For Protestants who know their "stuff"

[SolaFide]

And so it begins. See, everything that the Church teaches can be supported either by Scripture, by Sacred Tradition (which you will deny the existance of), or, usually, by both. What Luther taught flew in the face of Scripture and Sacred Tradition. I know that you are certain of your position. I know that you are a person of convictions and faith. I also know that there have been a** lot of Catholics before me who where smarter than both of us together. ** They knew that the Catholic Church was the correct Church. Why change?

TO be honest, I am more willing to accept the Morman and Muslim view that the church got off track and God Himself sent an angel down to teach the correct way then I am to believe that a few guys in northern Europe, working a political angle, “found” the true faith.

First of all a large following doesn’t make it right. The Muslims have an large following, their not right. What makes it right is does it hold up to the intense scrutiny of the Scriptures. I don’t see how Catholicism does.

Secondly your comment about accepting an angel telling the church it’s off track is dangerous too. Paul said that even if he (meaning even his apostolic authority didn’t take precedence over the gospel) or an angel preached a different gospel they were to be accursed! (Galatians 1:8-9)

No, the true faith was always around. There were always those who didn’t believe in the Catholic church, they were persecuted for it though. No, those guys didn’t claim to “find” the true faith, the were restoring it and attempting to rescue it from the hands of those who had distorted it.

 

[Steadfast]

I recently picked up this book at the library:

A Special Mission: Hitler’s Secret Plot to Seize the Vatican and Kidnap Pope Pius the XII

So much for the idea that they were in cahoots.

 

[SolaFide]

No Christian group did more than the Catholic church to help the Jews in occupied lands. I am not saying we did enough, but no one did more.

You misunderstood my point. I’m not saying that there weren’t individual Catholics who helped out. I’m sure there were as you say. I’m saying why did the leadership lay down in bed with the despotic leaders and thereby dragging the name of Christ through the mud?

You know if Pius had just stepped up to the plate when he could’ve, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. That’s my point

 

[SolaFide]

I recently picked up this book at the library:

A Special Mission: Hitler’s Secret Plot to Seize the Vatican and Kidnap Pope Pius the XII

So much for the idea that they were in cahoots.

Here’s one for you to read written by someone who went to seminary “The Vicars of Christ: The Dark Side of the Papacy” by Peter DeRosa

 

[mercygate]

You misunderstood my point. I’m not saying that there weren’t individual Catholics who helped out. I’m sure there were as you say. I’m saying why did the leadership lay down in bed with the despotic leaders and thereby dragging the name of Christ through the mud?

You know if Pius had just stepped up to the plate when he could’ve, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. That’s my point

This belongs on another thread. Please start one. The idea that Pius XII was “silent” is a post-war propaganda ploy. Really: not making this up. See Rabbi David Dalin’s book, *The Myth of Hitler’s Pope. *

 

[Steadfast]

Here’s one for you to read written by someone who went to seminary “The Vicars of Christ: The Dark Side of the Papacy” by Peter DeRosa

I’m pretty familiar with the RCC, the Papacy and so on and I believe the office itself to be anti-christian…

I think the worst that can be said of Pius XII is that he was weak.

Somehow I can’t imagine B16 signing the Reichskoncordat.

 

[ralphinal]

First of all a large following doesn’t make it right. The Muslims have an large following, their not right. What makes it right is does it hold up to the intense scrutiny of the Scriptures. I don’t see how Catholicism does.

Secondly your comment about accepting an angel telling the church it’s off track is dangerous too. Paul said that even if he (meaning even his apostolic authority didn’t take precedence over the gospel) or an angel preached a different gospel they were to be accursed! (Galatians 1:8-9)

No, the true faith was always around. There were always those who didn’t believe in the Catholic church, they were persecuted for it though. No, those guys didn’t claim to “find” the true faith, the were restoring it and attempting to rescue it from the hands of those who had distorted it.

Not saying a large following proves it, just extremely intellegent people saw the truth in the teachings. My point about the angel is that if the church was so way off, why did God not do something more about it. Finally, if they were “restoring” the old ways, why so many denominations? Multiple Truths? Who is right, Baptists or Anabaptist? Calvin’s TULIP? Luther’s Small Catechism? THere are many, many denominations in this world and I know that they are not ALL correct because they all teach something different.

Please give me some examples of true believers that were persecuted by the church PRIOR to the Reformation.

 

[SolaFide]

Not saying a large following proves it, just extremely intellegent people saw the truth in the teachings. My point about the angel is that if the church was so way off, why did God not do something more about it. Finally, if they were “restoring” the old ways, why so many denominations? Multiple Truths? Who is right, Baptists or Anabaptist? Calvin’s TULIP? Luther’s Small Catechism? THere are many, many denominations in this world and I know that they are not ALL correct because they all teach something different.

Please give me some examples of true believers that were persecuted by the church PRIOR to the Reformation.

What would you have liked Him to do about it? All through the Scriptures God sent the prophets to get the people back in line. They didn’t listen.

God used godly men like Luther, Calvin, Swingli, Tyndale, and others but the Church refused to listen.

God, in His infinite wisdom, chooses to use His weak, earthen vessels to work out His purposes on earth. For now. It’s up to us to listen or not.

What about salvation are they ALL teaching different? Like I said, on the basics we agree. Sadly, it is on the non-essentials we’ve disagreed.

 

[SolaFide]

Well, I’ve gotta run. I’ve got work to do. I know you’ll all miss me terribly until I come back on Friday.

 

[ralphinal]

What would you have liked Him to do about it? All through the Scriptures God sent the prophets to get the people back in line. They didn’t listen.

God used godly men like Luther, Calvin, Swingli, Tyndale, and others but the Church refused to listen.

God, in His infinite wisdom, chooses to use His weak, earthen vessels to work out His purposes on earth. For now. It’s up to us to listen or not.

What about salvation are they ALL teaching different? Like I said, on the basics we agree. Sadly, it is on the non-essentials we’ve disagreed.

What is an essential? The need for water baptism? The Trinity? The nature of man? Even in sola Fide and Sola Scriptura you get some differences in understanding. Predestination? Once saved, always saved?

 

[Joyousguard]

My apologies for being a bit late to the discussion.

I would also like to make mention that even the New York Times, a newspaper owned by a Jewish Family, made mention of Pope PiusXII being the “lone voice” in Europe opposing Hitler and his cronies during an editorial in 1942. I’ll try and find the article.

If Solafide would be so kind as to respond to the last few posts of Mannyfit75. I’m curious to see where this will lead.

And Mannyfit75, if you would be so kind as to post the source for your citations so I can bookmark and read them.

For those who are interested in a good read about the topic of “Hitler’s Pope” amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against-Germany/dp/0895260344

Another interesting article talking about Hitler’s attempt to kidnap the pope: catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=24275

 

[Joyousguard]

What would you have liked Him to do about it? All through the Scriptures God sent the prophets to get the people back in line. They didn’t listen.

God used godly men like Luther, Calvin, Swingli, Tyndale, and others but the Church refused to listen.

God, in His infinite wisdom, chooses to use His weak, earthen vessels to work out His purposes on earth. For now. It’s up to us to listen or not.

What about salvation are they ALL teaching different? Like I said, on the basics we agree. Sadly, it is on the non-essentials we’ve disagreed.

It is interesting to note that members of the Church were calling for reforms other than future protestants. Savonarola was one such person. “From 1493 Savonarola spoke with increasing violence against the abuses in ecclesiastical life, against the immorality of a large part of the clergy, above all against the immoral life of many members of the Roman Curia, even of the wearer of the tiara, Alexander VI, and against the wickedness of princes and courtiers. In prophetic terms he announced the approaching judgment of God and the avenger from whom he hoped the reform of Church life.” (newadvent.org/cathen/13490a.htm)

The difference bewteen protestanst such as luther and men such as Savonarola is that the later was not of a “love it or leave it” mentality as we see predominate in many protestant churches. If you disagree with anything simply start your own church and move on. Those dediacted to the Church should not have this mentality but rather one of “love it and work to make it better”. The Church is not perfect but many of us continue to fight and push for it to become closer to being so.

At the same time it should be noted that while the reformation within the Catholic church was happening before the “Protestant Reformation” it is of no doubt that the Protestant Reformation did have a very positive impact on the Church as well and hasten reforms that may have taken longer. Protestants are our brothers and sisters and should be treaeted as such. we should aslo thank them for tempering the steel of Catholic Church and teachings in the fires of the reformation.

pax tecum

 

[mercygate]

It is interesting to note that members of the Church were calling for reforms other than future protestants. Savonarola was one such person. “From 1493 Savonarola spoke with increasing violence against the abuses in ecclesiastical life, against the immorality of a large part of the clergy, above all against the immoral life of many members of the Roman Curia, even of the wearer of the tiara, Alexander VI, and against the wickedness of princes and courtiers. In prophetic terms he announced the approaching judgment of God and the avenger from whom he hoped the reform of Church life.” (newadvent.org/cathen/13490a.htm)

The difference bewteen protestanst such as luther and men such as Savonarola is that the later was not of a “love it or leave it” mentality as we see predominate in many protestant churches. If you disagree with anything simply start your own church and move on. Those dediacted to the Church should not have this mentality but rather one of “love it and work to make it better”. The Church is not perfect but many of us continue to fight and push for it to become closer to being so.

At the same time it should be noted that while the reformation within the Catholic church was happening before the “Protestant Reformation” it is of no doubt that the Protestant Reformation did have a very positive impact on the Church as well and hasten reforms that may have taken longer. Protestants are our brothers and sisters and should be treaeted as such. we should aslo thank them for tempering the steel of Catholic Church and teachings in the fires of the reformation.

pax tecum

Looks to me like the barque of Peter has pretty much cleaned up its act but the Reform denominations are sinking fast. Time to get back on the mother ship!

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I suppose that it depends on your perspective, but Savonarola may not be the best example here. Pope Alexander VI (a Borgia pope) excommunicated him, then had him tortured and burned.

These days, there are apparently those who support his beatification, but others who do not because of his attacks on the pope (though it’s generally understood that his attacks on the pope’s excesses were not so far off the mark–Alexander VI was not a particularly shining example of moral rectitude).

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[jmcrae]

What about salvation are they ALL teaching different?

Yes. Some of them teach that Baptism is essential to salvation; others teach that it is merely symbolic, and thus, not required.

Like I said, on the basics we agree. Sadly, it is on the non-essentials we’ve disagreed.

It’s only a “non-essential” if you don’t believe it to be essential for salvation, but you think it’s okay if other Protestants (more superstitious than yourself, of course) think they have to do it - you’re not going to stand in their way. But, your list of “non-essentials” is probably some other Protestant’s list of “essentials,” and they’re probably looking at you in horror, thinking, “Those poor kids; they aren’t going to get to go to Heaven!”

 

[qui_est_ce]

I have read the posts of a number of fellow Protestants who obviously know their “stuff”.
You have read the Early Christian Fathers, scripture, and with apologies to Cardinal Newman, “Are deep into history”.

Yet, we do not convert for a number of reasons.
I am not really interested in debate. I have read all of the debates a hundred times but in the thoughts of people who MIGHT find themselves in this situation.
BH

A very thoughtful interesting, well-put together request for people who “know their stuff”
and the reply:

It would’ve meant the world to millions of Jews who had relatives die in the Holocaust because the rank and file Catholic was afraid to hide Jews or to speak out because their own pope was too cowardly to do so!!

Derailing the thread. It’s obvious that Sola does not “know his stuff.” He can’t stick to the subject because he has to resort to lies to defend his position.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3017304#post3017304
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3016909&postcount=88His his rants and lies have made me admire and respect my beautiful Catholic Church even more.

Sola is an embarrasement to the honest Protestants on this Forum.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Sorry you feel that way.

I’ve been studying Catholicism for several years now, both their writings and others. I find the unknowledgable ones to be those who look at opposing views as those they are always wrong.

Karl Keating and Peter Kreeft have some good things to say. But they are also wrong on some things. I take eat meat and spit out the bones. You seem to not even want to consider anything I say. That’s too bad.

You studied Catholicism but you still have no clue what the Catholic Church teaches. It is apparent in your posts here. What I do see as well as other Catholics see that what you think Catholicism is is merely your own opinions. It is contrary to what the Church actually teaches.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Here’s one for you to read written by someone who went to seminary “The Vicars of Christ: The Dark Side of the Papacy” by Peter DeRosa

An apparent Anti-Catholic material which distorts the facts no doubt. It could be just as worst if Dan Brown wrote it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

And Mannyfit75, if you would be so kind as to post the source for your citations so I can bookmark and read them.

They are from catholic.com There is a tract there on Pope Pius XII.

The information on Jewish Wars can be found in Wikipedia. Type Jewish Roman Wars.

 

[mark_a]

The Catholic teaching on contraception was our gateway into the Catholic Church. We intuited the correctness of the Catholic position on contraception without really understanding it, and give it up (much to the improvement of our marriage, btw). After that, the rest of the picture began to fill in with technicolor and flesh out in all dimensions.

Good to hear.

Protestants will argue any other point all day, but they don’t touch the contraception issue.

Wonder why?