I am referring to those who try to justify condoning homosexual acts by suggesting that homosexuals can not control themselves and it is wrong to punish people for things they can not control thus they should not be punished.
Thank you for this paragraph, because it’s perfect. One could easily use their “orientation” as a means for excusing behavior. I don’t doubt that for a second because I have seen it.
This.
Kolbe,
But, we do have a couple of issues to work out… so, let’s get started.Let me start off by saying that this is a very complex issue and I really do not have the answer. But I think I can share some thoughts and maybe this will be helpful
In fact, in roughly 1:500-600 male births there is a genetic condition that presents as “XXY” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter’s_syndrome. And the gals 1:2000 births have “XO” called Turner’s Syndrome en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner%27s_syndrome These are real challenges, and while they can be diagnoses, there is no cure… But, please note, there are other birth defects that are are out there, too - but, they do not prevent a person from loving themselves as God made each one in His Own Image.Many young people of our time being exposed too early with wrong information about sex. It is not their fault. Yet sinful society has done something to our generation and (hopefully not) the future ganerations to come. Bad things-- despite not of our own fault-- sometimes do happen.
I’d give you a few verses from the bible.
The key word here is “become.” This is a tense of the intransitive verb “be” (obviously), which always links the subject with the verb. The Church does not say that the subject (the person) has “become” “bad.” That would identify the person with evil.
I’m glad you were able to identify with what I posted. You are certainly not alone! Rarely do we see the words “I agree” on CAF, so that’s nice.
Tqualey, while I really appreciate your post, I think you may have missed the intent of mine. I am not beating myself for* anything *I find within myself (including my sexuality). My desire is for Catholics to change their approach with homosexual persons. Namely - stop beating up their sexuality, because that technique doesn’t work. (Cue the knee-jerk “we can’t condone sin” responses.)
Again, I really do appreciate your compassion. But I don’t have any issues with Christ’s Church. I’ve never felt hated by the Church. My problem is with some of the members of that Church (and their techniques). Huge difference.
Thanks to you too, Francisca. Again, though, I don’t have issues with Church teaching. I think this is why this form of communication (forum) just doesn’t work. It’s a ballgame of words and most of us aren’t even on the same field let alone playing in the same game.
I agree, the Church doesn’t say that. The same cannot be said for all the people in the Church.
True. And just because you can’t successfully analyze and locate their origin doesn’t mean they weren’t part of your creation.
Very true. And sexuality is a definitive piece of the puzzle that makes a human being a human being, ordered or not. It is a part of what makes a person who they are. It is not a person’s identity, but it’s an important part of it.
While it is not considered “the essence” of a person, the Catechism makes it clear that our sexuality is intergral to the wholeness of the human person. And that is the crux of my disagreements with many people here. I don’t see my sexuality as disordered at all. I see it as ordered towards a different form of expression, one no less beautiful than a sexuality ordered towards marriage. It is ordered towards a fulfillment of love through service to the least of those around us. That’s a beautiful thing, and my sexuality is a part of that beauty because it is part of who I am.
Hi, tqualey. Any chance you could share with me how you believe I could have “avoided” my “disorder”? Doing so in a private message would be fine so as to not divert the thread.
As you know, Kolbe300, the Catholic Church is a church of sinners - and each of us fail to follow Christ in a variety of ways - and, not treating others with dignity and respect is a big area of concern. I, too, would encourage a genuine Christ-like love for all sinners. After all, we are all in that same boat!
There is nothing that I am aware of that would allow for such a response: homosexual behavior is always disordered and objectively grave matter You will undoubtedly recall what Christ told the woman caught in adultery (John 7:53-58) - and, it isn’t something like, “It’s OK, it’s your nature making you do this!” or “Hey, go ahead, it’s a living!”Because I identified those tendencies as disordered, by definition they were not created by God. That is directly opposed to Catholic philosophy and theology. God does not create our disorders.
What you are describing is a transforming re-ordering of your sexuality. (Sounds like it, to me.)
It looks like you went to great lenghts to distinguish between the Catholic Church as God’s Church and some of its members who hate you. And, I agree with you on this - there really is a huge difference. But, we really can not stop there.
You entirely missed his point, he isn’t asking for homosexual acts to be condoned at all, he isn’t contesting that homosexual acts are disordered. He was spot on with his “Cue the knee-jerk “we can’t condone sin” responses” statement.Hi, Kolbe300
Glad to hear you are not beating yourself up!
You touched on something quite interesting (at least to me…) and, I would appreciate your comment on this…
As you know, Kolbe300, the Catholic Church is a church of sinners - and each of us fail to follow Christ in a variety of ways - and, not treating others with dignity and respect is a big area of concern. I, too, would encourage a genuine Christ-like love for all sinners. After all, we are all in that same boat!
But, this quip about the ‘knee-jerk’ response needs to be examined. Please do not expect anything like, “Love the sinner and love the sin!”
Having feelings toward doing something morally wrong is just a temptation… and we all get temptations all the time about breaking every Law of God - every minute of the day! Such experiences are the lot of humanity since our First Parents decided to use their individual free wills and violate God’s command. Failing to cooperate with God’s Grace is simply giving in to those temptations - and, this is an entirely different matter. Here is an area where sin is possible in thought, word and/or deed.
Now, concerning your question on ‘avoiding your disorder’ … the Church has identified homosexual behavior as disorder. Heterosexuals can’t have sex with every membrer of the opposite sex they see - and some do! And, yes that is also a disorder! The really great idea is that God tells us that His Grace is enough (2Cor 12:9). Our work is to cooperate with His Grace to live a chaste life every day of our lives. There is no short-cut or ‘easy path’ to take in this matter.
But, you know, you have people on CAF that are praying for everyone on this thread - and, I think that can be encouraging news. You are not alone.
God bless
:banghead: That’s not what he’s saying at all
While God quite obviously made our souls what makes you think he specifically made our bodies as opposed to them being made by natural processes.
Hi, Kolbe300,
I have been re-reading your post, and I must admit I am a bit confused by some items - and if you would be so kind as to clarify them, I would appreciate it. Thanks
It looks like you went to great lenghts to distinguish between the Catholic Church as God’s Church and some of its members who hate you. And, I agree with you on this - there really is a huge difference. But, we really can not stop there.
Part of the teaching of the Catholic Church is that homosexual behavior is inherently disordered - and you are deny this. And, I have been thinking about this apparent contradiction you have laid out - and, quite honestly, do not understand it.
If, in fact, you are claiming you do not have any issues with Christ’s Church - yet disagree with the same Church (and not some hateful members) calling homosexual behavior disordered, how do you reconcile these contradictory positions.
Let’s be quite clear about this - we are not talking about temptations - we are not talking of sublimating sexual energy to perform non-sexual activities (exercise, art, music, acts of charity to the poor and needy, etc). We are talking about overt behavior (and also willful thoughts) between people of the same sex performing sexual acts on one another in a distorted immitation of marital intimacy ordered to procreate children.
Here is a link you may find helpful: catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=633
God bless
Let me try this a different way. When my best friend’s son was conceived, I don’t believe God said, “I’m going to create a mental disablility in this child.” Yet, when that child was born, he had a mental disability. You’re right, God does not create our disorders. But some of our disorders are* a part of our creation*. And our disorders don’t have to be a bad thing. In fact, they can be just the opposite in the light of redeptive suffering. Elizabeth, I have appreciated our conversations (now and in the past), but I don’t think we will ever agree on this topic.
This is exactly why the forum doesn’t work and it points to a trend I’ve commented on before. For some reason, it is physically impossible for some people to see or discuss homosexuality as anything other than a behavior. It doesn’t matter what I say or how I say it. Tqualey, I challenge you to find anywhere in this thread or on this entire forum where I have ever denied the sinfulness of homosexual behavior. It is utterly stunning to me, after what I have posted, that anyone would think I am pro-homosexual behavior. I apologize if what I have written has confused you, but I am incapable of explaining it any more clearly. I even said that chastity for me means celibacy. I said it in this thread, a thread debating whether homosexual persons can change their orientation (NOT THEIR BEHAVIOR).
No, actually. You are talking about that.
Tqualey, your response to my post is the exact knee-jerk response I’m talking about. Homosexuality simply cannot be discussed here because it cannot be seen as anything other than a behavior. If I say that I believe “my homosexual orientation is ordered towards an expression of love through service”(which is exactly what I believe), that will be translated (every time) by someone as “my homosexual orientation is ordered towards homosexual behavior. And I condone that sinful behavior.” Now, why that is, I have absolutely no idea. But boy is it frustrating.
See what I mean? Where did I say homosexual behavior isn’t sinful?
See what I mean? Besides mentioning my own celibacy, what could I possibly say to make it more clear that I agree with the Church’s teaching on homosexual behavior?
I couldn’t agree with you more, and I think it’s best if we just leave it at that. I would love to have a good discussion but it simply isn’t possible. My English is only so good and I’ve done the best I can to make my point. I simply don’t have what it takes apparently to make myself clear enough to be understood. For that, I apologize.
Hi there, I understand you and would also like to point out how incredibly futile it is to try to explain it to Tom. I don’t know what it is, but he seems incapable of understanding that homosexuality is more than just actions, indeed previously he strongly implied that I was “pro-gay rights” in another thread, even though I’ve actually said I’d be fine with making sodomy a misdemeanor which isn’t exactly pro-LGBT.