For those who believe homosexuals can change their orientation....

[francisca]

Hi Dakota,

In the field of embryology, it is rather risky to make a definitive statement and expect it to last by the following day… New developments are always popping up - and some research findings contradict previous ones … so still more research is needed.

Just because some thing is, “…noticable by age two…” does not mean it was not present at conception and is just now being ‘noticed’. In reality, as a group, we tend to need to be told where to look before we actually see what was there all the time! Just because we do not ‘notice’ a human at conception does not mean the fertilized egg is not human - and this is a very important point that our Supreme Court has yet to grasp.

Thankyou for explaining this more clearly: how some “new development in scientific research” many times they are just “noticable” and potentially useful information for further research, not necessarily final answer to hipothesis or even answer to speculation as in popular public opinion/ popular science.

Sometimes “new development” being exposed in the media get more popular (public) attention than “mature scientific findings”, because the latter belong to “textbooks” and do not get media exposure anymore. The imbalance media exposure sometimes create unfounded public opinion plus the fact that such can be used to push forward some agenda by some (scientific/ non-scientific) groups.

Still I think that in the end, I believe, none can runnaway from the truth.

I think that popular media should be held responsible when suddenly they make additional statement such as “this (the new development in research) may mean that homosexuality are inborn”, when in fact the research itself does not really reflect such conclusion.

Thankyou for your post and may God bless you tqualey.

 

[francisca]

the results shown from the studies of cabbies is actually a case of science confirming the obvious, when you rely heavily on memory the parts of your brain involved in that forge more connections. In what I’ve been talking about the cells are smaller and more numerous just like in women. If this were caused by actions scientists would be overjoyed because that means they could reverse engineer it to create a cure for Alzheimer’s…

Your statements above shows that you know nothing about methodical scientific research. You do not draw conclusion just like that. That is your own opinion, none scientific about it.

Tqualey did not debate your opinion either. The research itself only reflect an information about “adult homosexual brain symmetry and similarity with opposite heterosexual gender”. It does not reflect ANY information whether such was the result of them being homosexual, neither it reflect ANY information whether the brain is the cause of their homosexuality.

 

[francisca]

continue…

However, the other studies (about cab drivers and alcoholism) indicate that the previous one is more likely: that is to say that their brain become as such as the result of their homosexuality, and probably not the cause. This is supported by similar facts found in other studies.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Dakota,

It would be best to clearly identify while it is impossible to totally separate the scientist from every possible bias - when it comes to the popular press who do all they can to advance an agenda, some scientists actually do try and advance their own agenda. Yes, this is a serious breach on intellectual honesty and focused deceit upon a somewhat naive scientific community (these professionals are not used to being lied to by other professionals!) When the discovery is made - everyone has egg on their face, innocent scientists who accepted the lie have a lot to explain (being duped just not look for the PhD/MD types who are the ones who do the most research.

Let’s look at real life example - not in any way related to homosexuals … but to demonstrate that such fraud really does exist in the scientific community. Oh, and I am not trying to hijack the thread… There are a group of people who, for various reasons, do not want to vaccinated against preventable diseases. Well, imagine the sheer joy they found when certian immunizations were directly linked to ADHD! So, here we have a well established bias (anit-immunization groups) and some data that there really are some kids who do have ADHD and no one thought they had this before the immunization - so, QED - we have a cause and effect relationship. And there was a previously well respected researcher who played this game of fraud! Here is the link: sciencefriday.com/blog/2011/01/the-great-autism-vaccine-fraud/

Just be very careful about not getting drawn into the bogus science that says, “I can’t help myself!” We all have a free will - and that means that alcoholics who want to maintain sobriety today - may have to work on it harder today than yesterday - but, it is still within their grasp!

God bless

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome actually bolsters claims that fetal hormones have a major impact on sexuality. Complete Androgen Insensitivity results in people who are XY genotype yet phenotypically female. Indeed in the case of CAIS nearly all of them have “heterosexual” attraction and fantasies,

the results shown from the studies of cabbies is actually a case of science confirming the obvious, when you rely heavily on memory the parts of your brain involved in that forge more connections. In what I’ve been talking about the cells are smaller and more numerous just like in women. If this were caused by actions scientists would be overjoyed because that means they could reverse engineer it to create a cure for Alzheimer’s…

 

[RobbyS]

The Church in the CCC 2357 uses the word “homosexuality” to refer to sexual acts which it calls intrinsically disordered. In 2358 it refers to the inclination (Latin “propensio”) as being “objectively disordered” In 2359 The Church states that homosexual persons are called to chastity. it goes on to say that by prayer and sacramental grace they can reach Christian perfection.

You will note that there is no mention anywhere of the need for psychotherapy. I readily admit that I have used the term “orientation: in the popular and psychological sense; the Church clearly prefers 'Inclination”, and I should have stuck with the latter term. At the same time, the Church has nowhere condemned the use of the term orientation.

As to the APA: It is obvious from the above that the Church does not endorse the APA position that homosexual acts are morally permissible, but neither does the Church make any comment about the use of the term orientation.

Francisca, I appreciate the fact that you feel that those with homosexual inclinations should undergo therapy. You have a right to your opinion; it’s simply not the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, and as this is a public forum to which people come who may want to know the official position of the Church, it is necessary to clarify this.

The Church’s position is a statement of fact. It is a fact based on the Church’s view of mankind. We are born sinners, born all of us with certain weaknesses. Some Christians have a darker view of these weaknesses, others lighter. What bothers me most about the homosexual activists is they deny the sinfulness of what Christian have always thought of as sin. But what more do we know about homosexuality than we did fifty years ago? And where do they get the idea that traditional Christian doctrine is wrong? Only by making a false analogy with racial prejudice and slavery and reinterpreting Scripture by the illumination of the fires of political passion.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Hadrianus,

I am not entirely sure what your real point is here… maybe just age catching up with me…

Now, when it comes to the APA - it really should be noted that prior to 1978, homosexuality was considered to be the intrinsic disorder we know it be today. Can you imagine what would happen had they decided that alcoholism is not really the problem that everyone else thinks it is. The APA, like so many other groups … had an agenda… and it was not for these individuals to get treatment: cross-currents.com/archives/2009/08/11/gaily-fighting-religion/

All we can honestly hope for is that pedophelia is just seen as a misunderstanding.

Wondering about psychotherapy from this group may honestly be counter-productive.

God bless

The Church in the CCC 2357 uses the word “homosexuality” to refer to sexual acts which it calls intrinsically disordered. In 2358 it refers to the inclination (Latin “propensio”) as being “objectively disordered” In 2359 The Church states that homosexual persons are called to chastity. it goes on to say that by prayer and sacramental grace they can reach Christian perfection.

You will note that there is no mention anywhere of the need for psychotherapy. I readily admit that I have used the term “orientation: in the popular and psychological sense; the Church clearly prefers 'Inclination”, and I should have stuck with the latter term. At the same time, the Church has nowhere condemned the use of the term orientation.

As to the APA: It is obvious from the above that the Church does not endorse the APA position that homosexual acts are morally permissible, but neither does the Church make any comment about the use of the term orientation.

Francisca, I appreciate the fact that you feel that those with homosexual inclinations should undergo therapy. You have a right to your opinion; it’s simply not the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, and as this is a public forum to which people come who may want to know the official position of the Church, it is necessary to clarify this.

 

[Hadrianus]

Since you have asked, my point was not to defend the APA, but merely to make clear that the Church is concerned with people leading holy and chaste lives, and thus puts no pressure upon those who possess homosexual inclinations to undergo therapy. In this discussion there strike me as being two extreme positions. One claims that homosexual activity is perfectly normal, while the other considers that even chaste and pious homosexuals are so flawed that they require therapy whether they desire it or not.

The cause of the homosexual inclination remains largely unknown as the Catechism says. and it is largely pointless to debate something about which there is no scientific consensus.

When discussing mental illness, and with all the stigma attached thereto, extreme caution should be employed. A mere temptation to a particular sin is not a mental illness; though of course, if it results in acts and especially compulsive ones it could develop into one.

 

[Hadrianus]

PS The analogy with alcoholism doesn’t hold up very well, because alcoholism is a behavior. That said, it does seem that certain people are genetically predisposed towards it and must be extremely careful to avoid temptation. In the same way one can say that thpse who become addicted to homosexuality are engaging in a behavior and like alcoholics can benefit from treatment. The same could be said for sex addicts generally.

 

[Big_Dummy]

How do you explain celibate gay Catholics?

I guess the same way one explain explain celibate straight people. Gal 5

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Hadrianus,

What I meant in my comment on alcoholism is that it is a behavior that is identified as a mental illness by the APA. I have no real idea what medical evidence motivated APA to drop homsexuality as a mental disease - and what this tells me is that any currently recognized mental illness could simply be dropped for some politically correc reason.

God bless

PS The analogy with alcoholism doesn’t hold up very well, because alcoholism is a behavior. That said, it does seem that certain people are genetically predisposed towards it and must be extremely careful to avoid temptation. In the same way one can say that thpse who become addicted to homosexuality are engaging in a behavior and like alcoholics can benefit from treatment. The same could be said for sex addicts generally.

 

[Hadrianus]

One would have to look into the APA study, but I believe one of the arguments was based upon the fact that there is no mental illness test which can be employed to detect homosexuality. That is to say that homosexuals pass the same sort of tests the heterosexuals do when these are used to evaluate mental illness. Alcoholics on the other hand do reveal significant brain impairment.

I don’t think any serious psychologist or neurobiologist would claim to have found the cause of homosexual inclinations. This is an area which requires much further research and a fully satisfactory answer may never be found. The popular press is another matter. Journalists delight in dramatic headlines.

When the Church speaks of the morality of an action the remote psychological or physiological cause is not relevant. It is in the nature of concupiscence for sexual desires to be disordered–masturbation is an example of this—and these behaviors are the result of the fallen human condition which can only be rectified by divine grace.

 

[followingtheway]

I guess the same way one explain explain celibate straight people. Gal 5

Again, this was aimed at people who believe that people who CAN CHANGE their orientation.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Followingtheway,

A lot has been made of ‘orientation’ as though it were a predeterminate. Actually, it seems to border on a type of fatalism - with something like, “As I am oriented so do I act” or something like that. But, you know, in the various ‘gay pride’ events that attempt to celebrate their so-called acting out of their ‘orientation’ I see just total abandon to license.

For example, if there was a ‘straight pride’ event - and all the heterosexuals were actively advocating things like copulation = love and all of this should be celebrated with as many people as possible … you would wind up with basically the same thing: sin. Both groups will have simply given into their ‘orientation’ and debased their bodies in the futile attempt to find fulfillment via hedonism.

While people have multiple differences and various ‘orientations’ (e.g., I am ‘oriented’ as a ‘right-hander’ while half of my in-laws are 'left-handers… my wife is a right-hander and so are my two children and four grandchildren - so, here is a trait that - so far - has not been expressed.) we all have free will. And, this is really where the action is - not in ‘orientation’ or ‘change’ - but rather, how do I freely chose to express my beliefs through my behavior? Do I act according to the teachings of the Catholic Church or not?

God bless

Again, this was aimed at people who believe that people who CAN CHANGE their orientation.

 

[francisca]

While people have multiple differences and various ‘orientations’ (e.g., I am ‘oriented’ as a ‘right-hander’ while half of my in-laws are 'left-handers… my wife is a right-hander and so are my two children and four grandchildren - so, here is a trait that - so far - has not been expressed.)
we all have free will. And, this is really where the action is - not in ‘orientation’ or ‘change’ - but rather, how do I freely chose to express my beliefs through my behavior? Do I act according to the teachings of the Catholic Church or not?

tqualey,

I add “bold” and “underline” to your post above.

The church only recognize one type of ordered sexuality (heterosexuality). Left hander and right hander analogy (a trait that has hot been expressed), this analogy strongly suggest sexual orientation, as if homosexuality (trait) equivalent/ equal heteroexuality (trait).

Moreover by using the word “trait” you are actually agree with the concept of “fatalism” you are trying to deny in your own first paragraph in your post.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Francisca,

What I meant to say, and did not say too well…, was that no matter what someone’s orientation is - we all have free will and are responsible for our actions. That was it.

On another matter, I just received some information that addresses those who use the argument that there is no harm to society for what individuals chose to do. This type of delusional thinking is leading to major problems both now and into the forseeable future. The really interesting part appears at the end with the link.

God bless

Tom

Here’s a simple formula for understanding Demographic Winter: Those who have faith in
the future have children. Those who don’t, don’t. Where does faith in the future come
from? It comes from faith.

The pro-life position is based on the premise that each life, born and pre-born, is
infinitely precious. How often have we heard the catch-phrase “the children are our
future.” To put it another way, without children, there is no future?

Once people truly understand this, perhaps they’ll stop aborting their children. Perhaps
they’ll stop preventing conception. Perhaps they’ll start having large families again.
Perhaps they’ll give children the love they need and deserve. If humanity is to have a
future, this is where it starts.

See the Demographic Winter website at demographicwinter.com/index.html

tqualey,

I add “bold” and “underline” to your post above.

The church only recognize one type of ordered sexuality (heterosexuality). Left hander and right hander analogy (a trait that has hot been expressed), this analogy strongly suggest sexual orientation, as if homosexuality (trait) equivalent/ equal heteroexuality (trait).

Moreover by using the word “trait” you are actually agree with the concept of “fatalism” you are trying to deny in your own first paragraph in your post.

 

[francisca]

When the Church speaks of the morality of an action the remote psychological or physiological cause is not relevant. It is in the nature of concupiscence for sexual desires to be disordered–masturbation is an example of this—and these behaviors are the result of the fallen human condition which can only be rectified by divine grace.

The church speaks about homosexuality being “disordered toward natural law”. This “natural law” includes all aspects of nature in the word “disordered”. Thus the term intersects science area and has its implication in the aspects of nature of human sexuality.

We can’t completely separate morality from science, so as to say your above statement as if morality has nothing to do with science.

 

[francisca]

Again, this was aimed at people who believe that people who CAN CHANGE their orientation.

Again, the church do not see homosexuality as “one of the orientations”. It sees homosexuality as disordered sexuality.

Celibacy is one option one may choose to do when he/ she has the disordered condition, in order to maintain good morality.

As with disordered condition, the church pray for their healing, restoration, revival.

The church also allow people with disordered condition to receive treatment if they feel they need to.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

The church speaks about homosexuality being “disordered toward natural law”. This “natural law” includes all aspects of nature in the word “disordered”. Thus the term intersects science area and has its implication in the aspects of nature of human sexuality.

We can’t completely separate morality from science, so as to say your above statement as if morality has nothing to do with science.

As has been explained previously (cf #176) the word “disordered” as used in the Catechisms does not mean the same in vernacular as it does in the Catechisms, in the vernacular it is closer to imbalance which is not the same as a psychological disorder.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Dakota,

OK, I guess I missed your point here. What is it you are saying … that something can’t be both a natural / moral disorder and a psychological disorder, too?

From my observations, many of the people who are demonstrating for total revision of laws aganst homosexual behavior have profoundly unrealistic views of themselves and of others. Fortunately, much of is treatable by psychiatrists… just like chemical dependence disorders are treatable.

God bless

As has been explained previously (cf #176) the word “disordered” as used in the Catechisms does not mean the same in vernacular as it does in the Catechisms, in the vernacular it is closer to imbalance which is not the same as a psychological disorder.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Hi, Dakota,

OK, I guess I missed your point here. What is it you are saying … that something can’t be both a natural / moral disorder and a psychological disorder, too?

From my observations, many of the people who are demonstrating for total revision of laws aganst homosexual behavior have profoundly unrealistic views of themselves and of others. Fortunately, much of is treatable by psychiatrists… just like chemical dependence disorders are treatable.

God bless

No, I’m saying that specifically in paragraphs 2357 and 2358 that it is not the same, inordinata is also used when referring to lust, masturbation and divorce none of which are mental disorders