not worshipping anyone. Words also are limited – I praise God, I praise Mary and I also praise Uncle John. But are they the same thing?

Again it is the state of the heart – I venerate Mary; I honor her and I love her but I do not worship here because she is not Jesus nor she is God. I believe God is wise enough to know the difference. In principle, it will be what’s in the heart will be demonstrated in action. Only, sometimes things can be difficult to differentiate and quantify in ways humans can see clearly.

This perhaps, leads to one of the points that I was trying make with Della. Since I don’t recognize Catholic tradition as being w/o error, I don’t necessarily accept (as valid) the distinction (made in that tradition) between hyperdulia and worship. It isn’t good enough for this protestant that it is called by a different name…it must be different in substance. Therefore, although I realize that a Catholic claims that he doesn’t worship Mary and that it is all just hyperdulia, what I am really looking for is a substantive difference between what he does (by way of venerating Mary) and what is properly called worship (by the NT authors). Therefore, when such a Catholic complains that I won’t listen to his claim that worship isn’t involved…it is not that I don’t hear or understand the claim. It is that I am not sure that the difference in terminology is accompanied by a difference in substance.

In my heart I bet you will never be able to see any substantial differences unless you see the hearts. Many times it is only what we make of what people do. I take the position that one should not be too legalistic in things of the spirit and should not throw out the baby along with the bath tub. One should be truthful to the hearts and allow leeway in one’s action because physical expression is limited that sometimes they may appear the same but differs in intent.

May God bless you

You too.

 

[Radical]

hey Reuben, your posts make sense to me…not that I am prepared to adopt your entire position, but, in yours, I see an intelligent and honest approach. Having had the opportunity to think about this matter in a little more depth, I think it comes down to this (assuming it has been thought about to some degree):

When the Catholic declares that he doesn’t worship Mary and that the CC does not endorse the worship of Mary, that Catholic is starting with the assumption that the CC’s tradition that distinguishes between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria is valid. As such, hyperdulia is hyperdulia and latria is latria and never the twain shall meet.

When the Protestant declares that Catholics worship Mary and that the CC endorses the worship of Mary, that Protestant is (often) starting with the assumption that the CC’s tradition that distinguishes between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria is invalid. As such, he doesn’t see it as legitimate to distinguish between certain forms of hyperdulia and latria.

As such, when the Protestant refuses to accept the Catholic’s declaration it is based upon the Protestants rejection of Catholic tradition…at least that is the way I see it.

Cheers.

 

[Convert66]

Forgive me if this is redundant. I’ve only browsed the last page or so and didn’t see where anyone had gone down this path (I don’t see as good as I used to though).

Anyway, for what it’s worth:

“Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship (proskyneo) before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.” (Rev. 3:9–Jesus speaking)

"And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship(proskyneo) before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship(proskyneo) God." (Rev. 22:8.9).

Why would Jesus say he would cause the liars in Revelation 3:9 to “worship” someone other than God, while the angel in 22:8.9 says do not “worship” (proskyneo–same word) any but God if there isn’t a difference between veneration and worship? What was the difference in what Jesus said He would cause the liars to do, and what John was attempting to do? To my mind, there must be a difference, especially since it was Christ Himself that said so.

All my best . . .

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Originally Posted by Radical
Hey Marsha, good to meet you, I am aware of that assertion, but our different perspectives see the reality of your actions playing out in two entirely different fashions. If I understand you correctly, you would believe that:

Reuben and Radical:

Since Radical stated his position respectfully and in a clear manner, it was not my intention to respond to his posting. Not out of rudeness, but because he believes what he believes and I saw no point in arguing with him. Reuben said to Radical much of what I thought and better than I could have said it, so I thank him.

I would say this about Mary knowing our thoughts. Since God has appointed her Mediatrix of all Graces, I have to assume that He gave her the ability to know our thoughts, or how else could she do her job?

 

[Convert66]

I would say this about Mary knowing our thoughts. Since God has appointed her Mediatrix of all Graces, I have to assume that He gave her the ability to know our thoughts, or how else could she do her job?

If I may butt in, I would add that in the Beatific vision, St. John says: " Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2).

St. Paul also says: " For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." ( 1 Cor. 13:12)

This seems to indicate that in the Beatific vision those who are In Christ are “partakers of the divine nature” and as such we are being seen by a “great cloud of witnesses.” I think this would include Mary, whom Jesus (the same yesterday, today and forever) honors (4th commandment) because He fulfilled the Law and Prophets.

All my best . . . (pardon the interruption)

 

[Carlan]

I am curious as to how the Marian devotees here would answer these questions:

1. Are there devotees in this world that go too far and in fact worship Mary?

If so, in your opinion is the problem extremely rare, rare, common or what?

1. Are there devotees in this world that spend too much time venerating Mary?

If so, in your opinion is the problem extremely rare, rare, comon or what?

1. Are all forms of veneration appropriate, or are there forms of veneration that go too far?

If so, how do such forms go too far?

Hi Radical, no,no yes and no? And I’ve been around so long I’m pretty close to the far end.

the Catholic church has a deep spirituality, You will find many who have a deep devotion to Mary. Mary always through prayer:getholy::angel1::heaven:: draws us closer to her precious Son, her and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Carlan

 

[Guyonthestreet]

I am curious as to how the Marian devotees here would answer these questions:

1. Are there devotees in this world that go too far and in fact worship Mary?

If so, in your opinion is the problem extremely rare, rare, comon or what?

1. Are there devotees in this world that spend too much time venerating Mary?

If so, in your opinion is the problem extremely rare, rare, comon or what?

1. Are all forms of veneration appropriate, or are there forms of veneration that go too far?

If so, how do such forms go too far?

1 - yes, I read on here about a group of nuns who were admonished (maybe even excommunicated) because they worshiped Mary. On an individual civilian level, who knows.

2 - I think for some individuals that’s definately possible.

3 - Yes, I personally think some of the acts of veneration Ive been exposed to in Ireland were way over the top. But that’s me personally as an outside observer - in the correct cultural context it was probably the norm.

 

[Carlan]

1 - yes, I read on here about a group of nuns who were admonished (maybe even excommunicated) because they worshiped Mary. On an individual civilian level, who knows.

2 - I think for some individuals that’s definately possible.

3 - Yes, I personally think some of the acts of veneration Ive been exposed to in Ireland were way over the top. But that’s me personally as an outside observer - in the correct cultural context it was probably the norm.

Hello Guy, what was your source on #1
#2 O.K. your opinion.
#3Could you explain the acts of veneration you consider to be over the top.

May I ask if you are Catholic. Thank you, And God Bless,Carlan

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Hello Guy, what was your source on #1
#2 O.K. your opinion.
#3Could you explain the acts of veneration you consider to be over the top.

May I ask if you are Catholic. Thank you, And God Bless,Carlan

1 - I need to look it up but Im sure it was on here I read about the said group of nuns. I’ll see if I can find it.

3 - I spent a night in a house that must have had something like 50 statues of Mary all over it, in all her titles, including a grotto in the garden and a huge statue in the hallway where fresh flowers were placed every day. Add in the medals worn by the woman, other pictures and icons and to me, that is over the top. There was one picture of the Sacred Heart in the same house.

No - not catholic. But enquiring into the faith. So your prayers are gratefully received. And all here are in mine.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Hello Guy, what was your source on #1

Hold on - it’s coming back to me - the were called the Army of Mary of something like that. Their founder claimed she was possessed by Mary. I’ll see if I can find the link.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Hello Guy, what was your source on #1

catholicknight.blogspot.com/2007/09/worship-mary-get-excommunicated.html

Little Rock, AR, Sep 27, 2007 / 02:17 pm (CNA).- In its 165 years of existence, the Diocese of Little Rock had never experienced its members being excommunicated, that is, until recently. Six sisters in Hot Springs, Arkansas were automatically excommunicated due to their participation in the Community of the Lady of All Nations, or more commonly called, the Army of Mary.

*The group, which was founded in Quebec, Canada is known for elevating the Virgin Mary to the status of God, and the belief that their founder is “possesed by Mary."

"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued the declaration of excommunication on July 11, after extensive consultations with the Canadian bishops and the Vatican’s Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. Pope Benedict XVI approved the declaration, which was only announced by the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops on Sept. 12. CNA coverage here catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=10381

A Vatican official stated that the “association is no longer considered a Catholic organization because of its false teachings on the Trinity and Mary.”*

 

[Carlan]

1 - I need to look it up but Im sure it was on here I read about the said group of nuns. I’ll see if I can find it.

3 - I spent a night in a house that must have had something like 50 statues of Mary all over it, in all her titles, including a grotto in the garden and a huge statue in the hallway where fresh flowers were placed every day. Add in the medals worn by the woman, other pictures and icons and to me, that is over the top. There was one picture of the Sacred Heart in the same house.

No - not catholic. But enquiring into the faith. So your prayers are gratefully received. And all here are in mine.

Thank you for prayer Guy, On #3 . yes I personly would say "wow, a lot. 50 statues of Mother Mary, my little house woudn’t hold that many. I only have a statue of our ‘Lady of Grace’ in my front garden, A crucifix over my front door and one over my back door, another in my bedroom, one in my living room ,Also in my living room I have a lovely photograph of John paul 11 walking in the woods praying the rosary. In my guest room is a beautiful plaque of the Sacred heart of Jesus and over my desk you will see a grouping of Jesus with the little children. That is all,but I would say my Bible belt visitors would not be abe to miss my witness.I love letting everyone know who I am. Would you like to know how much I pray during one day,no I won’t do that, you folks of different religions may think that is a bit over the top.
I am happy to know that you are inquiring into the faith and I ask God to bless you on your journey and you are in my prayer Guy.:heaven:Carlan

 

[Peter_J]

hey Reuben, your posts make sense to me…not that I am prepared to adopt your entire position, but, in yours, I see an intelligent and honest approach. Having had the opportunity to think about this matter in a little more depth, I think it comes down to this (assuming it has been thought about to some degree):

When the Catholic declares that he doesn’t worship Mary and that the CC does not endorse the worship of Mary, that Catholic is starting with the assumption that the CC’s tradition that distinguishes between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria is valid. As such, hyperdulia is hyperdulia and latria is latria and never the twain shall meet.

When the Protestant declares that Catholics worship Mary and that the CC endorses the worship of Mary, that Protestant is (often) starting with the assumption that the CC’s tradition that distinguishes between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria is invalid. As such, he doesn’t see it as legitimate to distinguish between certain forms of hyperdulia and latria.

As such, when the Protestant refuses to accept the Catholic’s declaration it is based upon the Protestants rejection of Catholic tradition…at least that is the way I see it.

Cheers.

Hi Radical. I’ve been following your conversations here, but haven’t had a lot of time for responding. (Perhaps later I’ll re-read your post and think up some good responses.)

 

[Peter_J]

1 - yes, I read on here about a group of nuns who were admonished (maybe even excommunicated) because they worshiped Mary. On an individual civilian level, who knows.

Yes, I remember a group like that which was discussed on this forum several months ago. (Not the same one mentioned in that blog, I don’t think.) They’re definitely not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[Carlan]

catholicknight.blogspot.com/2007/09/worship-mary-get-excommunicated.html

Little Rock, AR, Sep 27, 2007 / 02:17 pm (CNA).- In its 165 years of existence, the Diocese of Little Rock had never experienced its members being excommunicated, that is, until recently. Six sisters in Hot Springs, Arkansas were automatically excommunicated due to their participation in the Community of the Lady of All Nations, or more commonly called, the Army of Mary.

*The group, which was founded in Quebec, Canada is known for elevating the Virgin Mary to the status of God, and the belief that their founder is “possesed by Mary."

"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued the declaration of excommunication on July 11, after extensive consultations with the Canadian bishops and the Vatican’s Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. Pope Benedict XVI approved the declaration, which was only announced by the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops on Sept. 12. CNA coverage here catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=10381*

A Vatican official stated that the “association is no longer considered a Catholic organization because of its false teachings on the Trinity and Mary.”

Oh my goodness Guy, no wonder they were excommunicated, OH, well we will have to pray for them for sure. C

 

[Radical]

Hi Radical. I’ve been following your conversations here, but haven’t had a lot of time for responding. (Perhaps later I’ll re-read your post and think up some good responses.)

That would be great if you could…I am a little short on time today as well (we’re renovating the bathroom), but reading these threads whilst taking a break from wrestling with a toilet is always refreshing. Cheers

 

[Della]

The Army of Mary is an example of people not venerating Mary but of worshiping. We cannot venerate her too much but we can make an idol of her. Veneration is just that and nothing more. Adoration is reserved for God alone. It may appear to non-Catholics as if there is no difference, but the Church acts as if there is because the bishop of any diocese in which people might try to form organized worship/adoration of Mary will shut it down.

I think the whole misunderstanding stems from having a different spiritual view of God and nature. For the Catholic Mary is an integral part of our salvation history. She is not an appendage tacked on as if she was an afterthought.

We have a saying: “No Mary, no Jesus. Know Mary, know Jesus.” It means that God’s plan of salvation, from before time began, included Mary and the Incarnation. This is why we have dogmas concerning Mary’s role/place–they tell us vitally important things about Jesus and God’s plans for us.

We see in Mary an expression of God’s plan of salvation for all mankind–one we as ordinary human beings can imitate in our own walk with God. It is why we venerate her–why she is a part of our daily lives, the one we go to first among all the Saints to help us become like her Son.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I need all the help, graces, blessings I can get. If God has given us Mary as a helper, why should I refuse to let her do so?

 

[Peter_J]

I am curious as to how the Marian devotees here would answer these questions:

1. Are there devotees in this world that go too far and in fact worship Mary?

If so, in your opinion is the problem extremely rare, rare, comon or what?

1. Are there devotees in this world that spend too much time venerating Mary?

If so, in your opinion is the problem extremely rare, rare, comon or what?

1. Are all forms of veneration appropriate, or are there forms of veneration that go too far?

If so, how do such forms go too far?

Hi again.

I think we are all pretty much in agreement that there is such a thing as worship/adoration of Mary (which the Church always endevors to condemn). So it seems the big question is: Aside from those who worship/adore Mary, is it possible to spend too much time venerating Mary or for veneration to in some way “go to far”?

I was just thinking that it might help if we juxtapose that which another question: Aside from those who worship/adore St. Paul (if there are some people) is it possible to spend too much time venerating St. Paul or for veneration of him to in some way “go to far”?