For those who were or are Evangelical. Is being saved more important than Baptism?

  • Thread starter Thread starter WildCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The man who was lowered down through the roof of the place where Jesus was preaching would not have been healed based on his own faith. It was his friends who brought him to Jesus and lowered him down in front Jesus, their faith was what got the man to Jesus and got him healed. So it is with parents with infants. The parents are exercising their faith on behalf of the infant being baptized.
Isn’t that also implied by this

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy. 1 Corinthians 7:14
 
Of course I am confirming!

Just like you are confirming what I am saying, too. 🙂

You seem to be making it a negative: “not permitted”.

We don’t view it as such. We view it as being consonant with the Truth, Monergistic.

And it appears that you have the same paradigm in which you also understand that you are “not permitted” to proclaim that Jesus did not really rise from the dead.

You anathematize any Christian who says that Jesus didn’t literally rise from the dead, right?
Do I anathematize any Christian who says Jesus didn’t rise from the dead? I haven’t faced that situation personally, but I’m going to say maybe, it depends, probably but not necessarily. So far, the place I know of that I can look to is 1 Corinthians 15.

Verses 3-11 don’t show me an anathema (or “let him be accursed”), but they do show me something wonderful that I’d like for you to look at. See there in verse 3? “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received.” Do you know what this means? First importance! Come on, sista! That means it’s one of those Essentials that can be so tricky for some people! You already have an idea of what it means for you to read something from Scripture then categorize it, identify it, or say something about it apart from what is written there word for word. There are some other places in Scripture where a false teaching gets blasted and you conclude that it is being anathematized by apostolic authority, even if the word “anathema” or “accursed” is not necessarily used. Well, this is an example of the same paradigm being used in a more positive way- Gospel teaching, when identified as such and accompanied by the words “of first importance,” are frequently referred to as “essential teachings.” And beyond that, verses 12-19 give a series of counterfactuals that describe the importance (or the essential character) of the teaching that’s being described. “If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is in vain, your faith also is in vain…your faith is worthless, you are still in your sins.” Now, this is a counterfactual rather than a clear anathema, but I can see why any faithful Christian would anathematize teaching that matches what you have described.

However, I also hope you will see that before you describe this chapter in any other way, the most immediate, overt, and obvious conclusion is that essential teachings are being communicated, and they are being described very clearly as such. There is another conclusion to reach- that teaching in line with the counterfactuals is appropriately anathematized. And I am likely to agree with either of those conclusions. But again, I must remind you- words like “essential,” “anathema,” “accursed,” and “counterfactual” appear nowhere in the text. Nevertheless, we can reliably conclude with great certitude that essential teaching is conveyed, counterfactuals are being described, and if someone theoretically teaches that Christ is not raised (even if it’s strictly academic), then yes, because it opposes essential Gospel teaching “of first importance” and because of the severity of the counterfactuals, that person should probably be anathematized.

Getting back to baptism, though. Is that an essential teaching to those who believe it’s non-regenerative? Protestants vary a bit on this one. Most of them are ok with some things, but they have to draw a line somewhere. Long story short, though, mainline Protestants are more likely to see it as an essential while the rest of Protestantism treats it as a comparatively important non-essential. On the whole, compared to Catholics (re:the OP), baptism is seen as just a bit less important in every way that you could describe its importance. It’s not unimportant, but it’s a bit less important, and things like a common form or formula are not seen as major factors in Christian unity or brotherhood. It depends on exactly what the differences are, of course, but Protestants don’t place as much emphasis on it.
 
Do I anathematize any Christian who says Jesus didn’t rise from the dead? I haven’t faced that situation personally, but I’m going to say maybe, it depends, probably but not necessarily. So far, the place I know of that I can look to is 1 Corinthians 15.

Verses 3-11 don’t show me an anathema (or “let him be accursed”), but they do show me something wonderful that I’d like for you to look at. See there in verse 3? “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received.” Do you know what this means? First importance! Come on, sista! That means it’s one of those Essentials that can be so tricky for some people! You already have an idea of what it means for you to read something from Scripture then categorize it, identify it, or say something about it apart from what is written there word for word. There are some other places in Scripture where a false teaching gets blasted and you conclude that it is being anathematized by apostolic authority, even if the word “anathema” or “accursed” is not necessarily used. Well, this is an example of the same paradigm being used in a more positive way- Gospel teaching, when identified as such and accompanied by the words “of first importance,” are frequently referred to as “essential teachings.” And beyond that, verses 12-19 give a series of counterfactuals that describe the importance (or the essential character) of the teaching that’s being described. “If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is in vain, your faith also is in vain…your faith is worthless, you are still in your sins.” Now, this is a counterfactual rather than a clear anathema, but I can see why any faithful Christian would anathematize teaching that matches what you have described.

.

Getting back to baptism, though. Is that an essential teaching to those who believe it’s non-regenerative? Protestants vary a bit on this one. Most of them are ok with some things, but they have to draw a line somewhere. Long story short, though, mainline Protestants are more likely to see it as an essential while the rest of Protestantism treats it as a comparatively important non-essential. On the whole, compared to Catholics (re:the OP), baptism is seen as just a bit less important in every way that you could describe its importance. It’s not unimportant, but it’s a bit less important, and things like a common form or formula are not seen as major factors in Christian unity or brotherhood. It depends on exactly what the differences are, of course, but Protestants don’t place as much emphasis on it.
What about Matt 18 which describes any dispute not just major disputes?

15 “If your brother or sister** sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.**
 
Do I anathematize any Christian who says Jesus didn’t rise from the dead? I haven’t faced that situation personally, but I’m going to say maybe, it depends, probably but not necessarily. So far, the place I know of that I can look to is 1 Corinthians 15.
Point being made, which I think you understand, is that you don’t “permit” someone who’s a Christian to say, “I believe that Jesus stayed dead. He didn’t rise from the dead. I don’t believe in the Resurrection of Christ.”

So for you to make it seem as if Catholics not being permitted to believe something is somehow an affront to our freedom is…well, not being consistent.
 
That means it’s one of those Essentials that can be so tricky for some people!
Can you give me a list of these Essentials, Mongergistic? And please support your list with verses from Scripture which detail that this is an essential.
 
Point being made, which I think you understand, is that you don’t “permit” someone who’s a Christian to say, “I believe that Jesus stayed dead. He didn’t rise from the dead. I don’t believe in the Resurrection of Christ.”
That’s the point you wanted to make. I wanted to make a different point, just for you. That happens sometimes. You know exactly how this is done.
 
Can you give me a list of these Essentials, Mongergistic? And please support your list with verses from Scripture which detail that this is an essential.
We just did one, and I made it really clear. I also gave you some details about baptism which indicate that it’s not always so clear in every instance. When it is extremely clear, though, I hope you’re not looking the other way.

Were you looking the other way?
 
That’s the point you wanted to make.
So we are agreed, then, that you also do not “permit” Christians to proclaim certain things, and that there is nothing wrong with a paradigm which does not “permit” alternative views, yes?
 
We just did one, and I made it really clear. I also gave you some details about baptism which indicate that it’s not always so clear in every instance. When it is extremely clear, though, I hope you’re not looking the other way.

Were you looking the other way?
Really? It’s not on your list of essentials to believe that there is only One God?

I didn’t see that on your “list”

And I must have indeed been looking the other way when you posted this list. Could you please direct me to that?
 
So we are agreed, then, that you also do not “permit” Christians to proclaim certain things, and that there is nothing wrong with a paradigm which does not “permit” alternative views, yes?
Is it just me, or is the fact that there are tens of thousands of denominations and non denominational churches, prove this point. 😉
 
Is it just me, or is the fact that there are tens of thousands of denominations and non denominational churches, prove this point. 😉
True, dat.

The unholy Trinity of “Me, the Holy Spirit and My Bible” has led to this monstrosity of tens of thousands of denominations, each proclaiming that their interpretations of Scripture are the correct ones.

Eek!
 
So we are agreed, then, that you also do not “permit” Christians to proclaim certain things, and that there is nothing wrong with a paradigm which does not “permit” alternative views, yes?
That was kind of a part of it, but not really the main thing I was communicating to you. If you post again, I expect you to demonstrate that you are listening to someone besides yourself. Actually, I take that back. You should do that, but I don’t expect you to.

And if you look back at the older posts of mine that initially caught your attention, you will notice that I never said there was anything wrong with the practice of anathematizing things in general. (You could assume that I don’t necessarily agree with all anathemas from all people, and you would be correct). What I described was a cause and effect. Cause- Magisterial anathema. Effect- among other things, Catholics are not permitted to believe what I believe concerning baptism. I understand this situation, and I know how it affects the potential for profitability in a discussion of this topic. It has to be handled a certain way and I’m trying to be sensitive to that while still addressing the needs of the OP, even if you’re well past trying to do either of those things.

I may be done talking to you now, because I don’t expect you to become any more respectful or intellectually honest toward me than you have been to this point and I suspect you will get quite a bit worse. Enjoy your holiday, I may look back and see if someone else wants to get my attention but I really don’t expect to see anything from you that makes me want to respond. And whatever points you feel like you’re scoring, enjoy those too.
 
True, dat.

**The unholy Trinity of “Me, the Holy Spirit and My Bible” **has led to this monstrosity of tens of thousands of denominations, each proclaiming that their interpretations of Scripture are the correct ones.

Eek!
That’s as offensive as saying Catholics worship Mary as a queen mother goddess.
 
That’s as offensive as saying Catholics worship Mary as a queen mother goddess.
Not at all, EIF5A. The latter is something false, that Catholics do not proclaim. You can search our Catechism, which is the sure norm for our faith, and you will find no where that Catholics worship Mary.

However, what I have asserted regarding “Me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit” is indeed proclaimed by a multitude of Christians.

Just a cursory google search came up with these sites that proclaim this very thing;

uniquebiblestudy.com/how-to-study-the-bible-b.htm

bible-knowledge.com/how-to-be-led-by-the-holy-spirit-3/

holybiblesays.org/articles.php?ID=257
 
Not at all, EIF5A. The latter is something false, that Catholics do not proclaim. You can search our Catechism, which is the sure norm for our faith, and you will find no where that Catholics worship Mary.

However, what I have asserted regarding “Me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit” is indeed proclaimed by a multitude of Christians.

Just a cursory google search came up with these sites that proclaim this very thing;

uniquebiblestudy.com/how-to-study-the-bible-b.htm

bible-knowledge.com/how-to-be-led-by-the-holy-spirit-3/

holybiblesays.org/articles.php?ID=257
And where does it say to replace God the Father and God the Son with “Me” and “the Bible”, as you insinuated with the “unholy trinity”?

Oh, right. You’re taking things out of context.
 
Not sure what you are saying here, dronald. Could you please explain?
Certainly!

Equating the Holy Spirit as one in an unholy trinity is something one should not allude to or even joke about.

I suppose I just like to be as careful as possible when trying to explain how God can work through believers and His word and I would never equate any of that (Especially the Holy Spirit!) as anything unholy. Not even to prove a point.

As I said, be careful.
 
That was kind of a part of it, but not really the main thing I was communicating to you. If you post again, I expect you to demonstrate that you are listening to someone besides yourself. Actually, I take that back. You should do that, but I don’t expect you to.

And if you look back at the older posts of mine that initially caught your attention, you will notice that I never said there was anything wrong with the practice of anathematizing things in general. (You could assume that I don’t necessarily agree with all anathemas from all people, and you would be correct). What I described was a cause and effect. Cause- Magisterial anathema. Effect- among other things, Catholics are not permitted to believe what I believe concerning baptism. I understand this situation, and I know how it affects the potential for profitability in a discussion of this topic. It has to be handled a certain way and I’m trying to be sensitive to that while still addressing the needs of the OP, even if you’re well past trying to do either of those things.

I may be done talking to you now, because I don’t expect you to become any more respectful or intellectually honest toward me than you have been to this point and I suspect you will get quite a bit worse. Enjoy your holiday, I may look back and see if someone else wants to get my attention but I really don’t expect to see anything from you that makes me want to respond. And whatever points you feel like you’re scoring, enjoy those too.
Look, Monergistic. It is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics. While you are a new member, I suspect that you have been banned before, (a couple of times!). But I will not report you because I don’t want you to get banned again just for trying to be in dialogue with people who know their faith here on the CAFs. As I said I am happy to see you here, trying to understand the Catholic faith. I even like it that you call the Catholic Answers Live radio show. Good for you! (Although you get testy even on that show!)

However, if you keep digging the hole, you will get banned (again?).

Please, please, please follow the model of some of the prolific and wildly charitable non-Catholic Christians here so you can stay and have some seeds planted.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top