For Protestants who know their "stuff"

[BrianH]

Good to hear.

Protestants will argue any other point all day, but they don’t touch the contraception issue.

Wonder why?

Because contraception is not an issue for most people. It has dropped of the radar. 99% of Protestants, outside of the area of abortion, do not think about it. Yes yes, I know the history of how every major church opposed it until whatever year…I PROMISE I KNOW THAT (someone will post it anyway)
A very high percentage of Catholics do not follow the churches teachings either. That is not an attack, it is simply accurate from what I have read. I am not debating the issue, what I am saying is that in this country, contraception never comes up because it **never ever comes up **in Protestant churches, that I am aware of, unless it involves the issue of abortion.
Our society accepts it and while I am sure there are probably a higher percentage of Catholics who do not use birth control its not going to be a whole lot of difference, but someone may prove me wrong.

BH (father of a lot of kids) and feels justified in answering
And the starter of a thread that has long since lost its original purpose

 

[Rightlydivide]

Good to hear.

Protestants will argue any other point all day, but they don’t touch the contraception issue.

Wonder why?

I don’t know why. The Bible does not say anything about it directly. I am studying the issue at present among other ones.

 

[Truthstalker]

And the starter of a thread that has long since lost its original purpose

Not really, BH.

Another hesitancy I have is the idea of being a double schismatic. If I leave the church I am in to go to the Catholic Church, I am in a way voluntarily committing schism, which I didn’t do by starting out my Christian walk as a Protestant. Unless I am fully convinced of Catholicism’s claims I could find myself turning around quickly. There is a romantic picture of the Catholic Church, which must, I guess, exist somewhere, but it seems to be the pot at the end of the rainbow. People who mouth the Nicene Creed most Sundays and deny it in their teaching on Thursday nights…

My pastor and I once discussed the possibility of our denomination coming into the Catholic Church as a group. How that would happen I have no idea (Reformed Rite of the Catholic Church? St. Calvin’s Cathedral?). I would not be opposed to it, and neither would he, but there would be an enormous amount of work to be done. Both sides have changed much since the Presbyterians left, or were kicked out, depending on your POV.

 

[Truthstalker]

Good to hear.

Protestants will argue any other point all day, but they don’t touch the contraception issue.

Wonder why?

Partly, I think, any hesitance might be due to the nature of the subject. Sex is private, contraception even more so.

One issue you indirectly raise may bear on Protestant hesitance towards conversion, and that is the whole lack of privacy thing: Confession, for one thing. Submission of conscience, another. Submitting your income tax forms to the church so the church can verify that you tithe (or is that just an ugly rumor?) When the priest in RCIA told me that I would have to have my marriage convalidated, or validated, or stamped or something, it felt really weird. Is it any of his business? Well, yes, I thought to myself: Marriage a sacrament and all that. Priests conduct marriages. They conduct funerals. If I converted, one would bury me. Weird. It took a while to work through, something that stopped when the RCIA instructor was teaching modalism as trinitarianism and I left the class very angry, after telling him off loudly.

 

[Maui71]

Was it Tim Staples who finally surrendered her saying, “Mary, I accept you as my personal mother?”

I really don’t know??

 

[Maui71]

And the starter of a thread that has long since lost its original purpose

Yea, I am disappointed too. Not that I was Protestant but I really wanted to see what people would answer. I still appreciate your effort BH.

 

[jmcrae]

Partly, I think, any hesitance might be due to the nature of the subject. Sex is private, contraception even more so.

One issue you indirectly raise may bear on Protestant hesitance towards conversion, and that is the whole lack of privacy thing: Confession, for one thing.

Confession is between you and your Confessor. He can’t tell anyone what you have confessed. It’s even tighter than doctor/patient confidentiality. You can think of your priest as a kind of spiritual doctor. When we go to Confession, we are not judged, but rather healed - just as when we go to the doctor, he doesn’t pass judgement on our lifestyle choices, but just gives us the medicine and advice we need in order to get well again.

Submission of conscience, another.

Nobody is ever going to be hiding under the bed to make sure you are conforming your life to the teachings of the Church. It is up to you to choose to do so, freely. Nobody except God ever “checks up” on you, and when you go to Confession, it’s you who makes the list of your sins to confess; nobody else.

Submitting your income tax forms to the church so the church can verify that you tithe (or is that just an ugly rumor?)

Ugly rumor. I have never had to do this. Most Catholics don’t tithe. (It’s one of our biggest problems, actually - it takes about ten times the number of Catholics to support a priest as it takes Protestants to support a pastor and his family.) We are required to contribute to the support of our priests, but this can be in any amount, and in any form that works for us - if you have no money, you can do an hour of volunteer work per week at the Church, or whatever works best for you.

When the priest in RCIA told me that I would have to have my marriage convalidated, or validated, or stamped or something, it felt really weird. Is it any of his business?

Yep; he’s your spiritual doctor, and your spiritual health is his highest priority.

Well, yes, I thought to myself: Marriage a sacrament and all that. Priests conduct marriages. They conduct funerals. If I converted, one would bury me. Weird. It took a while to work through, something that stopped when the RCIA instructor was teaching modalism as trinitarianism and I left the class very angry, after telling him off loudly.

You realize that you weren’t going to be converting to that guy, right? You were going to be converting to the Catholic Church, and believing its authentic teachings. It was the right thing to do, to tell him off, but it was wrong to quit just because of him. Someone like that should not have that kind of power over where you are going to spend your eternity, and you should not have given it to him.

 

[East_and_West]

I don’t know why. The Bible does not say anything about it directly. I am studying the issue at present among other ones.

ummm… didn’t God kill Onan for it?

 

[Mijoy2]

Because contraception is not an issue for most people. It has dropped of the radar. 99% of Protestants, outside of the area of abortion, do not think about it. Yes yes, I know the history of how every major church opposed it until whatever year…I PROMISE I KNOW THAT (someone will post it anyway)

Pope John Paul II The Theology of the Body.

The Church will never “drop” the issue of contraception. The Church will not drop the issue of contraception even if virtually all Catholics disregard this truth. No more so then the Church would drop any issue of truth regardless of popularity. This is what seperates the Catholic Church from all others. The Church does not condemn contraception. Our Lord condemns contraception because it violates His divine law. It violates God himself who is Love.

The protestants miss so much because they are protestants. When one protests something it follows one ceases to study what they protest. They miss the beautiful exegesis of our beloved pope (both past and present).

The teaching on what is wrong with contraception is beautiful, not legalistic. It’s also timeless, as is the Catholic Church.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Karl Keating and Peter Kreeft have some good things to say. But they are also wrong on some things. I take eat meat and spit out the bones. You seem to not even want to consider anything I say. .

Actually, I have been considering EVERYTHING you have to say. I have followed your posts since your join date of 11/26/07.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3017304#post3017304

An ungracious answer to graceious welcome. Even in the secular world this would be unacceptable, much less in a Christian environment.

That’s too bad

No, it’s too good because you have proven yourself a liar, and Satan is the Father of all lies.

Keep coming back, you are helping the case for being Catholic.

 

[qui_est_ce]

BH (father of a lot of kids) and feels justified in answering
And the starter of a thread that has long since lost its original purpose

Yes, Brian, look who derailed the thread, and we Catholics always fall for it. Could you give a response to Sola? Perhaps because you are not Catholic, he might actually respond to the subject of the thread?

 

[benedicter]

You misunderstood my point. I’m not saying that there weren’t individual Catholics who helped out. I’m sure there were as you say. I’m saying why did the leadership lay down in bed with the despotic leaders and thereby dragging the name of Christ through the mud?

That is a profound and definitive point I can’t agree with. Why then was Edith Stein arrested in Holland (St Teresa Benedicta, Jewish Catholic Carmelite) because the Nazis sent out a warning to all Church leaders to stop preaching against the Nazi regime from the pulpit or the Jewish Christians would be arrested in retaliation. The Catholic Bishops kept preaching and she (along with others I’m sure) were arrested. All clearly documented.

 

[Mijoy2]

What is an essential? The need for water baptism? The Trinity? The nature of man? Even in sola Fide and Sola Scriptura you get some differences in understanding. Predestination? Once saved, always saved?

This is just the icing on the cake, there is a whole cake underneath. Everytime I hear a popular protestant minister, minister, I hear a different ministry. If I ask myself by what authority I may appeal the differences, I am told the Holy Spirit. We have a Holy Trinity (means Three) the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We do not have a Holy Army, the Father, Son and a 6 billion Holy Spirits (one for each of us).

Even Luther would not recognize any of the protestant churches today. From reading his 25 Thesises Luther (with his rebellion) was much much more Catholic then any protestant church (including Lutherean I believe).

Protestants have not stopped protesting since 1517. Now, they protest one another. Walking further and further away from the Church (with all it’s warts – on individuals) that existed in the first 16 centuries as well as the last 5. And, God willing, many more.

 

[mercygate]

Good to hear.

Protestants will argue any other point all day, but they don’t touch the contraception issue.

Wonder why?

Many Protestants, who espouse the pro-life position on abortion, are coming to see the seamless continuum with contraception. Scott and Kimberly Hahn stopped contracepting long before they became Catholic.

 

[mercygate]

I don’t know why. The Bible does not say anything about it directly. I am studying the issue at present among other ones.

Good for you! I always cite Romans 1:26 as a scriptural foundation – although the case against contraception is not explicitly laid out in that form in Scripture. The case is based in natural law. Paul says that what can be known about God is visible on the face of creation and he draws in the failure to “read creation” as leading to idolatry and sexual perversion. Although the immediate context of Rom 1:23-26 is the idolatry of homosexuality, I see his reference to women exchanging “natural relations for unnatural” as part of the wider spectrum. Contracepted sex is nothing if not “unnatural relations.”

Catholics, via the natural law route, do not dissociate the procreative from the unitive aspects of human sexuality. But you can look for this yourself. A good place to start is a booklet by John F. Kippley, Sex and the Marriage Covenant.

 

[mercygate]

Partly, I think, any hesitance might be due to the nature of the subject. Sex is private, contraception even more so.

One issue you indirectly raise may bear on Protestant hesitance towards conversion, and that is the whole lack of privacy thing: Confession, for one thing. Submission of conscience, another.

Interesting. “Privacy” is a concept that never would have occurred to me, even as a Protestant. Once we are in Christ, our lives are no longer our own (doesn’t Paul say something about that? ).

Submitting your income tax forms to the church so the church can verify that you tithe (or is that just an ugly rumor?)

Nope. Just wishful thinking. If people contributed according to their income in my parish, we could have a free school!

When the priest in RCIA told me that I would have to have my marriage convalidated, or validated, or stamped or something, it felt really weird. Is it any of his business? Well, yes, I thought to myself: Marriage a sacrament and all that.

Righty-o!

hPriests conduct marriages. They conduct funerals. If I converted, one would bury me. Weird. It took a while to work through, something that stopped when the RCIA instructor was teaching modalism as trinitarianism and I left the class very angry, after telling him off loudly.

I hope your rant included a loud affirmation that the Catholic Church does NOT teach modalism! Man! If you ever make it across the Tiber, it will be strictly a God-driven operation. No doubt about that!

 

[East_Anglican]

I agree and I find it a very sad state of affairs. Someone looking for the truth shouldn’t have to ferret out Vactican documents, search all over the internet, and be constantly second guessing what goes on in their parish.

I have two suggestions. Pray (and pray and pray).

That is the answer. We ferret around because we are not seeking Jesus. Jesus has all the answers.

Pray!

 

[East_Anglican]

TO be honest, I am more willing to accept the Morman and Muslim view that the church got off track and God Himself sent an angel down to teach the correct way then I am to believe that a few guys in northern Europe, working a political angle, “found” the true faith.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Mormans and Muslims do not.

 

[ralphinal]

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Mormans and Muslims do not.

I was not saying that I think they are right. I am saing it is more logical that if the Church was so wrong, God would do more. FOr example, the guy down the street from me has started a church in his basement. He says that he is practicing the true faith of the Apostles. What? How can a dude who was an electrician in Birmingham, Alabama, rediscover the faith? Am I the only one who thinks that is crazy?

 

[East_Anglican]

I was not saying that I think they are right. I am saing it is more logical that if the Church was so wrong, God would do more. FOr example, the guy down the street from me has started a church in his basement. He says that he is practicing the true faith of the Apostles. What? How can a dude who was an electrician in Birmingham, Alabama, rediscover the faith? Am I the only one who thinks that is crazy?

The world has many people in it who believe that when they first read The Bible, they were reading something nobody else had bothered to read before.

Starting one in an upper room would be bettrer than starting one in a basement.