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Guyonthestreet
Guest
The balance in the daily 7 prayer times of the church seems to be just about right to me.
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Radical
Guest
Out of curiosity (again), do you hear the priest ever caution against excess wrt Mary? Is the possibility regularly acknowledged and addressed?
I don’t know how one would make a qualitative distinction between a casual act of worship and a very devout act of veneration… such that one could say the one is definitely worship (adoration) and that the other one is definitely less than worship (adoration).
Here is where I think verses such as Rev 19:10 and 22:8-9 should be referenced. The angel was God’s messenger sent from heaven itself. John awed by the message and the messenger decides twice to fall down at the feet of the angel. Twice the angel says, “Don’t do it, I am but a fellow servant.” That angelic reaction seems (to me) to be what we should expect from the righteous. I can see Paul desiring to be recognized as an apostle and wanting to be accorded the respect and authority that accompanies that office. I can’t recall Paul ever seeking to be venerated by having someone fall down at his feet…I would suggest that we should start with the general presumption that fellow servants are not to be (as a rule) venerated in a dramatic fashion. At the very least we should start with the presumption that the righteous should (typically) have no desire to be venerated. Surely that perspective must seperate me dramatically from the typical devotee of Mary. What are you thoughts?
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napoli426
Guest
Hail Mary, full of Grace.
Blessed art Thou amongst Women,
and Blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb
Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God.
Pray for us Sinners, now,
and at the hour of our death.
Pax!!!
Blessed art Thou amongst Women,
and Blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb
Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God.
Pray for us Sinners, now,
and at the hour of our death.
Pax!!!
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Hi it’s me again.
In Catholicism this seldom arises because the distinction of worship and veneration is clear. Worship is due to God alone and not to any human, even Mary. We can honor and venerate God; we can honor and venerate another human, but never worship.
It is wrong and sin to worship Mary. Any Catholics include priests who do that misunderstood the Church teaching. This kind of thing does happen among the more than one billion Catholics. Misunderstanding is not an issue; doctrine is.
Simple. Like I said, one’s heart will never lie. There are incidences where Catholics put Mary at the same level as Jesus but these are few and far in between, and I don’t know why we keep on harping on this as this is surely internal and personal problem.
But no matter what I do if I know that I don’t put Mary equal to God, I know that I do no wrong. Making word play on this is a waste of time which will not see any conclusive end.
The righteous have no desire to be venerated. And that include to be praised and to be glorified. That however does not stop people from venerating and praising the righteous for the deed they had done.
It is the motive behind the veneration that is important unless we are stupid enough to think that any form of veneration is equal to worship of the living God. The motive behind this veneration is usually love of her (Mary) because she is Jesus mother, admiration of her because she is a perfect disciple of Jesus and can be a role model for us all, gratitude for her for bearing the Son of God where she saw for herself how her son died on the cross for the sins of us all. I am thankful to her because it is her son who died for us instead of our own sons. I am thankful to her for experiencing as if a double edged sword pierced through her heart when she saw her son crucified on the cross. It was not easy for her as it would not be easy for us should our own son is in Jesus’ place. So these are some of the motivation. So why can’t we be thankful, honor and love her?
The verses you cited are poor comparison in this scenario simply because we don’t bow down to worship Mary. Never is it the intention.
God bless you.
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Radical
Guest
Hi, good to hear from you…Hi it’s me again.
I am not attempting word play…I don’t think for a minute that John, after having been blessed with the revelation of Revelation was somehow making the angel (mentioned in Rev 19 and 22) equal to God. John knew who God was and he knew that the angel wasn’t God…yet when John fell down at the angel’s feet, the angel told John to stop. Why, in that situation, couldn’t John just respond with, “But no matter what I do if I know that I don’t put you, a mere angel, equal to God, I know that I do no wrong.” ?
this much is consistent with the action of the angel
had John not stopped, he would have gone against the command/desire of the angel…shouldn’t honour at some point include the honouring such a desire/command?
so what was wrong with John’s motive? It seems that the motive would have been gratitude…
and why couldn’t John be thankful, honor and love the angel…I think John could properly have had those emotions, but he was still told to not fall down at the angel’s feet…
if we restrict the definition of “worship” to an act of adoration directed to one viewed as God (which is what it appears that you do) then John wouldn’t have been bowing down to “worship” the angel…he would have been merely venerating the angel and such was still forbidden. That hopefully, explains why I think those verses do apply to the matter.
God bless you
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Radical
Guest
Hi Convert66…I thought you brought a good and interesting use of " proskyneo" to the thread’s attention…I just didn’t get around to acknowledging your effort.
…I look forward to your remarks regarding my comments on Rev 19 and 22
Cheers
Another interesting use of the word is where the Roman soldiers worship (proskyneo) Jesus at his crucifixion…hardly a case of genuine worship. I think we all agree that there is a difference between veneration and worship and that worship is only due to God. I don’t accept the distinction between dulia and hyperdulia and given verses such as Rev 19:10 and Rev 22:8-9 believe that it is quite possible for adoration (proskyneo) to be directed to someone (who is known to not be God) in a fashion that amounts to forbidden/improper adoration (proskyneo).
…I look forward to your remarks regarding my comments on Rev 19 and 22
Cheers
R
Reuben_J
Guest
**And I fell at his feet to worship him. **Verse 10 (KJV)
John might know that he was an angel but his intention was certainly to worship; and the angel chastised him for that.
Remember we don’t bow and worship Mary. It’s important to note the word ‘worship’ rather than the action ‘bow’. We can bow to anybody as attested in the OT but bowing is not necessarily worship. It is only worship when bowing with the intention to worship.
You know, I can understand your argument. Though reasonable and logical, it is certainly not in the spirit of the Bible for us not to honor another human.
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Filioque
Guest
Radical asked, Out of curiosity (again), do you hear the priest ever caution against excess wrt Mary? Is the possibility regularly acknowledged and addressed?
In short reply, yes.
More lengthly, yes, from the pulpit, from my instruction in the Faith. I’ve also heard lectures and a review of Catholic Apologetics, and in books, by both clergy and laymen have also both warn of the distinction between true veneration and excess.
Some 20 years ago there was a woman in Orange County, Calif, who claimed to be seeing visions of the Trinity and the Saints. He started spreading a “Message” that St. Joseph was the incarnate Holy Ghost, Fully God, and the physical father of Jesus. Her “Message” was and remains condemned.
See the following link. pjpiisoe.org/pamphlets/077US.pdf
Various Marian groups, including the Marovites a sect of Old Catholics, who are not part of the Catholic Church, have been condemned since their foundation for holding false ideas about Marys quasi-divinity, among their other strange excessive beliefs.
Both groups who have misled people, were started by Catholics who abandoned the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church, and still claim to be authentically Catholic. There are any number of groups and individuals who claim to be Catholic, even priests, who omit informing people that the are members or leaders of groups that are not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. The problem is that some of these people further muck up the waters by claiming to be the authentic voice of the Catholic Church. I’ve also seen Anti-Catholics who (if they knew as much about the Catholic Church as they claim) would recognize these groups as “Catholics” who are not in communion with the Holy See, and who teach different doctrines. Sadly there are those who wish to attack the Church, who through ignorance of what the Church teaches, or pure and simple deceit represent these false teachings as Catholic.
In short reply, yes.
More lengthly, yes, from the pulpit, from my instruction in the Faith. I’ve also heard lectures and a review of Catholic Apologetics, and in books, by both clergy and laymen have also both warn of the distinction between true veneration and excess.
Some 20 years ago there was a woman in Orange County, Calif, who claimed to be seeing visions of the Trinity and the Saints. He started spreading a “Message” that St. Joseph was the incarnate Holy Ghost, Fully God, and the physical father of Jesus. Her “Message” was and remains condemned.
See the following link. pjpiisoe.org/pamphlets/077US.pdf
Various Marian groups, including the Marovites a sect of Old Catholics, who are not part of the Catholic Church, have been condemned since their foundation for holding false ideas about Marys quasi-divinity, among their other strange excessive beliefs.
Both groups who have misled people, were started by Catholics who abandoned the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church, and still claim to be authentically Catholic. There are any number of groups and individuals who claim to be Catholic, even priests, who omit informing people that the are members or leaders of groups that are not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. The problem is that some of these people further muck up the waters by claiming to be the authentic voice of the Catholic Church. I’ve also seen Anti-Catholics who (if they knew as much about the Catholic Church as they claim) would recognize these groups as “Catholics” who are not in communion with the Holy See, and who teach different doctrines. Sadly there are those who wish to attack the Church, who through ignorance of what the Church teaches, or pure and simple deceit represent these false teachings as Catholic.
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Peter_J
Guest
I think it varies a lot depending on where you go to church.
My own personal experience with Catholic priests I’ve known is, roughly, closer to what Reuben J (no relation
) said. In other words, the issue seldom arose, especially not in homilies. When it did come up, the focus was usually on letting people know that Catholics are falsely accused of worshipping Mary.
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wwolverine
Guest
1 Chronicles chapter 13: 9-10 says
13:9 And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled.
13:10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.
What did the Ark contain? And why was God so angry with Uzza who just tried to prevent the Ark from falling?
Coming to our text, Mother Mary was the Ark which held in her for 9 months the very Word of God, and here we have people who try and talk ill of this Ark. How angry should God be with these people?
13:9 And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled.
13:10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.
What did the Ark contain? And why was God so angry with Uzza who just tried to prevent the Ark from falling?
Coming to our text, Mother Mary was the Ark which held in her for 9 months the very Word of God, and here we have people who try and talk ill of this Ark. How angry should God be with these people?
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traillius
Guest
I don’t know of any catholics who "worship’ mary, although I guess there might be some somewhere. Any such people are misguided and need prayer. However, Mary is alive because she " accepted Jesus as her personal lord and savior " by her actions and beliefs. If I say to a “saved” protestant, I think you follow God well, I will follow your example, please pray for me, am I "worshipping’ that person? I don’t believe so, by any definition of worship I am familiar with. Again I don’t know everything, only God does. I am simply trying to explain my views and understand those of others.
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