F
FCGeorge
Guest
Hello cviolate, I don’t disagree. I wouldn’t choose to remain faithful, for example, to what St. Augustine called an “adulterous remarriage.”
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
- Status
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
O
Oh_Charlotte
Guest
I would love to discuss these things with you, because I think there is some error in your logic. But I want to make sure that you don’t see it as a damaging kind of challenging. Its a sensitive issue for you as you are in the midst of things. For me, it has been eight years since the close of my long difficult “marriage”. I held once some of the views you hold here and *some *of them I have changed. I have added to it some of what our Chruch teaches on marriage, and broadened my view by including it. But I do not want to discuss it with you if it is a sensitive area. So I want to make sure you think these things are open for discussion before I say anything.
But I do want to say, you seem to have left out completely: annulment. That a marraige that looks to everyone else like a marraige may in fact not be. Mine looked like one. We married in a Presbyterian Chruch, i wore a white dress and had bridesmaids in lovely velvet dresses, we stayed many years married - we had problems, like he didn’t want children until one year I finally ground him down over it, but we did holidays and daily life like a couple, shared the same name, wore rings (at least I did) and shared all our finances (or, I foolishly gave him my professional paycheck to manage…) filed joint tax returns as a married couple, went to the Baptist Church together, never cheated on each other till he did at the end, unless he did earlier and I didn’t know. Etc. Exactly like a married couple!
Now it looks like I am going to be given a Certificate of Nullity becasue of invalid form at the time of marriage. Its a relief to me because I have solid grounds for annulment, but now I also will not have to go through that process of reliving those bad days in order to have it declared Null. According to the Church, then, I was never married.
I am so relieved about this, I am going to have some kind of celebration when it comes through. A very devout friend noticed that when I talked about my ex, referrign to him as “husband” as I referred to him all those years, a “look” crossed my face. As if I was lying. I was uncomfortable calling him husband. She pointed out that he never acted as husband to me. And that I ought to annul; it would bring me peace for the Church to confirm the reality, on heaven and earth, that I was never married.
So this truth and reality hits me. No matter what it looks to the world, not matter what I said of myself all those years, in the eyes of God, I was never married. It might seem crazy and unlike reality to the world who saw me as married, and see me now as divorced, but Gods ways are not our ways. And when this goes through, God himself will have spoken. It was not a marriage. I was never married. And because of that, I will be free to truly marry…
The reality of marriages that look like marriages because of weddings, shared lives, and intimacy being declared to be never have been a marriage in God’s eyes according to the authority of the Catholic Church is a reality you seem to overlook, Bryan. Am I wrong?
I
In_Spiration
Guest
Everyone considering an annulment should be aware of a few things, of course, to make sure nobody unwittingly contributes to a very serious, growing problem. The nullity of a marriage should never be taken lightly – just ask Henry VIII – because one would be highly vicious if he ever were to pressure or manipulate Church authorities into an abused practice. Hence, I recommend anyone who’s interested to find out the rules and make an honest assessment before taking any definite actions. I also urge a thoughtful remembrance of the following:
Pope cautions tribunals against granting annulments too easily
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Granting marriage annulments too easily and without real cause plays into a modern form of pessimism that basically says human beings are not able to make lifelong commitments to loving another person, Pope Benedict XVI said.
“We run the risk of falling into an anthropological pessimism which, in the light of today’s cultural situation, considers it almost impossible to marry,” the pope said in a speech Jan. 29 to members of the Tribunal of the Roman Rota.
The tribunal mainly deals with appeals filed in marriage annulment cases.
Pope Benedict said there is still a need to deal with a problem Pope John Paul II pointed out in a 1987 speech to the Roman Rota, that of saving the church community from “the scandal of seeing the value of Christian marriage destroyed in practice by the exaggerated and almost automatic multiplication of declarations of nullity.”
Pope Benedict said he agreed with Pope John Paul that too often members of church tribunals see a failed marriage and grant the annulment on the basis of an ill-defined case of “immaturity or psychic weakness.”
The annulment crisis in the Church
The United States has 6% of the world’s Catholics but grants 78% percent of the world’s annulments. In 1968 the Church there granted fewer than 600 annulments; from 1984 to 1994 it granted just under 59,000 annually. But more than 90% of the cases which were appealed to the highest matrimonial court, the Roman Rota, were overturned.
“Notwithstanding efforts by some canonists to add layers of complexity to the rights, duties, and properties of marriage,” states Vasoli, “there really is not much that one must know and will to enter a valid marriage.”
. . .He also noted that “the tribunal is to make use of the services of an expert in psychology or psychiatry who shares a Christian anthropology in accordance with the Church’s understanding of the human person.” Most importantly, the Pope stated that “marriage enjoys the favour of the law” (Code of Canon Law, #1060) and that “the judge may not pass sentence in favour of the nullity . . . if he has not first acquired the moral certainty of the existence of nullity; probability alone is not sufficient to decide a case.”
Reject easy annulments, Pope tells Vatican tribunal
“Without truth charity slides into sentimentalism,” the Pope told officials of the Roman Rota, at the opening of its judicial term. . . .] He decried the use of pseudo-psychological theories that see any marital problems as evidence of nullity, observing that this approach has the deleterious effect of “transforming all conjugal difficulties into a symptom of a failed union whose essential nucleus of justice-- the indissoluble bond-- is thus effectively denied.”
Annulment Facts
The Code of Canon Law states marriage annulments are to be based only on “GRAVE marital deficiencies”.
Pope cautions tribunals against granting annulments too easily
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Granting marriage annulments too easily and without real cause plays into a modern form of pessimism that basically says human beings are not able to make lifelong commitments to loving another person, Pope Benedict XVI said.
“We run the risk of falling into an anthropological pessimism which, in the light of today’s cultural situation, considers it almost impossible to marry,” the pope said in a speech Jan. 29 to members of the Tribunal of the Roman Rota.
The tribunal mainly deals with appeals filed in marriage annulment cases.
Pope Benedict said there is still a need to deal with a problem Pope John Paul II pointed out in a 1987 speech to the Roman Rota, that of saving the church community from “the scandal of seeing the value of Christian marriage destroyed in practice by the exaggerated and almost automatic multiplication of declarations of nullity.”
Pope Benedict said he agreed with Pope John Paul that too often members of church tribunals see a failed marriage and grant the annulment on the basis of an ill-defined case of “immaturity or psychic weakness.”
The annulment crisis in the Church
The United States has 6% of the world’s Catholics but grants 78% percent of the world’s annulments. In 1968 the Church there granted fewer than 600 annulments; from 1984 to 1994 it granted just under 59,000 annually. But more than 90% of the cases which were appealed to the highest matrimonial court, the Roman Rota, were overturned.
“Notwithstanding efforts by some canonists to add layers of complexity to the rights, duties, and properties of marriage,” states Vasoli, “there really is not much that one must know and will to enter a valid marriage.”
. . .He also noted that “the tribunal is to make use of the services of an expert in psychology or psychiatry who shares a Christian anthropology in accordance with the Church’s understanding of the human person.” Most importantly, the Pope stated that “marriage enjoys the favour of the law” (Code of Canon Law, #1060) and that “the judge may not pass sentence in favour of the nullity . . . if he has not first acquired the moral certainty of the existence of nullity; probability alone is not sufficient to decide a case.”
Reject easy annulments, Pope tells Vatican tribunal
“Without truth charity slides into sentimentalism,” the Pope told officials of the Roman Rota, at the opening of its judicial term. . . .] He decried the use of pseudo-psychological theories that see any marital problems as evidence of nullity, observing that this approach has the deleterious effect of “transforming all conjugal difficulties into a symptom of a failed union whose essential nucleus of justice-- the indissoluble bond-- is thus effectively denied.”
Annulment Facts
The Code of Canon Law states marriage annulments are to be based only on “GRAVE marital deficiencies”.
H
hurting
Guest
Thank you, as well, Bryan, for keeping the discussion alive on an important topic.
O
Oh_Charlotte
Guest
This is the truth, Joan of Arc. Do you find that there are those not willing to concede to the Church’s teaching aobut Annulment? Or that the possibility that Annulments have been over-given make them ALL suspect?
I think in our deteriorating society, with so many children raised by babysitters and in institutional day care, there are a whole lot of damaged people who are in fact incapable of keeping their vows, and that might have a lot to do with why there are so many divorces, and annulments.
And there are a lot of people who do thin its possible to save any marriage. There are pope who teach it. There are preachers, the “name it and claim it” kind - and there are many of those - who also teach that one can expect God to act, and expect a miracle for him to heal your marriage.
I expected that, I believed that, and it it was not for that belief - because obviously my husband was not capable or willing to have anything like spousal love - I would never have been married so long. I was trusting God, waiting on God to do the miracle to heal my husband, thereby healing the marriage.
That was a by-product of so much Protestant faith-teaching. In the end, he left, sued for divorce and custody, and I wanted to sue back for “no divorce” because I did not believe in divorce". fantastical thinking: if I did not “believe” in divorce, I could prevent it from happening. But my lawyer, one with a very good reputation for winning, said if I did, my ex could get a divorce in a year anyway, and by that time the judge may well think I was crazy, and grant my ex custody…
This brought me to the strictest most orthodox priest I could find.
I told him that I felt like I was giving up on God to sue my ex back for divorce as my lawyer advised. I had waited all these years for God to do a miracle, and now was I going to give up on expecting God to act??
The priest said that God does miracles, but he never tells us to expect one.
Okay, so that was the first lie I had believed was truth.
Then he said God rarely, if ever, violates the will, so that the prayer to changed someone’s will was not a common one to get answered.
Okay, that was the 2nd error I had in understanding God.
I realized that my ex was not going to change his will, since that would be admitting he had a problem, and like a textbook Narcissist, that was NEVER going to happen. And God was not going to MAKE him change his will.
Then the priest told me I had been trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, all those years working on my marriage.
And that was more fantastical thinking on my part.
Acceptance of reality was a challenge for me. But accepting reality is accepting truth and the truth sets us free.
God is very understanding of us when we are too weak to accept reality and live in truth. He understands when we lean on our own understanding, and choose to believe what we think is right is what HE thinks is right. The more we covet what we think, the harder we hold on. I held on for years to my firm believe that God wanted me to be a martyr for my marriage. It took me a long time to let go of my self-prescribed role. God understood. He was kind to me in my error. But I was in error…
J
joanofarc2008
Guest
I was in error as well the first time I took my xh back. He almost killed me. So you can say that God protected me from this. I learned my lesson almost the hard way. This reminds me of St Phillip Neri quote that someone posted today on facebook:
I think sometimes there is a certain pride in being the martyr. That pride can sometimes be the same pride that made us hold on to our marriage long after maybe the other party realized it never was a marriage. I think this is the same pride that keeps some from submitting the facts to the Will of God through the investigation of the Tribunal.
O
Oh_Charlotte
Guest
So, Joan of Arc, i am also suspicious of anyone who brings up annulment only to point to selected articles concerning the possibility that the Church has granted too many of them. Unless said person is clearly acknowledging the necessity of the Holy Mother Church to grant annulment in many cases, I tend to think that person might be another one of those wishful-thinkers, like I was. And i get it. You couldn’t have changed me then, either.* I knew best* - better than the Church!
I, also, suspected the Church was probably wrong on annulment. When I converted, and priests would hear of my marriage, “Not a marriage!” would come up immediately, and the shocking, “You can have it annulled”.
The first priest to bring this up was minutes after I met him to discuss my conversion. He asked me if I had discussed my conversion with my husband. To change the subject, I simply told him I cannot discuss things that matter to me with him; I will make him angry! (I saw it as a prime duty of mine to not make him angry, and had mastered the art of walking on eggshells…) I thought the shocking notion of divorce and annulment meant there was a flaw in this priest! He was right about everything else, but certainly wrong about this!
But more priests brought it up whenever I mentioned aspects of my marriage. I didn’;t want to hear it, that God wanted me a martyr in a bad marriage was an accepted given to me. I made a vow before God, for better or for worse, so, it was worse. I thought he Church was just all wrong on this. Even when I had to divorce against my will, I stayed away from annulment because I suspected the Church must be wrong. I had fear of Holy Mother Church’s mistakes.
Then Jesus healed me in October, and fear that had ruled my life vanished. Including this. I realized that every time I thought I knew more than the Catholic Church, I had been proven wrong, and likely was going to be proven wrong in this too.
And so my role as a martyr for my failed marriage ended, and I realized I could accept what how the Church ruled on my marriage, and I would be safe on earth and in Heaven by sticking with the Church on the matter.
I do understand people who think they know better than the Church on this. There are many Protestant pastors teaching otherwise on it - that you CAN expect a miracle, that God WILL heal your spouse even if your spouse doesn’t want it. But the Catholic Church is where the entire truth is deposited. I will stick with her!
I, also, suspected the Church was probably wrong on annulment. When I converted, and priests would hear of my marriage, “Not a marriage!” would come up immediately, and the shocking, “You can have it annulled”.
The first priest to bring this up was minutes after I met him to discuss my conversion. He asked me if I had discussed my conversion with my husband. To change the subject, I simply told him I cannot discuss things that matter to me with him; I will make him angry! (I saw it as a prime duty of mine to not make him angry, and had mastered the art of walking on eggshells…) I thought the shocking notion of divorce and annulment meant there was a flaw in this priest! He was right about everything else, but certainly wrong about this!
But more priests brought it up whenever I mentioned aspects of my marriage. I didn’;t want to hear it, that God wanted me a martyr in a bad marriage was an accepted given to me. I made a vow before God, for better or for worse, so, it was worse. I thought he Church was just all wrong on this. Even when I had to divorce against my will, I stayed away from annulment because I suspected the Church must be wrong. I had fear of Holy Mother Church’s mistakes.
Then Jesus healed me in October, and fear that had ruled my life vanished. Including this. I realized that every time I thought I knew more than the Catholic Church, I had been proven wrong, and likely was going to be proven wrong in this too.
And so my role as a martyr for my failed marriage ended, and I realized I could accept what how the Church ruled on my marriage, and I would be safe on earth and in Heaven by sticking with the Church on the matter.
I do understand people who think they know better than the Church on this. There are many Protestant pastors teaching otherwise on it - that you CAN expect a miracle, that God WILL heal your spouse even if your spouse doesn’t want it. But the Catholic Church is where the entire truth is deposited. I will stick with her!
J
joanofarc2008
Guest
In my case God did for me what I could not do for myself. My grandfather died. I went to the funeral over my xh’s strong objections and orders not to. I found out from my best friend everything he had been telling my family. He had basically been trying to have me committed so that he could get his hands on the money that I was being paid through VA disability. I had locked it in my own account after our first separation and subsequent restraining order. I was so upset that my best friend told me I could stay and never go back but I had to go back and fight for what was mine even in the poor medical condition I was in. He lasted less than 24 hours once the truth had been discovered. During that time he tried to tell me I did not have the right to say no to degrading sexual behavior and punched a wall so hard he caused his hand to bleed. He then left and moved in with one of his two gf’s. He would later cheat on her and impregnate the other. They were both married.
It was during this time that I found his psych records. Thank you God for pointing out to me how wrong it all was.
E
EvelynEVF
Guest
Thanks for sharing your stories.
I did not get over my internal resistance to separation and/or divorce until I had thoroughly researched annulments and realized that I had several different grounds for petitioning.
I had a totally wrong picture of who God was and what he wanted of me. I had to prove my worthiness by staying married even in the horror. Once I pretty much cracked and let go, a zillion little miracles happened. Someone I knew was willing to buy the perfect little house, the finding of which was a miracle. Then I was able to rent from her until I had a settlement, at which point I bought the house from her. Years ago, before I even acknowledged the awfulness, I had started saving large amounts of money in liquid form. I had more than enough to move out, furnish the house, and live until the settlement and child support came. And then right around the time I moved, someone from the old church contacted me and told me how her brother-in-law had been miraculously healed of mental illness, and wouldn’t I like to pray with her that then-husband would also be healed? I told her I had my miracles already. Plus, where the heck were all these divorce-haters before it became necessary??
Miracles upon miracles, but only after I gave up on doing it my way.
I did not get over my internal resistance to separation and/or divorce until I had thoroughly researched annulments and realized that I had several different grounds for petitioning.
I had a totally wrong picture of who God was and what he wanted of me. I had to prove my worthiness by staying married even in the horror. Once I pretty much cracked and let go, a zillion little miracles happened. Someone I knew was willing to buy the perfect little house, the finding of which was a miracle. Then I was able to rent from her until I had a settlement, at which point I bought the house from her. Years ago, before I even acknowledged the awfulness, I had started saving large amounts of money in liquid form. I had more than enough to move out, furnish the house, and live until the settlement and child support came. And then right around the time I moved, someone from the old church contacted me and told me how her brother-in-law had been miraculously healed of mental illness, and wouldn’t I like to pray with her that then-husband would also be healed? I told her I had my miracles already. Plus, where the heck were all these divorce-haters before it became necessary??
Miracles upon miracles, but only after I gave up on doing it my way.
J
joanofarc2008
Guest
My parents took me in for about nine months. All of a sudden xh fought the divorce - every nickel and dime - right up until he got the gf pregnant then he could no longer fight because in his business images count. He had to be divorced. It also helped that when other gf called and apologized I forgave her. She had pics. All of a sudden not because of anything I did but because of everything he was afraid of doors started being opened and I was able to recover some of the debt he had racked up. I was able to use my student loan check to get back on my feet and relocate off my parents couch. God does provide the miracles when we do it His way not ours.
O
Oh_Charlotte
Guest
Wow, Joan of Arc, what a story! Yes there is a lot of reasons why our good and holy Church grants annulments.
I am so grateful that it look like I can get one because of iinvalid form, and not even go though the tribunal. That is really what I need now. The man that I love, I really do feel I love him, that God led me to him, will be starting his annulment. We would not be able to marry for a couple years anyway. So i expect it to be a long process, and he will have to relive some pretty awful years. I cannot even think of how awful it will be if he is denied it, so i am not going to think of the worst. I will just pray him through the process. I think she was mentally ill from the start; she got her two kids immediately and then immersed herself in Lesbianism immediately. He was so tolerant at first, knowing he could not stop it, trying to keep the family together. But over exhausting time he really got to hate homosexuality. It all felt like a long nightmare to him. Maybe the process will help him heal from all that strife he went through for so very long.
I really didn’t think that God would have me marry again. At least I wanted to be completely open to the fact he may not want me to. And I know Heaven will make up for any lack on earth. But I received a deep spiritual healing in October, and met this man right after who had long been a friend by correspondence only. He also was resigned to a life of celibacy - had been 24 years! I appreciated having a friend in my life, a good male friend I respected, who had the same values aobut marriage, who wanted his life to please God no matter the cost. We both had talked about living in some sort of religious community someday (separate ones, obviously!).
But I had no idea I would react so strongly, when I met him, and be so drawn to him. I was upset with myself for feeling! But I felt God’s assurances it was okay. He needs healing, and I feel our relationship has begun to heal him already and will heal him steadily when we are together. I feel like he should not be alone. I feel that very strongly. I feel that God is leading me to be his companion. And as much as I was open to the nun idea, I actually think my natural strength is one-to-one. I just never had a chance to be that, even though it was my dream; my ex wanted space, not togetherness. So he needs to not be alone, I need/desire to relate one-to-one, it seems like such a gift.
So he is beginning his process. I urged him to soon, because want to get the cutting off over with if it gets denied. I cannot even imagine that, so I won’t. I will do what i did when i was finally blessed with pregnancy, which my ex had denied so long, I decided to expect a healthy baby; God would help me deal with it if it wasn’t when the time came. So also with this. I will expect things to continue to go as they seem - it seems God is leading us to be together. If the Church denies it, then God will help me then. But I won’t expect that. I will expect God to bless…
I am so grateful that it look like I can get one because of iinvalid form, and not even go though the tribunal. That is really what I need now. The man that I love, I really do feel I love him, that God led me to him, will be starting his annulment. We would not be able to marry for a couple years anyway. So i expect it to be a long process, and he will have to relive some pretty awful years. I cannot even think of how awful it will be if he is denied it, so i am not going to think of the worst. I will just pray him through the process. I think she was mentally ill from the start; she got her two kids immediately and then immersed herself in Lesbianism immediately. He was so tolerant at first, knowing he could not stop it, trying to keep the family together. But over exhausting time he really got to hate homosexuality. It all felt like a long nightmare to him. Maybe the process will help him heal from all that strife he went through for so very long.
I really didn’t think that God would have me marry again. At least I wanted to be completely open to the fact he may not want me to. And I know Heaven will make up for any lack on earth. But I received a deep spiritual healing in October, and met this man right after who had long been a friend by correspondence only. He also was resigned to a life of celibacy - had been 24 years! I appreciated having a friend in my life, a good male friend I respected, who had the same values aobut marriage, who wanted his life to please God no matter the cost. We both had talked about living in some sort of religious community someday (separate ones, obviously!).
But I had no idea I would react so strongly, when I met him, and be so drawn to him. I was upset with myself for feeling! But I felt God’s assurances it was okay. He needs healing, and I feel our relationship has begun to heal him already and will heal him steadily when we are together. I feel like he should not be alone. I feel that very strongly. I feel that God is leading me to be his companion. And as much as I was open to the nun idea, I actually think my natural strength is one-to-one. I just never had a chance to be that, even though it was my dream; my ex wanted space, not togetherness. So he needs to not be alone, I need/desire to relate one-to-one, it seems like such a gift.
So he is beginning his process. I urged him to soon, because want to get the cutting off over with if it gets denied. I cannot even imagine that, so I won’t. I will do what i did when i was finally blessed with pregnancy, which my ex had denied so long, I decided to expect a healthy baby; God would help me deal with it if it wasn’t when the time came. So also with this. I will expect things to continue to go as they seem - it seems God is leading us to be together. If the Church denies it, then God will help me then. But I won’t expect that. I will expect God to bless…
O
Oh_Charlotte
Guest
Evelyn, I enjoyed your story! It is lovely to see how God provides. He provided for me in unexpected ways, too. Things were quite tight though, my security feel through with the marriage, and I was forced to rely on God instead, and he showed me He could be trusted!
The man I really care for that I just mentioned, is not that financially stable. He has had a lot of loss. I am going to have to work alongside him to get things right, to where they should be. With all the financial difficulty I have had since the divorce, I thought I would instead have security if I happened to marry again. But I realize the one thing I did have in marriage was security, and everything else was bad, very bad. God showed me then that I can depend on Him. So I will take what I learned forward with me. I would rather have the right man, and depend on God to provide, God and living godly wise principles, then plenty of security like before, and a life barren of love and no one to love God with me…
You know, even if your husband is healed of his mental brokenness, it does not mean you would need to remarry him. I have thought about that, too, in the case of my ex and the man I care about’s ex. What if God healed them? well the fact is they entered a marriage as a broken person and lived out their vows in a a broken and ungodly way. Made a mess of it. If God healed them, they can now go forward as that new person. The past non-existent marriage is just that. A bad memory of the brokenness they once were.
F
FCGeorge
Guest
Hello Oh Charlotte, I hope you are well. First of all I truly appreciate your approach.
It has been several years now since my wife abandoned the marriage. I am quite comfortable talking about it… just not sure how much on an open-to-the-world forum. I ache for her. And my children who have this as a witness. An awesome inspiration occured to me at our Stations of the cross a couple of years ago. Jesus was beaten, spit on, ridiculed and mocked and as He was carrying His own cross He came upon some women who had so much compassion for Him that they wept for Him. His response, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.”
So many times, I think, we get in a tough marriage situation and quickly surround ourselves by those who will “weep for us.” They will reaffirm that we surely must divorce that wicked, evil spouse. And then the modern “catholic” will continue that we surely must also “get an annulment.” (Again, if you are being physically beaten or if your spouse is out sleeping around with another person then I am NOT saying stay and “take it”… I don’t understand how that is even loving your spouse.)
Perhaps we should simply carry our cross and weep for those around us. I have been very much inspired by our Blessed Lord’s response there.
I am willing to discuss where you believe the “error in logic” to be in the 8 things that I listed.
I am sorry that I have not made this clear enough. Absolutely, there are many, many, many relationships out there that the world calls “marriages” that are certainly not marriages in “God’s eyes.” Those who civilly divorced from a valid marriage, for example, and “remarried” someone else. I am not sure if there are more sands on the beaches of St. John or relationships on our earth that fit into this category. Also, “marriages” between two men, for example, may have the same characteristics you describe (wedding, shared life and intimacy) they are certainly not marriages in “God’s eyes.” Also, those who civilly divorced from truly valid marriages but “built a case” designed to achieve an end of “getting an annulment” rather than truly seeking whether or not their marriage was really valid, I am quite certain that the warning from the prophet Malachi will be heard again, “For the Lord is a witness between thee and the wife of thy youth.” The tribunals are not infallible. If I built a case designed for a particular outcome and the tribunal made a false judgment then I would be entering an adulterous marriage should I “marry” again. I can one day plead, “But, but, but the Church told me I was free to marry someone else.” Where was my heart? Was it seeking Truth or was it seeking the freedom to marry someone else?
Please, this is not an indictment of anyone on here. I do not know anyone’s heart and am not claiming to. I just pray that those who do petition for the Church to look into their marriage status do so with a heart that is sincerely seeking Truth.
May God bless you Oh Charlotte.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
F
FCGeorge
Guest
There are those who are not willing to “concede” to the practice of many of the fallible tribunals in the Church.
Two such men are our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI and the Blessed John Paul II.
Just because people question the practice of fallible tribunals does not mean that they are attacking the authority of the Church… unless Pope Benedict XVI and John Paul II were attacking the authority of the Church.
The references that In Spiration gave could not be more plain.
Many more can be found here…
marysadvocates.org/annulment/annulment.html
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
J
joanofarc2008
Guest
This is the error in your logic. These things are only indicators that there may have been an issue at the time of the marriage. They are not reasons for a decree of nullity. There may very well be a reason for a decree of nullity that you are unaware of due to the fact that you have not been open to looking at the process and answering the probably over 100 questions that make up the profile of what happenned at the time of the marriage. Until you are ready to get down to that nitty-gritty than you have truly not been ready to accept the will of God through His Bride, the Church, in how she does Her business through the Tribunal.
Here is an old thread from over a year ago when I started to list some of the questions that are used to help with the statements that are written for the Tribunal process. It is under my old user name. I hope you find that helpful.
F
FCGeorge
Guest
*Going back to the discussion of patron saints for modern causes, we’ll begin with St. Helen (249-329). Because she found the True Cross in Jerusalem, for many centuries devotion to St. Helen has been linked to devotion to the Holy Cross. It would be hard to find a painting, statue or holy card of her that does not depict her embracing the cross.
But there is another, sadder facet of Helen’s life. After 22 years of marriage, Helen’s husband, Constantius, divorced her in order to make a politically advantageous marriage with a young woman who was a member of Rome’s imperial family.
Clearly, St. Helen would be a natural choice as patron of divorced and divorcing people, so why has this devotion to her arisen only recently? For most of the 1,700 years since Helen’s death, divorce was rare, even among non-Catholics. Among Catholics it was almost unthinkable. Today, unfortunately, when divorce has become commonplace, St. Helen is offered to unhappy spouses as a heavenly patron who can truly sympathize with their anguish.*
Why didn’t St. Helen think, “Hmmm, it is obvious that no good Constantius and I were never validly married. If we were then he never would have thought it was okay to run off with that new “trophy wife” he was after.”
It isn’t by chance that St. Helen is the patron saint of abandoned spouses/divorced people.
Who is the first person in the nearly 2,000 year history of the Church who taught, “See, that sin your spouse committed is evidence you were never even married to begin with. Seek an annulment and no longer be faithful to her.” Where is this approach promoted in the first 1,500 years of the Church? There are many writings from many faithful Catholics to choose from. Obviously spouses were treated very horribly (St. Monica). Obviously spouses were abandoned (St. Helen.)
Who is the patron saint of the divorced who shows us this path?
I do take comfort in knowing that there have been saints who were treated poorly in marriage and even abandoned who chose to remain faithful to their spouses. I wonder if they had quickly been surrounded by modern catholics what they would have chosen.
From an article mercurynews.com/entertainment/ci_20080870
*“Maria is a devout Catholic and doesn’t believe in divorce, but is still struggling with the humiliation she endured by him.”
Shriver filed for divorce on July 1, about six weeks after news broke he fathered a child with a household servant, Mildred “Patty” Baena, 14 years earlier.
The former California governor has been pleaded his case that he’s a changed man. A mutual friend is working out business and financial conditions for the potential reconciliation.
Schwarzenegger, 64, and Shriver, 56, wed in April 1986, and have four kids. Well, together they have four. Schwarzenegger’s count is currently holding at five.
“He is promising the moon and telling Maria he has completely changed his ways,” another friend of the couple told the Post. “Maria’s friends are warning her to be careful, saying he’ll never change.”
“Arnold is desperate to win her back, mostly because he realizes he can’t live without her, and partly because he doesn’t have the political clout without her. Winning her back would be the best way to show the world he has been forgiven for his transgressions.”*
Notice how the friends become self proclaimed prophets. For they *know *that Arnie will never change. They even know with certainty his motive. Really? Is this direct revelation from God?
Why isn’t Maria going down the, “See, Arnie’s transgressions are proof that there really wasn’t a valid marriage. You should seek an annulment rather than be faithful to the vows that you spoke that were not made contingent to him keeping his vows… wait, I mean they *were *made contingent to him keeping his.”
Often times validly married people sin.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
But there is another, sadder facet of Helen’s life. After 22 years of marriage, Helen’s husband, Constantius, divorced her in order to make a politically advantageous marriage with a young woman who was a member of Rome’s imperial family.
Clearly, St. Helen would be a natural choice as patron of divorced and divorcing people, so why has this devotion to her arisen only recently? For most of the 1,700 years since Helen’s death, divorce was rare, even among non-Catholics. Among Catholics it was almost unthinkable. Today, unfortunately, when divorce has become commonplace, St. Helen is offered to unhappy spouses as a heavenly patron who can truly sympathize with their anguish.*
Why didn’t St. Helen think, “Hmmm, it is obvious that no good Constantius and I were never validly married. If we were then he never would have thought it was okay to run off with that new “trophy wife” he was after.”
It isn’t by chance that St. Helen is the patron saint of abandoned spouses/divorced people.
Who is the first person in the nearly 2,000 year history of the Church who taught, “See, that sin your spouse committed is evidence you were never even married to begin with. Seek an annulment and no longer be faithful to her.” Where is this approach promoted in the first 1,500 years of the Church? There are many writings from many faithful Catholics to choose from. Obviously spouses were treated very horribly (St. Monica). Obviously spouses were abandoned (St. Helen.)
Who is the patron saint of the divorced who shows us this path?
I do take comfort in knowing that there have been saints who were treated poorly in marriage and even abandoned who chose to remain faithful to their spouses. I wonder if they had quickly been surrounded by modern catholics what they would have chosen.
From an article mercurynews.com/entertainment/ci_20080870
*“Maria is a devout Catholic and doesn’t believe in divorce, but is still struggling with the humiliation she endured by him.”
Shriver filed for divorce on July 1, about six weeks after news broke he fathered a child with a household servant, Mildred “Patty” Baena, 14 years earlier.
The former California governor has been pleaded his case that he’s a changed man. A mutual friend is working out business and financial conditions for the potential reconciliation.
Schwarzenegger, 64, and Shriver, 56, wed in April 1986, and have four kids. Well, together they have four. Schwarzenegger’s count is currently holding at five.
“He is promising the moon and telling Maria he has completely changed his ways,” another friend of the couple told the Post. “Maria’s friends are warning her to be careful, saying he’ll never change.”
“Arnold is desperate to win her back, mostly because he realizes he can’t live without her, and partly because he doesn’t have the political clout without her. Winning her back would be the best way to show the world he has been forgiven for his transgressions.”*
Notice how the friends become self proclaimed prophets. For they *know *that Arnie will never change. They even know with certainty his motive. Really? Is this direct revelation from God?
Why isn’t Maria going down the, “See, Arnie’s transgressions are proof that there really wasn’t a valid marriage. You should seek an annulment rather than be faithful to the vows that you spoke that were not made contingent to him keeping his vows… wait, I mean they *were *made contingent to him keeping his.”
Often times validly married people sin.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
E
EvelynEVF
Guest
I wonder what our tribunal numbers would look like if all Catholics were required to submit to investigation upon divorcing (aside from the even worse overload/backlog, so I know this is only hypothetical).
IME, most people who ask for an investigation have been divorced for quite a while and both parties are in new relationships. Somebody wants to remarry, and they are on reasonably good terms with each other, wanting to get on with life, so nobody contests and it goes through quickly.
What if people were required to do the investigation immediately, when still angry, so that the offended spouse would be more likely to contest, and to provide witnesses and testimony in favor of a valid bond? I suppose this would be playing on the desire for revenge, and that wouldn’t be so good. But still, consequences should come shortly after the offense, not years later.
I guess I only see people who are practically engaged before they petition, who want permission to marry more than any pursuit of truth, as if it’s just another hoop to jump through. And I’ve had people IRL approach me and tell me that they have helped people “get annulments” and can tell me what key words I need to say to convince the tribunal. No, thanks.
I’m not thinking of any poster here as I write this, or any situations except what I’ve seen IRL. I’m going off the cuff more than usual, and I apologize if this is upsetting to anyone in a tough situation. Remember, I’m in a tough one, too, and I don’t ever want to kick anyone who is already down!
IME, most people who ask for an investigation have been divorced for quite a while and both parties are in new relationships. Somebody wants to remarry, and they are on reasonably good terms with each other, wanting to get on with life, so nobody contests and it goes through quickly.
What if people were required to do the investigation immediately, when still angry, so that the offended spouse would be more likely to contest, and to provide witnesses and testimony in favor of a valid bond? I suppose this would be playing on the desire for revenge, and that wouldn’t be so good. But still, consequences should come shortly after the offense, not years later.
I guess I only see people who are practically engaged before they petition, who want permission to marry more than any pursuit of truth, as if it’s just another hoop to jump through. And I’ve had people IRL approach me and tell me that they have helped people “get annulments” and can tell me what key words I need to say to convince the tribunal. No, thanks.
I’m not thinking of any poster here as I write this, or any situations except what I’ve seen IRL. I’m going off the cuff more than usual, and I apologize if this is upsetting to anyone in a tough situation. Remember, I’m in a tough one, too, and I don’t ever want to kick anyone who is already down!
J
joanofarc2008
Guest
Or even better if couples were allowed to go through the process on the promise that if their marriage were found invalid they would either divorce or go through the work of convalidation.
We have already explained to this multiple times in other threads. It is the difference between virtue and heroic virtue. What Saint Monica displayed was heroic virtue and not everyone is called to it - that is why she is a Canonized Saint. To assume that everyone is called to this is the sin of pride.
When it is said that everyone is called to be a saint that is with a lower case “s” meaning to live a virtuous life and get into Heaven. One can do this without being called to heroic virtue. Again the important thing is discerning one’s Call from God and not taking one’s pride into his/her own hands and becoming a martyr for a cause that is not God’s.
Since it has already been explained to you multiple times including by a member of the clergy your argument is a strawman argument.
H
hurting
Guest
Exactly. This approach belies the pastoral nature of the annulment mentality as opposed to a search for truth.
H
hurting
Guest
Article on EWTN regarding annulment mentality in general…
ewtn.com/library/marriage/annul.txt
The author makes a pretty good argument about the tendency to view marriages as falling into only two categories: good or invalid, and failing to recoognize not all “bad” marriages are invalid.
ewtn.com/library/marriage/annul.txt
The author makes a pretty good argument about the tendency to view marriages as falling into only two categories: good or invalid, and failing to recoognize not all “bad” marriages are invalid.
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