Forgive me for asking . .

[spockrates]

. . . but what is forgiveness? Seems a simple question, but you might be surprised at the different and conflicting answers I’ve received!

I asked what forgiveness is at the Sacred Scripture forum, thinking that those who knew what the Bible said about forgiveness would know what it means to forgive. I was given many wonderful scriptural references, but the helpful folks there disagreed as to what those sacred texts were saying forgiving really is.

So I asked what forgiveness is at the Catholic Living - Spirituality forum, thinking that those focused on living spiritually as Christians would know what it means to forgive. However, there, too was disagreement about what forgiveness is.

Which brings me here, to the Philosophy forum. It seems to me that three strikes and I’ll be out, but I’ve great hope that three times will be a charm! I mean, who better will know the true nature of forgiving than those who spend their time seeking truth?



It’s an important question to me, personally. You see, Jesus tells me:

“But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”

(Matthew 6:15)

I have cause for concern. For if I don’t know what forgiveness is, then how shall I know how to forgive? and if I don’t know how to forgive, then how will I be able to forgive? and if I’m unable to forgive, then how will I have any chance of being forgiven?



So tell me, please. What is forgiveness?

 

[davidv]

. . . but what is forgiveness? Seems a simple question, but you might be surprised at the different and conflicting answers I’ve received!

I asked what forgiveness is at the Sacred Scripture forum, thinking that those who knew what the Bible said about forgiveness would know what it means to forgive. I was given many wonderful scriptural references, but the helpful folks there disagreed as to what those sacred texts were saying forgiving really is.

So I asked what forgiveness is at the Catholic Living - Spirituality forum, thinking that those focused on living spiritually as Christians would know what it means to forgive. However, there, too was disagreement about what forgiveness is.

Which brings me here, to the Philosophy forum. It seems to me that three strikes and I’ll be out, but I’ve great hope that three times will be a charm! I mean, who better will know the true nature of forgiving than those who spend their time seeking truth?



It’s an important question to me, personally. You see, Jesus tells me:

“But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”

(Matthew 6:15)
I have cause for concern. For if I don’t know what forgiveness is, then how shall I know how to forgive? and if I don’t know how to forgive, then how will I be able to forgive? and if I’m unable to forgive, then how will I have any chance of being forgiven?



So tell me, please. What is forgiveness?

It is all of the things that have already been presented to you.

Why do think there is only one correct definition?

 

[bethanysamuel]

Forgiving is first internal; you decide that you want to be rid of the anger,resentment,pride etc.

You don’t condone any evil done by the offender but you decide that, because God is love, you want to love your enemies aswell as your friends.

You realize that the anger etc. is damaging your soul and you consciously decide to reject Satan and accept God, who is love.

You put God first and say: “Ok, i dont particularly like this person but he/she is my neighbour and no better/worse than me. I hate the sin but not the sinner. I refuse to stay in this angry state and I choose to see the good in the person[created in the likeness and image of God]. I place my trust in you, God, to do the judging and I choose myself to be full of love and mercy”.

That’s the internal part.

The external part is what you actually do. If the person is closed off from God, pray for their conversion. Sometimes praying is all thats appropriate or necessary. However, if you feel that the person is open to listening to you, you can say that you forgive them, and if necessary, apologize for any wrongdoing on your part.

Then leave the rest in God’s hands.

 

[hazcompat]

He who loves seeks the good.

peace

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Forgiveness is exactly what that word means in a dictionary: "The act of Forgiving; Pardon

To Forgive literally means (according to Webster’s Ninth Collegiate Dictionary): “To cease to feel resentment against an offender” as it’s first definition of the word. And that is what it literally is. It does not mean that you forget the wrong, but that you no longer resent the act, or the person that committed the act, that you pardon that person…

Remember that every time you say “The Lord’s Prayer”, you ask God to forgive you exactly as you forgive those that have trespassed against you.

It is difficult for us humans to really do that. It was only after I REALLY thought about the meaning of that prayer, that I was finally able to forgive my mother for her physical, mental and sexual abuse. That does not mean that I have forgotten those acts, but I no longer want to see her punished for them. I was 64 years old when I forgave those actions, which ceased when I was 16. That’s a LONG time to carry around resentment, anger, etc.

The wonderful thing about forgiveness is that it lifts a burden from YOU. It may not even be expressed to the person that damaged/hurt you (in my case, my mother died in 1978), but it frees you from anger, hurt, resentment and a host of other things that are not healthy.

 

[spockrates]

It is all of the things that have already been presented to you.

Why do think there is only one correct definition?

David:

Excellent! Yes, instead of one way of forgiving, there might be many!



Do you think this is the truth I should believe?

 

[spockrates]

Forgiving is first internal; you decide that you want to be rid of the anger,resentment,pride etc.

You don’t condone any evil done by the offender but you decide that, because God is love, you want to love your enemies aswell as your friends.

You realize that the anger etc. is damaging your soul and you consciously decide to reject Satan and accept God, who is love.

You put God first and say: “Ok, i dont particularly like this person but he/she is my neighbour and no better/worse than me. I hate the sin but not the sinner. I refuse to stay in this angry state and I choose to see the good in the person[created in the likeness and image of God]. I place my trust in you, God, to do the judging and I choose myself to be full of love and mercy”.

That’s the internal part.

The external part is what you actually do. If the person is closed off from God, pray for their conversion. Sometimes praying is all thats appropriate or necessary. However, if you feel that the person is open to listening to you, you can say that you forgive them, and if necessary, apologize for any wrongdoing on your part.

Then leave the rest in God’s hands.

Thanks, Beth. What I hear you saying is that forgiving is two things:

1. 
   *]Pacification - or ceasing to feel angry
   *]Prayer - or asking God to assist the forgiven
   
   Regarding (1), this is the most popular answer I’ve heard. Many have told me that this is all that forgiveness is. You are taking it a step further and saying that self-pacification is not enough. You must also do something. Makes sense to me!
   
   
   
   But I wonder if prayer is the same as forgiveness. I mean, I might pray for the Dalai Lama that he might be converted, even though he has done nothing to me that requires my forgiving him. So how is prayer an act of forgiveness? I can see how it is an act of love, but don’t understand how it is a forgiving act.
   
   

 

[spockrates]

He who loves seeks the good.

peace

Peace to you, too! Yes, I agree that he who seeks good loves. But what good must I seek to forgive?

 

[spockrates]

Forgiveness is exactly what that word means in a dictionary: "The act of Forgiving; Pardon

To Forgive literally means (according to Webster’s Ninth Collegiate Dictionary): “To cease to feel resentment against an offender” as it’s first definition of the word. And that is what it literally is. It does not mean that you forget the wrong, but that you no longer resent the act, or the person that committed the act, that you pardon that person…

Remember that every time you say “The Lord’s Prayer”, you ask God to forgive you exactly as you forgive those that have trespassed against you.

It is difficult for us humans to really do that. It was only after I REALLY thought about the meaning of that prayer, that I was finally able to forgive my mother for her physical, mental and sexual abuse. That does not mean that I have forgotten those acts, but I no longer want to see her punished for them. I was 64 years old when I forgave those actions, which ceased when I was 16. That’s a LONG time to carry around resentment, anger, etc.

The wonderful thing about forgiveness is that it lifts a burden from YOU. It may not even be expressed to the person that damaged/hurt you (in my case, my mother died in 1978), but it frees you from anger, hurt, resentment and a host of other things that are not healthy.

Thanks, TOM. I cannot imagine what it must be like to have so much to forgive. I can see you are truly speaking from experience.



Yours is the second (though not as popular) answer that was given to me: Forgiveness means to pardon. What I found was that many of those who said forgiveness means self-pacification (or ceasing to feel angry) did not agree that pardoning was the same as forgiving. What I now find fascinating is that you are saying it’s not either one or the other, but both!

Would you say, then that it is not enough to pacify oneself, but one must also put one’s pacification to action by pardoning the evildoer? Is that what true forgiveness is?

 

[bethanysamuel]

Thanks, Beth. What I hear you saying is that forgiving is two things:

1. 
   *]Pacification - or ceasing to feel angry
   *]Prayer - or asking God to assist the forgiven
   
   Regarding (1), this is the most popular answer I’ve heard. Many have told me that this is all that forgiveness is. You are taking it a step further and saying that self-pacification is not enough. You must also do something. Makes sense to me!
   
   
   
   But I wonder if prayer is the same as forgiveness. I mean, I might pray for the Dalai Lama that he might be converted, even though he has done nothing to me that requires my forgiving him. So how is prayer an act of forgiveness? I can see how it is an act of love, but don’t understand how it is a forgiving act.
   
   

1. 
   I suppose the first part is for yourself, and the second part is for your neighbour. I agree that praying is not forgiving; two different things.
   
   So, you cleanse yourself first, which brings you closer to God, and then, if you feel able to, you reach out a little, if necessary.
   
   I guess part 2 is optional, but in my experience, I find that it’s harder and more humbling to actually do something to help the other person.
   
   If by reaching out you are putting yourself in danger, dont do it, just pray for the person.
   
   But, if you feel ready, the Holy Spirit will sort out the timing] you can do something purely selfless, simply to be charitable.
   
   None of the above is easy though.

 

[tonyrey]

Jesus explained what forgiveness is when He was in agony on the Cross. He asked His Father to forgive the executioners because they didn’t know what they were doing. All evil is a form of ignorance because those who harm others harm themselves more in the long run. They become inhuman and lose their humanity - sometimes to the extent of losing their soul in hell.

That is why we should not bear a grudge against those who treat us badly but pity them. Their lack of love is alienating them from God Who is Love. We should love them as He loves us. Not to forgive them is to descend to their level and alienate ourselves from God. So forgiveness amounts to loving God!

“Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.”

 

[jonathanjlinn]

Here’s a purely a priori idea.

First off, in order to forgive someone, you first must have a ‘problem’ with them. Let this mean holding a grudge, having a problem with, looking at as deserving of punishment etc.

Forgiving then would be the full removal of this ‘problem’ from the conscience. This is to say the full removal of whatever grudge you had held against the person.

However, such grudges are generally brought out of some action. This means another person is simply the causal agent of something which one does not like and thus we ‘find fault’ with the person for having caused such an unpleasant action.

Forgiveness in this sense would mean to realize that the other individual is a fully fallible person, just like oneself, and thus should not be judged only on actions but rather their heart. Since we lack the ability to read hearts, we must submit to the fact that whatever he or she did ought to be looked at as not defining the person. In other words, you can hate the act, but must not hold anything against the causal agent i.e. the person because we lack “the full story”.

When you forgive someone, you are no longer holding the individual accountable for whatever ill that he or she caused. Love requires forgiveness, for without it love loses all meaning and becomes a conditional act, nothing better than a contractual agreement.

 

[GratefulFred]

Some really great answers above.

The routine run of the mill hurts are relatively easy to forgive and let go of the need to be made whole or the false need to retaliate. I know I too am not perfect and hope others forgive me my faults and let downs and occassional attacks. I know I really cannot fuinction as well as I think I can if I constantly focus on my hurts while forgetting how I like in similar uncaring ways.

But we all suffer some major hurts in life and these are harder to forgive as Christ would have us do. Being human it does take time as some have said above. The best we can do is to pray about it to God and perhaps our Confessor or Spiritual Advisor.

It took me decades to realize that God was my father who provided what I needed when I needed. I prayer for the salavation of my earthly father and I was told he converted to Catholicism on his death bed. I knew that no matter what, I could not wish his eternal demise. Perhaps he just was not capable of doing any better. How could I know? AND I know that there are just some things only God can make right. So I asked God for mercy for him.

 

[spockrates]

I suppose the first part is for yourself, and the second part is for your neighbour. I agree that praying is not forgiving; two different things.

So, you cleanse yourself first, which brings you closer to God, and then, if you feel able to, you reach out a little, if necessary.

I guess part 2 is optional, but in my experience, I find that it’s harder and more humbling to actually do something to help the other person.

If by reaching out you are putting yourself in danger, dont do it, just pray for the person.

But, if you feel ready, the Holy Spirit will sort out the timing] you can do something purely selfless, simply to be charitable.

None of the above is easy though.

Thanks, Beth. Yes, it makes sense to me that praying is not forgiving, though praying that God will give me a willingness to forgive might certainly be a prerequisite for forgiving! Saint John the Disciple Whom Jesus Loved also appears to agree with you that praying for the one we forgive is necessary:

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life.

(1 John 5:16)

Perhaps instead of being optional, the two go hand in hand.



So you say that forgiving is a kind of self-pacification. I have to agree, for I don’t see how one can truly forgive while she seethes with anger.



But I wonder if that is ALL that forgiving is, and if merely ceasing to hold a grudge and praying for the wrongdoer is all that God expects of you and me. What makes me wonder are these other words of John:

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

You see, it seems to me that forgiving is an act of love. If I’m correct, then Saint John the Disciple Whom Jesus Also Forgave is telling us it’s not enough to forgive with our thoughts and words. We MUST forgive with our actions. So tell me, what do we DO to forgive with actions and truth?

 

[spockrates]

Jesus explained what forgiveness is when He was in agony on the Cross. He asked His Father to forgive the executioners because they didn’t know what they were doing. All evil is a form of ignorance because those who harm others harm themselves more in the long run. They become inhuman and lose their humanity - sometimes to the extent of losing their soul in hell.

That is why we should not bear a grudge against those who treat us badly but pity them. Their lack of love is alienating them from God Who is Love. We should love them as He loves us. Not to forgive them is to descend to their level and alienate ourselves from God. So forgiveness amounts to loving God!

“Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.”

Thank you, Tony, and welcome to the dialog! What I hear you saying is that forgiveness is:

1. 
   *]Pacification - or rather, a self-pacifying and ceasing to hold a grudge
   *]Pitty - or perhaps mercy, or being lenient by not treating others as harshly as they deserve
   
   Is this what Jesus was asking the Father to do when He prayed this?
   
   “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
   
   (Luke 23:34)
   
   

 

[spockrates]

Here’s a purely a priori idea.

First off, in order to forgive someone, you first must have a ‘problem’ with them. Let this mean holding a grudge, having a problem with, looking at as deserving of punishment etc.

Forgiving then would be the full removal of this ‘problem’ from the conscience. This is to say the full removal of whatever grudge you had held against the person.

However, such grudges are generally brought out of some action. This means another person is simply the causal agent of something which one does not like and thus we ‘find fault’ with the person for having caused such an unpleasant action. …

When you forgive someone, you are no longer holding the individual accountable for whatever ill that he or she caused. Love requires forgiveness, for without it love loses all meaning and becomes a conditional act, nothing better than a contractual agreement.

Well said, Johnathan!



What I’m understanding you to say is that forgiving is:

1. 
   *]Pacification - specifically a self-pacifying and not holding a grudge
   *]Pardoning - or not holding a person accountable or liable for her actions
   
   Am I understanding you correctly?
   
   
   

   … Forgiveness in this sense would mean to realize that the other individual is a fully fallible person, just like oneself, and thus should not be judged only on actions but rather their heart. Since we lack the ability to read hearts, we must submit to the fact that whatever he or she did ought to be looked at as not defining the person. In other words, you can hate the act, but must not hold anything against the causal agent i.e. the person because we lack “the full story”. …

   I’m familiar with the idiom, “Judge the sin, not the sinner,” but I wonder if it’s possible. I mean, if we judge what a person does, how is that not the same as judging who a person is? Are we to think that a person is not defined by what she does? If she is not what she does, then what is she? We might say she is what she thinks, but what she thinks results in what she does. We might say she is what she says, but what she says is also what she thinks. We might say she is what she longs to be, but what she longs to be is what she is not rather than what she is!
   
   I mean, consider what Descartes said: “I think, therefore I am.” It seems to me that it’s also true that, “What I think shows who I am,” and what I think is demonstrated by what I say and do. So judging what I say and do is the same as judging what I think, which IS what I am. After all, Jesus Himself said:
   
   Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
   
   (Matthew 7:20)
   
   Hence, it seems impossible to judge what I say and do without judging me. What do you think?
   
   

 

[spockrates]

Some really great answers above.

The routine run of the mill hurts are relatively easy to forgive and let go of the need to be made whole or the false need to retaliate. I know I too am not perfect and hope others forgive me my faults and let downs and occassional attacks. I know I really cannot fuinction as well as I think I can if I constantly focus on my hurts while forgetting how I like in similar uncaring ways.

But we all suffer some major hurts in life and these are harder to forgive as Christ would have us do. Being human it does take time as some have said above. The best we can do is to pray about it to God and perhaps our Confessor or Spiritual Advisor.

It took me decades to realize that God was my father who provided what I needed when I needed. I prayer for the salavation of my earthly father and I was told he converted to Catholicism on his death bed. I knew that no matter what, I could not wish his eternal demise. Perhaps he just was not capable of doing any better. How could I know? AND I know that there are just some things only God can make right. So I asked God for mercy for him.

Thanks, GratefulFred. Do you have any Fredhead fans?



Good news about your father’s conversion! I guess it’s better late than never.



Based on what you said, I’m thinking you are saying that

forgiveness = mercy

Am I correct?

 

[davidv]

Well said, Johnathan!



What I’m understanding you to say is that forgiving is:

1. 
   *]Pacification - specifically a self-pacifying and not holding a grudge
   *]Pardoning - or not holding a person accountable or liable for her actions
   
   Am I understanding you correctly?
   
   
   
   I’m familiar with the idiom, “Judge the sin, not the sinner,” but I wonder if it’s possible.

1. 
   I would say the to do so is not only possible, but necessary.
   
   A person is not defined what they do, they are defined by what they are. All sins are acts contrary to our true nature and do not reflect who we are (children of God).
   
   Your quote from Descartes below does not accurately portray Catholic understanding of a person. A more acurate equivalent would be: I am, therefore I think. This reflects who we are, a unique creature of God consisting of body and spirit with an immortal soul with an intellect and will.
   

   I mean, if we judge what a person does, how is that not the same as judging who a person is? Are we to think that a person is not defined by what she does? If she is not what she does, then what is she? We might say she is what she thinks, but what she thinks results in what she does. We might say she is what she says, but what she says is also what she thinks. We might say she is what she longs to be, but what she longs to be is what she is not rather than what she is!
   
   I mean, consider what Descartes said: “I think, therefore I am.” It seems to me that it’s also true that, “What I think shows who I am,” and what I think is demonstrated by what I say and do. So judging what I say and do is the same as judging what I think, which IS what I am. After all, Jesus Himself said:
   Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
   
   (Matthew 7:20)
   Hence, it seems impossible to judge what I say and do without judging me. What do you think?
   
   

   To not separate the action from the person is in some way a denial of the goodness of God’s creation. Sin does not destroy this goodness, it only tarnishes it. This is why forgiveness is even possible. Since it is possible, through repentence to remove the tarnish of sin, forgiveness is an acknowledgement of this potential return to holiness.

 

[spockrates]

I would say the to do so is not only possible, but necessary.

A person is not defined what they do, they are defined by what they are. All sins are acts contrary to our true nature and do not reflect who we are (children of God).

Your quote from Descartes below does not accurately portray Catholic understanding of a person. A more acurate equivalent would be: I am, therefore I think. This reflects who we are, a unique creature of God consisting of body and spirit with an immortal soul with an intellect and will.

To not separate the action from the person is in some way a denial of the goodness of God’s creation. Sin does not destroy this goodness, it only tarnishes it. This is why forgiveness is even possible. Since it is possible, through repentence to remove the tarnish of sin, forgiveness is an acknowledgement of this potential return to holiness.

David:

Forgive me for failing to mention how good it is to hear from you, again. I’ve enjoyed our thoughtful and respectful dialogs in the past.



As you probably remember, I find analogies helpful when I’m struggling with understanding something. I also find it helpful to define what the words we are using mean. Let’s use this definition of forgiveness:

forgiveness = pardoning a person

Now let’s apply this definition in this analogy: Consider a Catholic judge presiding over a murder case where the accused is found guilty of 3rd degree murder. Would you or I sincerely say that she is judging the crimes, but not the criminal? No, I don’t think so, for she is judging the criminal BY her crimes! The Catholic judge must make a judgment call as to whether the one found guilty deserves the death penalty, a life sentence, or a suspended sentence. Whatever the judgment, it will be the guilty party (rather than the act of murder) who serves the time in prison or who is put to death!



Therefore, it is the murder she judges, not merely the murderer’s actions.

So too, when you, or I, or an authority of the Church judges a sinner, isn’t it the sinner we judge, not merely her sins? For doesn’t she (not her sins) receive the consequences for her actions from us?



I mean, this seems to be exactly what Saint Paul the Apostle was advising the Corinthians to do:

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? … I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you.

(1 Corinthians 5:1-2,9-12)

Here we see him recommending that the Corinthians judge those Christians who commit sexually immoral acts. He is saying that they should judge the sinner (not merely the sin) for it is the sinner with whom they are to refuse to associate any longer. The sinner, not the sin, experiences the consequences for his actions. That’s NOT forgiving in the sense of pardoning. That is holding the person accountable and liable for his actions, which is the same as judging the person. That’s what I’m thinking, David, but what do you think?

 

[spockrates]

In other words, David, it is the body and soul of the person (tarnished as it is) who suffers the consequences for her sins. These consequences ARE our judgment, so it is the body and soul of the person (rather than her actions) who we judge. We cannot separate the good nature of the person from the bad. One might be guilty, and the other innocent, but both suffer our judgment. For both are in the same person who we judge.



But perhaps I’m wrong? Maybe there is a way for the actions (not the person) to suffer the consequences (or judgment)? If there is, please explain how this is possible.