For those who were or are Evangelical. Is being saved more important than Baptism?

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AbideWithMe said:
Hey Nicea, there’s no offense in your question.

I need to get some sleep, but here is a link to the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia article on “Baptism” which I’m going to refer to because it makes an important distinction which may help the discussion: newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

If I have time tomorrow I’ll quote some of it, but for now please scroll down to the “Necessity of Baptism” section. There, it talks about two kinds of necessities-- a “necessity of means”
and a “necessity of precept”. I think it’s accurate to say that Evangelicals believe in the necessity of precept but not the necessity of means. So, to the best of my knowledge, no Evangelicals believe someone would be “in danger” (of hell, I assume you mean), as you asked, solely because they’ve failed to be baptised at any age. But they would be failing in obedience and forfeiting a means of blessing and “confirmation and nourishment”.
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Thanks for the clarification and I do understand such positions. 👍
 
Nicea325 said:
Understood,but not all would ever be capable of making such a decision. So I am assuming your community of faith does allow such people to baptism?
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We would only baptize them if they made a confession of faith. In the case of a person with Down’s Syndrome, for example, it would obviously not be anything extravagant or complex. But it would be a basic understanding of the gospel and expression of faith on their intellectual level (not ours).

For those who are not capable of comprehending or expressing such faith at all, we would not baptize. However, we would believe that those persons are loved by God, and He knows their situation. We entrust them into His hands with no fear or anxiety. Like infants who die, we believe that such persons who die are in the presence of God.
 
ltwin said:
We would only baptize them if they made a confession of faith. In the case of a person with Down’s Syndrome, for example, it would obviously not be anything extravagant or complex. But it would be a basic understanding of the gospel and expression of faith on their intellectual level (not ours).

For those who are not capable of comprehending or expressing such faith at all, we would not baptize. However, we would believe that those persons are loved by God, and He knows their situation. We entrust them into His hands with no fear or anxiety. Like infants who die, we believe that such persons who die are in the presence of God.
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Do you believe in original sin?
 
ltwin said:
Faith and repentance constitutes justification, the imputation of Christ’s righteousness. In ongoing sanctification, Christ’s righteousness is infused.
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So how does an infant who dies before repenting and professing faith have it removed?
 
When someone says that they want to make Jesus their personal Lord and Saviour, this sounds to me that they are making a baptism of desire, even tho they don’t know it. How could someone say that and mean it and not want what Jesus wants them to have? Now, they may deny that baptism of water is really necessary, but that is because they do not know that Jesus wants that because they were taught different. So in their good will, they might have that baptism of desire. Can we measure what really goes on in the spiritual world of God in this case?

We do know that the church teaches that faith is a gift and not earned. This is just my opinion, but it sounds like they did get the gift if they are sincere in wanting to make Jesus their Lord and Saviour. Sounds like they do believe to me. Now that isn’t to say that everything is ok.
I would guess that they are baptised in desire, but they could be harmed in a serious way by faulty teaching in other spiritual ways.

It strikes me as similar as a person who has made Jesus “their own”, yet they know from their sins they have drifted away from Him, and then they litterally cry for having let their Saviour down. This to me sounds like a cry from the heart for help and at the same time sincere contrition for what they have done. In this case, why won’t they be forgiven since they have not been told what they need to know to make it in the correct manner? God is a forgiving God and loves all his children. And who knows what goes on in the mind of God.

But by this I’m not saying that this is ok, but that God is a compassionate and loving God who looks to the heart of a person.

Now if someone were to ask if I would trade places with them, absolutely not, for I know what the church teaches, the one that Jesus said, “he who hears you hears me”, and I now know what Jesus really wants.

Just some thoughts.​

“Give me nothing more than your love and grace. These alone, O God, are enough for me.” (hymn)
 
aemcpa said:
So how does an infant who dies before repenting and professing faith have it removed?
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If a child dies before the age of reason, we entrust them into the God’s care, knowing that He is love and His grace is sufficient.
 
ltwin said:
If a child dies before the age of reason, we entrust them into the God’s care, knowing that He is love and His grace is sufficient.
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Can you show that in scripture or is that just Evangelical tradition?
 
This discussion is confusing me…

Are the Catholics here proclaiming that aborted babies and children who die during childbirth go to Hell for not being Baptized? If not then why would you question a Protestant’s view if our beliefs are the same?
 
dronald said:
This discussion is confusing me…

Are the Catholics here proclaiming that aborted babies and children who die during childbirth go to Hell for not being Baptized? If not then why would you question a Protestant’s view if our beliefs are the same?
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Because you’re a hypocrite if you accept it. You have no philosophical basis for accepting it unless you reject sola scriptura.
 
aemcpa said:
Because you’re a hypocrite if you accept it. You have no philosophical basis for accepting it unless you reject sola scriptura.
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Accept what? Catholics have no idea what happens to aborted babies.
 
dronald said:
This discussion is confusing me…

Are the Catholics here proclaiming that aborted babies and children who die during childbirth go to Hell for not being Baptized? If not then why would you question a Protestant’s view if our beliefs are the same?
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No, because aborted babies and babies who died during childbirth never had the chance to be baptized. Granted in a lot of cases I’ve heard of stillborn babies being baptized if the parents want to. I think this is what Rick Santorum did with his deceased child, though correct me if i’m wrong
 
Jon_S said:
Can you show that in scripture or is that just Evangelical tradition?
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We know God is love. It would be inconsistent and contrary to a loving God’s character to consign souls to hell for the sole reason they died before they could even comprehend God or be taught what it is that he requires.
 
ltwin said:
We know God is love. It would be inconsistent and contrary to a loving God’s character to consign souls to hell for the sole reason they died before they could even comprehend God or be taught what it is that he requires.
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That isn’t the sole reason for the punishment of Hell if you believe in original sin.
 
aemcpa said:
That isn’t the sole reason for the punishment of Hell if you believe in original sin.
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Yes, but love covers a multitude of sins. We trust God is both just and sufficient in grace to have hope that infant children are not burning in hell for the sole reason they were not baptized on someone else’s confession of faith.

Evangelicals do not believe that baptism removes original sin. Why then would we baptize our new born children to remove original sin? It would not be a very logical position.
 
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