For Thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory

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In all the Novus Ordo masses that I have attended, the people (led by the priest and clasping hands, of course) concatenate “For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory now and forever” to the end of the Our Father.

Where did this strange innovation come from? Is it a licit part of the Mass or did it just come in through the back door on its own (like the clasping of hands)?
 
lepanto said:
In all the Novus Ordo masses that I have attended, the people (led by the priest and clasping hands, of course) concatenate “For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory now and forever” to the end of the Our Father.

Where did this strange innovation come from? Is it a licit part of the Mass or did it just come in through the back door on its own (like the clasping of hands)?
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If you look at the Order of the Mass, you will see that it is part of the Communion Rite, to be said after the prayer the Priest makes following the Our Father.

I’m confused as to what you’re asking specifically. If you are asking where did the doxology of the Our Father, the, “for thine is the kingdom and power…” I believe it originally came from the Didache, which instructs them (see ch. 8) to pray it thus three times a day, with this appended on, “for Yours is the power and glory forever.”

I believe that manuscripts of Matthew often had the final doxology appended on the end, but scholars believe that it was a latter addition. For this reason it is omitted from most Bibles.

Read about the final doxology in the Catechism. And also here.

**2760 **Very early on, liturgical usage concluded the Lord’s Prayer with a doxology. In the Didache, we find, "For yours are the power and the glory for ever."4 The Apostolic Constitutions add to the beginning: “the kingdom,” and this is the formula retained to our day in ecumenical prayer.5 The Byzantine tradition adds after “the glory” the words “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” The Roman Missal develops the last petition in the explicit perspective of “awaiting our blessed hope” and of the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.6 Then comes the assembly’s acclamation or the repetition of the doxology from the Apostolic Constitutions.

-Rob
 
According to Fr Stravinskas this doxology comes from 1 Chronicles 29:11—

11 Thine, O Lord, is magnificence, and power, and glory, and victory: and to thee is praise: for all that is in heaven, and in earth, is thine: thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art above all princes.

—from the Douay-Rheims version.
 
The doxology is part of the Eastern Divine Liturgy. It is said by the priest after the Lord’s Prayer is recited.
The priest exclaims: And vouchsafe, O Master, that with boldness and without condemnation we may dare to call upon thee, the heavenly God and Father, and to say:
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People: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
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The Priest: For thine is the kingdom, and the power and the glory, of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.
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Choir: Amen.
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It has been there since at least St. John Chrysostom complied the current Byzantine Missal and probably earlier (as mentioned in the Didache). To the Byzantines, this is NOT part of the Lord’s Prayer, but rather simply the priest’s response to the faithful’s exclaimation of the prayer.

What is really interesting is that at some point in the 10-12th centuries, an Eastern Monk copied that doxology into the margins of the Gospel next to the Lord’s Prayer.

Subsequent Protestant translators assumed it was part of the text and added it to Protestant Bibles :rolleyes: So Protestants have unknowningly added part of the Eastern Mass into their version of Scripture as Matthew 6:13 😛
 
The reply above that references the error by the scribe is my recollection…and since it’s in the King James Bible, protestant denominations that favor that translation consider it part of the Lord’s Prayer (but Catholics, east or west, do not).
 
hi

i’m a Catholic in Pakistan, I have lived here and in Bahrain (Arabian Gulf) for all my life, as far as our practice the phrase being discussed is the reponse of the people after the Our Father when the priest prays:
“Protect us O Lord from all anxiety and keep us free from sin as we wait in joyful anticipation for your coming” not sure abt the exact prayer but after this the congregation says along with the priest “For the kingdom the power and the glory are yours now and forever”

hope this is of help, as for Protestants in their Bibles based on the KJV they have added this as part of the Our Father as taught by Jesus.

The Our Father is known as the Greater Doxology and this phrase as the Lesser one. In some ancient sources there is the Our Father with this phrase at its end.
 
Isn’t it kind of superfluous? The Lord’s Prayer doesn’t repeat itself, as our Lord tells us not to expect to be heard because of our many words like the pagans, but that our prayers are heard because of our Father’s mercy.

If we pray “Hallowed be thy name” we’re saying that His name is glorious.

If we pray “Thy kingdom come” we’re saying that the kingdom is His.

If we pray the Lord’s Prayer at all, we’re acknowledging that power, power to bring His kingdom on earth, power to forgive us, to provide for us, and to deliver us from evil, is His.

Not that there’s anything wrong with this ending at all.
 
When appended to the Lord’s Prayer as recorded in the gospel, it completes a chiastic pattern. Without it the pattern is incomplete. It is highly unlikely that Jesus would have constructed the prayer as an incomplete chiasmus. How it was lost in the version found in the gospels is anyone’s guess. It is a good idea to put it back on for that reason.

For more on the chiastic patterns in scripture see the writings of John Bligh SJ who taught theology at the university when I was there.

Matthew
 
lepanto said:
In all the Novus Ordo masses that I have attended, the people (led by the priest and clasping hands, of course) concatenate “For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory now and forever” to the end of the Our Father.

Where did this strange innovation come from? Is it a licit part of the Mass or did it just come in through the back door on its own (like the clasping of hands)?
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The correct words the people should sing or say are: “For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours, now and forever.”
(Roman Missal, Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, 1985, page 562). This is the translation that is approved at present, at least in Australia and the USA.

The 2002 GIRM has a different translation, but it should not be used yet. From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“153. After the Lord’s Prayer is concluded, the priest alone, with hands extended, says the embolism Libera nos (Deliver us). At the end, the people make the acclamation Quia tuum est regnum (For yours is the kingdom).”
 
yup,
see that’s what I said!!
For the kingdom the power and the glory are yours…!!
 
I posed this question long ago but I think it got lost in the great forum crash so I can’t retrieve it for review…

During the Mass, at the end of the Our Father, the Priest says “…deliver us Lord from every evil and grant us peace in our day…”

After this, the people respond “For thine is the kingdom and the power…” I understand this to be part of that prayer, not part of the Our Father. Jesus ended the Our Father with “…deliver us from evil”

Question: Where does that prayer come from? Is it a response to the Lord’s prayer by the early church fathers or is it a Jewish prayer?

Can someone fill in the blanks for me?
Thanks.
 
[SIGN]MY 10,000th POST![/SIGN]That’s an easy nugget.

That doxology is actually from an verifiably very early (maybe even New Testament!) Christian document called The Didache (or DOCTRINE OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES)
newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
Chapter 8.—Concerning Fasting and Prayer (the Lord’s Prayer)
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  1. But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites; Matthew 6:16 for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week; but do ye fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). 2. Neither pray as the hypocrites; but as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, thus pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Yours is the power and the glory for ever. 3. Thrice in the day thus pray.
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That doxology is not in the original Greek text and in fact, the KJV Bible is about the only version that somehow let it get into the text of Matthew 6:13: And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
 
[SIGN]Congrats on your 10,000 post![/SIGN]

Thanks Church Militant. But where does this come in … “Deliver us Lord from every evil and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour, Jesus Christ”

I thought (from my original post pre-crash) that “For thine is the kingdom…” was the response to the “Deliver us Lord…” above.

Thus, when protestants say it after the Our Father, it is a nod to their Catholic roots.

Again, just going from memory.

:confused:
 
Little_Mary said:
[sign]
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Congrats on your 10,000 post![/sign]

Thanks Church Militant. But where does this come in … “Deliver us Lord from every evil and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour, Jesus Christ”

I thought (from my original post pre-crash) that “For thine is the kingdom…” was the response to the “Deliver us Lord…” above.

Thus, when protestants say it after the Our Father, it is a nod to their Catholic roots.

Again, just going from memory.

:confused::hmmm: I’ve never heard anything about that part of the liturgy.

Did it occur to you to get the Mods to move this over to Liturgy and Sacraments where someone might actually be able to answer?
Just a suggestion…
(Oh and thanks!)
 
Deliver us Lord from every evil and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our saviour Jesus Christ. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever Amen.

[SIGN]Where does this come from?[/SIGN]
 
Little_Mary said:
Deliver us Lord from every evil and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our saviour Jesus Christ. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever Amen.

[SIGN]Where does this come from?[/SIGN]
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You may be interested in this article from the Catholic Encyclopedia. This prayer is called the “Libera Nos” in the TLM.
 
lak611 said:
You may be interested in this article from the Catholic Encyclopedia. This prayer is called the “Libera Nos” in the TLM.
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Thanks. If I understood that correctly, this Libera Nos is inserted immediately after the Our Father and the words “For Thine is the kingdom…” is part of it. It was adopted early on, in Constantinople, to be said during Mass.

Did I get that right?🙂
 
drafdog said:
When appended to the Lord’s Prayer as recorded in the gospel, it completes a chiastic pattern. Without it the pattern is incomplete. It is highly unlikely that Jesus would have constructed the prayer as an incomplete chiasmus. How it was lost in the version found in the gospels is anyone’s guess. It is a good idea to put it back on for that reason.

For more on the chiastic patterns in scripture see the writings of John Bligh SJ who taught theology at the university when I was there.

Matthew
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So, off topic, but did you study the chiastic parallelism of John’s Gospel? And what do you make of it?
 
Brendan said:
The doxology is part of the Eastern Divine Liturgy. It is said by the priest after the Lord’s Prayer is recited.

It has been there since at least St. John Chrysostom complied the current Byzantine Missal and probably earlier (as mentioned in the Didache). To the Byzantines, this is NOT part of the Lord’s Prayer, but rather simply the priest’s response to the faithful’s exclaimation of the prayer.

What is really interesting is that at some point in the 10-12th centuries, an Eastern Monk copied that doxology into the margins of the Gospel next to the Lord’s Prayer.

Subsequent Protestant translators assumed it was part of the text and added it to Protestant Bibles :rolleyes: So Protestants have unknowningly added part of the Eastern Mass into their version of Scripture as Matthew 6:13 😛
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This is interesting because when I was young we didn’t say all that at the end of the Lord’s prayer at the Latin mass, but when I went to Protestant Churches they did so I thought we took it from them.
The priest did say a response but it was much shorter.
 
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