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ralphinal
Guest
And I have eliminated the impossible concept that God reveiled incorrect information and a new concept of religion to Muhammed, so i accept the improbable answers that either he made it all up or, dare I say, it was the DEVIL!!!
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Sam_777
Guest
Thank you inJESUS for that, I think fellow hamba2han you have no excuse now, most translations translate that as “thousands”, however, I will PM this link to our Jewish fellow Kaninchen to acknowledge that the original Hebrew word in “Deuteronomy 33:2” equals thousands not thousand.hamba2han;4430824:
, then what exactly are their reasons to disqualify them from being these ‘saints’ that the Bible refers to?
we gave other passages from the same Bible you quote identifying them as angels but since you cannot digest that your argument is refuted by the same source you quote, i’ll throw the ball to you and wait for you to give me one Islamic reference mentioning ten thousandSSSSS of saints. Not 10 thousand, but thousandSSS, and you surely know the difference. If you cannot, i’ll kindly ask you to starting thinking of a better argument.
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hamba2han
Guest
Why are you splitting hairs about the letter ‘s’?we gave other passages from the same Bible you quote identifying them as angels but since you cannot digest that your argument is refuted by the same source you quote, i’ll throw the ball to you and wait for you to give me one Islamic reference mentioning ten thousandSSSSS of saints. Not 10 thousand, but thousandSSS, and you surely know the difference. If you cannot, i’ll kindly ask you to starting thinking of a better argument.
For the sake of argument, let us say that the “ten thousands of saints” in Deuteronomy 33:2 really means a multiple of 10,000… say twenty or thirty or forty or fifty thousand or indeed whatever figure that you wish to put forward.
My question would still remain → Who are these “ten thousands of saints” that the verse is referring to who will come from “mount Paran” and who will be given a “fiery law”?
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
Like using a fiction to prove a fiction?Quoting a fictional charcater to try to prove a point…nice.
When Deuteronomy 33:2 speaks of “ten thousands” would it also be acceptable to say: “too many people to number”?
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hamba2han
Guest
In order to grasp just how significant the matter is, try to think of it like this:
Suppose that we are working in a company where nobody has seen or heard the Boss.
However, a memo from the Boss has been sent to all of the employees notifying them that there are certain persons in the company who are “model employees” and the Boss himself has praised them in this memo from Him.
Now if one does not know who these “model employees” are, then how would one know the kind of character, conduct and performance that is expected of an employee which will please the Boss?
Again, we need to remember that it is immensely significant that Almighty God Himself has praised these “ten thousands of saints” in the Bible. → And so, if we do not know who these bona fide ‘saints’ are, then how can we be absolutely sure that the way that we ourselves are doing the “job” of worshipping the Lord is making Him be pleased with us… and subsequently enable us to be eligible for promotion to a very much higher position on the Day when we eventually have our “job-appraisal interview” with the Boss?
This is what I meant when I say that knowing who these ‘saints’ were will greatly help us better know who the Lord is and thereby bring us a whole lot closer to Him.
Suppose that we are working in a company where nobody has seen or heard the Boss.
However, a memo from the Boss has been sent to all of the employees notifying them that there are certain persons in the company who are “model employees” and the Boss himself has praised them in this memo from Him.
Now if one does not know who these “model employees” are, then how would one know the kind of character, conduct and performance that is expected of an employee which will please the Boss?
Again, we need to remember that it is immensely significant that Almighty God Himself has praised these “ten thousands of saints” in the Bible. → And so, if we do not know who these bona fide ‘saints’ are, then how can we be absolutely sure that the way that we ourselves are doing the “job” of worshipping the Lord is making Him be pleased with us… and subsequently enable us to be eligible for promotion to a very much higher position on the Day when we eventually have our “job-appraisal interview” with the Boss?
This is what I meant when I say that knowing who these ‘saints’ were will greatly help us better know who the Lord is and thereby bring us a whole lot closer to Him.
I
inJESUS
Guest
splitting hair
you are going to quote scriptures, twist their meaning AND change the actual words? now you either give your source as ten thousandSSS or you just drop it .
S
Sam_777
Guest
Follow up on the “Deuteronomy 33:2” Hebrew verse, here is the link **Kaninchen **provided:
“The LORD came from Sinai; He shone upon them from Seir; He appeared from Mount Paran, And approached from Ribeboth-kodesh, Lightning flashing at them from His right.”
Now we have to know what does *“Ribeboth-kodesh” mean?
*
“The LORD came from Sinai; He shone upon them from Seir; He appeared from Mount Paran, And approached from Ribeboth-kodesh, Lightning flashing at them from His right.”
Now we have to know what does *“Ribeboth-kodesh” mean?
*
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hamba2han
Guest
Here is another prophecy in the Book of Isaiah:
Isaiah, 21:13-17
The oracle concerning Arabia. In the thickets in Arabia you will lodge, O caravans of Dedanites. To the thirsty bring water, meet the fugitive with bread, O inhabitants of the land of Tema. For they have fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, from the bent bow, and from the press of battle. For thus the Lord said to me, “Within a year, according to the years of a hireling, all the glory of Kedar will come to an end; and the remainder of the archers of the mighty men of the sons of Kedar will be few; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.”
These verses unequivocally predict the Hijra and the Battle of Badr.
The prophecy is specifically captioned “The oracle concerning Arabia".
Tema is the name of one of the sons of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh); his progeny inhabited the locality of Madinah, or "in the North of the Hijaz.
Kedar is the name of a son of Prophet Ishmael, whose progeny settled in the Hijaz.
There can be no question that this prophecy relates to the Hijra and Battle of Badr.
In 622 CE, the leaders of the Quraish decided to kill the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and they developed a plan in which one man was chosen from each of the Quraish tribes and they were to attack the Prophet simultaneously. Gabriel informed the Prophet of the plan and instructed him to leave Makkah immediately. The Prophet left with Abu Bakr in the night he was to be assassinated. They went south of Makkah to a mountain cave of Thawr [see Qur’an 9:40], and after staying three nights they traveled north to Yathrib (Madinah) about two hundred fifty miles from Makkah. Upon discovery of his escape, the leaders of Quraish put up a reward of one hundred camels on him, dead or alive. In spite of all their best scouts and search parties, Allah protected the Prophet and he arrived safely in Quba, a suburb of Madinah [Qur’an 28:85]. This event is known as the ‘Hijra’ (migration) and the Islamic calendar begins with this event. The people of Aws and Khazraj in Madinah greeted him with great enthusiasm in accordance with their pledge made at Aqaba less than a year ago during the annual pilgrimage. One by one those Muslims (men and women) of Makkah who were not physically restrained, and who could make a secret exit, left for Madinah leaving behind their properties and homes.
Thus, as predicted by Isaiah, Muhammad (pbuh) and his followers “fled from the swords, from the drawn sword", and as a fugitive, the Prophet (pbuh) was met “with bread", i.e. welcomed by the “inhabitants of the land of Tema [Madina].” (Isaiah, 21:14- 15)
Moreover, in the famous battle of Badr, which was fought against the Prophet Muhammad after a year of the migration, the glory and splendour of Kedar was dissipated, and the fame of their archers was reduced to dust, and their brave were slain.
This fulfilled the portion of Isaiah’s prophecy that: “Within a year, according to the years of a hireling, all the glory of Kedar will come to an end; and the remainder of the archers of the mighty men of the sons of Kedar will be few; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.” (Isaiah, 21:16-17)
For the seekers of truth, the following five points of this prophecy are worthy of serious consideration:
What this means is that another Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled and therefore adding yet more proof of the truth of the Bible…
Isaiah, 21:13-17
The oracle concerning Arabia. In the thickets in Arabia you will lodge, O caravans of Dedanites. To the thirsty bring water, meet the fugitive with bread, O inhabitants of the land of Tema. For they have fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, from the bent bow, and from the press of battle. For thus the Lord said to me, “Within a year, according to the years of a hireling, all the glory of Kedar will come to an end; and the remainder of the archers of the mighty men of the sons of Kedar will be few; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.”
These verses unequivocally predict the Hijra and the Battle of Badr.
The prophecy is specifically captioned “The oracle concerning Arabia".
Tema is the name of one of the sons of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh); his progeny inhabited the locality of Madinah, or "in the North of the Hijaz.
Kedar is the name of a son of Prophet Ishmael, whose progeny settled in the Hijaz.
There can be no question that this prophecy relates to the Hijra and Battle of Badr.
In 622 CE, the leaders of the Quraish decided to kill the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and they developed a plan in which one man was chosen from each of the Quraish tribes and they were to attack the Prophet simultaneously. Gabriel informed the Prophet of the plan and instructed him to leave Makkah immediately. The Prophet left with Abu Bakr in the night he was to be assassinated. They went south of Makkah to a mountain cave of Thawr [see Qur’an 9:40], and after staying three nights they traveled north to Yathrib (Madinah) about two hundred fifty miles from Makkah. Upon discovery of his escape, the leaders of Quraish put up a reward of one hundred camels on him, dead or alive. In spite of all their best scouts and search parties, Allah protected the Prophet and he arrived safely in Quba, a suburb of Madinah [Qur’an 28:85]. This event is known as the ‘Hijra’ (migration) and the Islamic calendar begins with this event. The people of Aws and Khazraj in Madinah greeted him with great enthusiasm in accordance with their pledge made at Aqaba less than a year ago during the annual pilgrimage. One by one those Muslims (men and women) of Makkah who were not physically restrained, and who could make a secret exit, left for Madinah leaving behind their properties and homes.
Thus, as predicted by Isaiah, Muhammad (pbuh) and his followers “fled from the swords, from the drawn sword", and as a fugitive, the Prophet (pbuh) was met “with bread", i.e. welcomed by the “inhabitants of the land of Tema [Madina].” (Isaiah, 21:14- 15)
Moreover, in the famous battle of Badr, which was fought against the Prophet Muhammad after a year of the migration, the glory and splendour of Kedar was dissipated, and the fame of their archers was reduced to dust, and their brave were slain.
This fulfilled the portion of Isaiah’s prophecy that: “Within a year, according to the years of a hireling, all the glory of Kedar will come to an end; and the remainder of the archers of the mighty men of the sons of Kedar will be few; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.” (Isaiah, 21:16-17)
For the seekers of truth, the following five points of this prophecy are worthy of serious consideration:
- The prophecy is related to Arabia.
- The Arabian race is addressed.
- The people of Tema, i.e., the people of Madinah, are commanded to welcome those who have fled.
- Those who fled are oppressed in the extreme.
- The oppressors disintegrate after only one year from the flight.
What this means is that another Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled and therefore adding yet more proof of the truth of the Bible…
I
inJESUS
Guest
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ralphinal
Guest
I wonder why God did not name the city of Yathrib? Did Muhammed flee Mecca during a battle? Did the people of Tema give food and aid to Muhammed?
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cazayoux
Guest
Don’t we always refer to angels as saints?
Saint Michael the archangel
Saint Gabriel
angel only means ‘messenger’
saint means ‘holy one’
seems like you are saying that ‘saints’ cannot be angels, which is obviously not true.
michel
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TomaszA
Guest
Hamba,
In all honesty if you simply read the Genesis account you’d see Abraham never went to Mecca.
This doesn’t mean that at some point some of the descendants of Ishmael went to the hijaaz.
In all honesty if you simply read the Genesis account you’d see Abraham never went to Mecca.
This doesn’t mean that at some point some of the descendants of Ishmael went to the hijaaz.
H
hamba2han
Guest
This excerpt is from Wikipedia:
Cuneiform inscriptions possibly dating from the 6th century BCE have been recovered from Tayma. It is mentioned several times in the Old Testament. The biblical eponym is apparently Tema, one of the sons of Ishmael. Archeological investigation of the site, under the auspices of the German Archaeological institute, is ongoing.
And so, here we can see that this Biblical prophecy is being supported by actual archaeological evidence.
C
cazayoux
Guest
We believe we know some of the ‘employees’ and think that they are great role models, but we are not so arrogant as to believe we know everyone in heaven.
The analogy doesn’t hold.
michel
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cazayoux
Guest
It’s worth noting that, for me, when viewing the history of God’s covenantal relationship with man, Islam just doesn’t fit and cannot be from God.
God relationship is ever-expanding to eventually include the entire human race.
It started with Adam and Eve, a marriage.
Then we see it expanded to a family with Noah.
Then we see it expanded to a tribe with Abraham.
Then we see it expanded to a kingdom (12 tribes) with Jacob (Israel).
Then we see it expanded to an international kingdom with David.
THEN we see it expanded to the entire human race with JESUS.
Islam just doesn’t seem part of the plan.
It doesn’t make sense that God would send another prophet (Mohammad, Joseph Smith, …) after Jesus established the new covenant.
Islam doesn’t fit.
michel
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ralphinal
Guest
You did not answer anything that I asked.
Why did God not mention Yathrib?
Did Muhammed leave DURING a battle?
DId these people actually give him food?
H
hamba2han
Guest
No Muslim will ever claim that he or she knows how God looks like or that anyone has ever seen the Lord.
However, Muslims have no problem at all in claiming that we not only know who they were but we also know the names of many of these “ten thousands of saints”, the names of their wives and children and the precise way how these individuals, families and community lived their lives and worshipped their Lord.
B
Booklover
Guest
You have God’s email address and fax number I suppose?
It’s also amazing how you keep quoting from a “corrupt” book to “validate” Muhammad’s claims!Vickie
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cazayoux
Guest
Ahhhh … as you said … you *don’t *know all, but only many.
How is this any different from us claiming to know some saints, but not all?
michel
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