For those who were or are Evangelical. Is being saved more important than Baptism?

[ltwin]

I would think long and hard about that statement and then go
Read some history books

1. First christain divorce
2. First Christians exceptence of birth control

200 years ago southern Baptist justified salvery because of sin color

In the 7 years at one protestant church the theology changed on the pastors whim

Ok. So your pastor taught something. Unless your pastor was God, he didn’t change anything but his own opinion. Truth is truth. It’s that whole people and councils may err and have erred thing.

However, the fact that you had a wishy washy pastor or church has no bearing on me or what I believe.

 

[Jon_S_1]

That’s not it at all. It’s more a recognition that a lot can happen and change in one or two generations

A lot can change in one or two generations…that you are better able to understand 2000 years out of the culture and time? Not to mention the folks I mentioned were alive with the Apostles.

I am glad to hear your view of salvation. It’s much better than others and much more in line with the Bible.

I get that Laurie preaches on many things, but he makes it abundantly clear if you go down on the field at Angel Stadium and follow his dinner 's prayer, then you are saved and nothing can change that.

 

[ltwin]

A lot can change in one or two generations…that you are better able to understand 2000 years out of the culture and time? Not to mention the folks I mentioned were alive with the Apostles.

I am glad to hear your view of salvation. It’s much better than others and much more in line with the Bible.

I get that Laurie preaches on many things, but he makes it abundantly clear if you go down on the field at Angel Stadium and follow his dinner 's prayer, then you are saved and nothing can change that.

I’ve never heard one of his altar calls. But I’d be surprised if he implied that that is all you have to do. When you commit an act of faith, that is the beginning of a journey and a relationship with God. That is not the culmination. Altar calls are ubiquitous in the evangelical world. I was born again in an altar call. It certainly does not mean that that is the sum of my Christian life.

And, I’m sure he was speaking to people who had put true faith and trust in Christ, and not just those who “said a prayer.”

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’ve never heard one of his altar calls. But I’d be surprised if he implied that that is all you have to do. When you commit an act of faith, that is the beginning of a journey and a relationship with God. That is not the culmination. Altar calls are ubiquitous in the evangelical world. I was born again in an altar call. It certainly does not mean that that is the sum of my Christian life.

I hope you are right and I am mistaken!!!

It was just not my experience in Evangelical Church. Once you were born again you were saved unless, in some circles you committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Of course they always thought it was good to confess God and ask forgiveness and go through sanctification, but this was more the “get jewels in your crown” theory rather than being saved or not saved.

 

[ltwin]

I hope you are right and I am mistaken!!!

It was just not my experience in Evangelical Church. Once you were born again you were saved unless, in some circles you committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Of course they always thought it was good to confess God and ask forgiveness and go through sanctification, but this was more the “get jewels in your crown” theory rather than being saved or not saved.

There are Once Saved Always Saved Christians. But, as far as I’m aware, Greg Laurie is not one of those.

Tonight I will speak on what every Growing Christan needs to know.

*Why is it that some people grow faster spiritually than others? Why is it that some people make a commitment to follow Jesus Christ and then fall away, while others make a commitment that lasts a lifetime?

It all comes down to doing everything we can to grow spiritually.

God’s Part and Ours

We need to understand that there is God’s part and there is our part.

The Bible tells us to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12). A more accurate translation of that verse would be “Carry to the goal and fully complete.” What this means is we are “working out” what God has “worked in.” . . . . . . *

 

[ltwin]

Edit: Forgot the link: essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=31701

I think Dr. Mohler does an excellent job representing the evangelical position, even though I’m not Baptist either. Also, great job with the scriptural support as well.

 

[Jon_S_1]

There are Once Saved Always Saved Christians. But, as far as I’m aware, Greg Laurie is not one of those.

Tonight I will speak on what every Growing Christan needs to know.

*Why is it that some people grow faster spiritually than others? Why is it that some people make a commitment to follow Jesus Christ and then fall away, while others make a commitment that lasts a lifetime?

It all comes down to doing everything we can to grow spiritually.

God’s Part and Ours

We need to understand that there is God’s part and there is our part.

The Bible tells us to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12). A more accurate translation of that verse would be “Carry to the goal and fully complete.” What this means is we are “working out” what God has “worked in.” . . . . . . *

I found this on The website for Laurie’s Church in the FAQ section. It sounds like he believes Calvin’s election idea, as well as the idea that if your truly saved by saying the sinners prayer, then you will act like a Christian. If you don’t then you weren’t saved to begin with. Sort of a toned down OSAS. Like as long as you bear fruit your good.

Salvation

What Is Salvation?
God knew that humanity would sin and need to be reconciled to Him. At the heart of God’s plan to reconcile sinful humanity to Himself is the Mediator, Jesus Christ (see 1 Timothy 2:5–6). Salvation is deliverance from the power and effects of sin. All have sinned (see Romans 3:23), but we cannot save ourselves. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ died for sinners (see 1 Timothy 1:15; Romans 5:6–8).

Process of Salvation: God’s Side
On the divine side of salvation, God sovereignly acts to secure salvation for sinners through:

Election: Through grace, God chose salvation in Christ for those whom He knew would accept Him (see Ephesians 1:4–5). The Apostle Paul tells us, “For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters” (Romans 8:29 NLT).
Regeneration: God makes us alive through Christ, enabling us to be born again, and to experience a new birth (see John 3:3). Without a new birth, we are “dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1).
Justification: When God justifies us, He declares us guiltless before Him and places all of the righteousness of Christ to our credit. Justification represents both God’s forgiveness of our sins and the righteousness He has accounted to us (see Romans 3:28; 5:1).
Adoption: Adoption means “the placing of a son.” God gives us the full rights of inheritance in His family as though we had been born into it (see Galatians 4:4–5; Ephesians 1:5). As God’s children, we can be confident that He understands us, takes care of us, and will bless us.
Sanctification: When we become Christians, God sanctifies us, or sets us apart positionally, practically, and permanently for Himself (see 2 Thessalonians 2:13). Through sanctification, we become more and more like Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit.
Process of Salvation: Humanity’s Side
Just as there is a divine side of salvation, there is also a human side that shows itself through “free will”:

Faith and Belief: Acknowledging Jesus Christ not only in our heads, but also in our hearts (see John 3:18, 36; 5:24; 6:47; Romans 10:9). Faith is a confiding trust. It involves our intellect, emotions, and will (see Mark 4:16–17; Romans 10:9, 17; Ephesians 2:8–9; Hebrews 11:1, 6).
Acceptance: True faith and belief in Christ will ultimately lead to an acceptance and confession of Jesus Christ as Lord (see Romans 10:9–10). The Apostle John confirmed this when he wrote, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” (John 1:12).
Repentance: This is a sincere and thorough change of mind and heart toward sin (see Psalm 51:3; 2 Peter 3:9). We must not only turn from our sins, but we must also turn to God (see Acts 3:19; 26:18; 1 Thessalonians 1:9).
Product of Salvation
God created us, and Christ purchased us so that we might know Him, walk with Him, and glorify Him (see Ephesians 1:11–12). He also wants us to bear much fruit (see John 15:8) as we invest our lives in service to Him (see Matthew 16:24–26; Galatians 6:10).

We bear fruit by winning others to Christ; by helping them grow spiritually (see Romans 1:13; Proverbs 11:30); by sharing our blessings with others (see Philippians 4:17); by giving praise and thanks to God (see Hebrews 13:15); and by living a changed life through our conduct and character (see Galatians 5:22).

Some people think that because they have “prayed to receive Christ,” they can live as they please. But salvation brings about a changed life (see 2 Corinthians 5:17) and motivates believers to follow God’s purpose for their lives.

Copyright © 2001, 2004 by Harvest Christian Fellowship. All rights reserved.
Unless otherwise noted, all Scripture references are taken from the Holy Bible, New King James Version [NKJV], copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Scripture quotations marked NLT are taken from the Holy Bible, New Living Translation, copyright © 1996. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., Wheaten, Illinois 60189. All rights reserved.
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[Jon_S_1]

I found this on The website for Laurie’s Church in the FAQ section. It sounds like he believes Calvin’s election idea, as well as the idea that if your truly saved by saying the sinners prayer, then you will act like a Christian. If you don’t then you weren’t saved to begin with. Sort of a toned down OSAS. Like as long as you bear fruit your good.

Salvation

What Is Salvation?
God knew that humanity would sin and need to be reconciled to Him. At the heart of God’s plan to reconcile sinful humanity to Himself is the Mediator, Jesus Christ (see 1 Timothy 2:5–6). Salvation is deliverance from the power and effects of sin. All have sinned (see Romans 3:23), but we cannot save ourselves. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ died for sinners (see 1 Timothy 1:15; Romans 5:6–8).

Process of Salvation: God’s Side
On the divine side of salvation, God sovereignly acts to secure salvation for sinners through:

Election: Through grace, God chose salvation in Christ for those whom He knew would accept Him (see Ephesians 1:4–5). The Apostle Paul tells us, “For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters” (Romans 8:29 NLT).
Regeneration: God makes us alive through Christ, enabling us to be born again, and to experience a new birth (see John 3:3). Without a new birth, we are “dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1).
Justification: When God justifies us, He declares us guiltless before Him and places all of the righteousness of Christ to our credit. Justification represents both God’s forgiveness of our sins and the righteousness He has accounted to us (see Romans 3:28; 5:1).
Adoption: Adoption means “the placing of a son.” God gives us the full rights of inheritance in His family as though we had been born into it (see Galatians 4:4–5; Ephesians 1:5). As God’s children, we can be confident that He understands us, takes care of us, and will bless us.
Sanctification: When we become Christians, God sanctifies us, or sets us apart positionally, practically, and permanently for Himself (see 2 Thessalonians 2:13). Through sanctification, we become more and more like Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit.
Process of Salvation: Humanity’s Side
Just as there is a divine side of salvation, there is also a human side that shows itself through “free will”:

Faith and Belief: Acknowledging Jesus Christ not only in our heads, but also in our hearts (see John 3:18, 36; 5:24; 6:47; Romans 10:9). Faith is a confiding trust. It involves our intellect, emotions, and will (see Mark 4:16–17; Romans 10:9, 17; Ephesians 2:8–9; Hebrews 11:1, 6).
Acceptance: True faith and belief in Christ will ultimately lead to an acceptance and confession of Jesus Christ as Lord (see Romans 10:9–10). The Apostle John confirmed this when he wrote, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” (John 1:12).
Repentance: This is a sincere and thorough change of mind and heart toward sin (see Psalm 51:3; 2 Peter 3:9). We must not only turn from our sins, but we must also turn to God (see Acts 3:19; 26:18; 1 Thessalonians 1:9).
Product of Salvation
God created us, and Christ purchased us so that we might know Him, walk with Him, and glorify Him (see Ephesians 1:11–12). He also wants us to bear much fruit (see John 15:8) as we invest our lives in service to Him (see Matthew 16:24–26; Galatians 6:10).

We bear fruit by winning others to Christ; by helping them grow spiritually (see Romans 1:13; Proverbs 11:30); by sharing our blessings with others (see Philippians 4:17); by giving praise and thanks to God (see Hebrews 13:15); and by living a changed life through our conduct and character (see Galatians 5:22).

Some people think that because they have “prayed to receive Christ,” they can live as they please. But salvation brings about a changed life (see 2 Corinthians 5:17) and motivates believers to follow God’s purpose for their lives.

Copyright © 2001, 2004 by Harvest Christian Fellowship. All rights reserved.
Unless otherwise noted, all Scripture references are taken from the Holy Bible, New King James Version [NKJV], copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Scripture quotations marked NLT are taken from the Holy Bible, New Living Translation, copyright © 1996. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., Wheaten, Illinois 60189. All rights reserved.
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And to be clear… I believe the above is very incorrect…

 

[Arizona_Samson]

So why do you not practice the same faith as Polycarp (disciple of the Apostle John) or Clement ( a disciple of Peter) or Ignatius (a disciple of Apostle John) or Irenaeus (student of Polycarp).

Since today’s Catholic Church doesn’t “practice the same faith as Polycarp, Clement, or Ignatius” what is your point?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Since today’s Catholic Church doesn’t “practice the same faith as Polycarp, Clement, or Ignatius” what is your point?

Oh how so??? Do share examples???

 

[pismopal]

No, because aborted babies and babies who died during childbirth never had the chance to be baptized. Granted in a lot of cases I’ve heard of stillborn babies being baptized if the parents want to. I think this is what Rick Santorum did with his deceased child, though correct me if i’m wrong

Anyone can and should Baptize in an emergency and that includes parents…in that sad case.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Since today’s Catholic Church doesn’t “practice the same faith as Polycarp, Clement, or Ignatius” what is your point?

I can start with:

they believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

They believed infant baptism

They believed regenerative baptism

The authority of he one Catholic Church

The authority of bishops

And many more things the Catholic Church still believes today.

Did our understanding of the deposit of faith develop over time…of course, but the deposit of faith is the same now as then, as is seen in the core dogmas.

 

[ltwin]

I found this on The website for Laurie’s Church in the FAQ section. It sounds like he believes Calvin’s election idea,

No. This is the Arminian idea of election. Election is biblical. However, TULIP Calvinists believe God chose who the elect and the reprobate would be. Arminians believe that God foreknows who the elect and the reprobate will be, but God still gives us free will to decide for ourselves. As it says, " God chose salvation in Christ for those whom He knew would accept Him." This is made clear when the document says, “Process of Salvation: Humanity’s Side . . . Just as there is a divine side of salvation, there is also a human side that shows itself through ‘free will.’” Calvinists don’t believe in free will. Furthermore, Calvinists believe there is no “human side” to salvation. It is ALL God.

as well as the idea that if your truly saved by saying the sinners prayer, then you will act like a Christian. If you don’t then you weren’t saved to begin with. Sort of a toned down OSAS. Like as long as you bear fruit your good.

That isn’t clear from this document. What is clear from this document is that Harvest Church, and presumably Laurie, does not believe that saying “a sinner’s prayer” is all that constitutes salvation. It clearly says that salvation is a process.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Since today’s Catholic Church doesn’t “practice the same faith as Polycarp, Clement, or Ignatius” what is your point?

Sounds very…hmmm…Catholic

This was before or around the time of The writing of Revelation.

“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”

“Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

“Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ.”

-“Letter to the Ephesians”, paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”

-“Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

“Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.”

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

 

[Jon_S_1]

No. This is the Arminian idea of election. Election is biblical. However, TULIP Calvinists believe God chose who the elect and the reprobate would be. Arminians believe that God foreknows who the elect and the reprobate will be, but God still gives us free will to decide for ourselves. As it says, " God chose salvation in Christ for those whom He knew would accept Him." This is made clear when the document says, “Process of Salvation: Humanity’s Side . . . Just as there is a divine side of salvation, there is also a human side that shows itself through ‘free will.’” Calvinists don’t believe in free will. Furthermore, Calvinists believe there is no “human side” to salvation. It is ALL God.

That isn’t clear from this document. What is clear from this document is that Harvest Church, and presumably Laurie, does not believe that saying “a sinner’s prayer” is all that constitutes salvation. It clearly says that salvation is a process.

It seems a bit fruitless to argue over third person particular theology. You may ver well be right, but I think we both acknowledge that OSAS exists in many evangelical circles and it is false!

 

[Monergistic]

I think this is a poor way of phrasing things.

It’s no more “not permitted” for Catholics to believe any differently than it is for, say, you to be “not permitted to believe anything different from what you do” regarding the Resurrection of Christ.

You claim that Catholics are no more “not permitted” to believe certain things than I am “not permitted” to believe certain things. The Council of Trent disagrees, and the Magisterial practice of delivering anathemas in general effectively negates your claim.

“If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor, let him be anathema” (Canons on the Sacrament of Baptism, 2).

Trent.

Do you know what an anathema is? It’s the Magisterium saying Catholics are not permitted to believe thus and such. It happens sometimes. This is one of those times.

Do you confirm or deny that this is one of those times?

 

[PRmerger]

You claim that Catholics are no more “not permitted” to believe certain things than I am “not permitted” to believe certain things. The Council of Trent disagrees, and the Magisterial practice of delivering anathemas in general effectively negates your claim.

“If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor, let him be anathema” (Canons on the Sacrament of Baptism, 2).

Trent.

Do you know what an anathema is? It’s the Magisterium saying Catholics are not permitted to believe thus and such. It happens sometimes. This is one of those times.

Do you confirm or deny that this is one of those times?

Of course I am confirming!

Just like you are confirming what I am saying, too.

You seem to be making it a negative: “not permitted”.

We don’t view it as such. We view it as being consonant with the Truth, Monergistic.

And it appears that you have the same paradigm in which you also understand that you are “not permitted” to proclaim that Jesus did not really rise from the dead.

You anathematize any Christian who says that Jesus didn’t literally rise from the dead, right?

 

[Nicea325]

Since today’s Catholic Church doesn’t “practice the same faith as Polycarp, Clement, or Ignatius” what is your point?

The point is that your statement is absurd…how is that for staters?

 

[Nicea325]

It’s a commandment of Jesus. It’s part of becoming a disciple. It’s burying the old man. It’s identifying with the death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. Etc.

It’s not about being safe. It’s about the nature and purpose of baptism. Since baptism is an act of faith, a calling out to God, an appeal toward a good conscience, it serves no purpose for those who have not expressed an act of faith.

Yes…if you are person capable of conducting such a decision,but that is not reality either. I am sorry,but you are conscientiously stating, specific folks are to be excluded because they are not capable of expressing an act of faith. Is that what Jesus truly taught?

 

[LegoGE1947]

Yes…if you are person capable of conducting such a decision,but that is not reality either. I am sorry,but you are conscientiously stating, specific folks are to be excluded because they are not capable of expressing an act of faith. Is that what Jesus truly taught?

The man who was lowered down through the roof of the place where Jesus was preaching would not have been healed based on his own faith. It was his friends who brought him to Jesus and lowered him down in front Jesus, their faith was what got the man to Jesus and got him healed. So it is with parents with infants. The parents are exercising their faith on behalf of the infant being baptized.